Sound-proofing...

TelePaul

No, not acoustuc treatment, sound proofing. And not egg cartons either!

Basically wodnering just how efficient it is. I've a pretty decent side garage that I could partition, only it shares a wall with the house next to me - I believe my garage runs parallel to their kitchen, if ya get me.

I was wondering if good sound-proofing would be enough to isolate the sound or am I dreaming? To be honest, I think the fact that it's one solid wall probably scuppers this idea early on, no?

If it can be done effectively, what's the cost of isolating per metre squared?

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

No, not acoustuc treatment, sound proofing. And not egg cartons either!

Basically wodnering just how efficient it is. I've a pretty decent side garage that I could partition, only it shares a wall with the house next to me - I believe my garage runs parallel to their kitchen, if ya get me.

I was wondering if good sound-proofing would be enough to isolate the sound or am I dreaming? To be honest, I think the fact that it's one solid wall probably scuppers this idea early on, no?

If it can be done effectively, what's the cost of isolating per metre squared?

Too many variables to predict for sure, but if it involves loud low frequencies it's a very tough one.

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Too many variables to predict for sure, but if it involves loud low frequencies it's a very tough one.

Yeah I wasn't overly optimistic.

progsound

How much height do you have to play with? To do it right you would probably have to build a floating floor basicaly you build a room within a room so its not cheap. Depending on which way you do the studding you could probably get a subie to do it for around €85 per m2 for the walls and about €130 m2 for the floor (including laminate wood finish) this would be a rough guide (depends on spec) you could get it done cheaper if you ditched the laminate finish. And with so many carpenters out of work id imagine you might find some cheap labour out there. You might not have the head room for a floating floor anyway.

PaulBrewer

Do you have experience or qualifications in this area Progsound?

artvandulet

Hi Telepaul,

Essentially what you need to do, short of spending big bucks on building a room within a room, is to build a wall along the garage wall that is shared with the kitchen.
The best form of sound proofing here is a mass, followed by air, followed by another mass - So you have the existing wall, followed by an air cavity, followed by a new wall.

It is more effective if the two sides of your wall are of different construction so their resonances do not match. Frequencies not attenuated well by one construction may be by another. So a stud frame wall with 2 different types of materials on each side - and the 2 sides decoupled from each other to reduce transmission.

The trick for low frequencies is to make the frame of the two sides of the wall you build slightly loose as this will increase transmission loss in the low end.

If you make sure to seal the wall on the both sides, filling in any gaps, this will reduce the chances of the air in the cavity vibrating, thus transmitting vibrations to the external wall. This means that you shouldnt run any cables through, or mount any sockets on this wall.

And remember, the more mass, the better. So if you can afford to build a heavier brick wall - do it and plaster it to help make it air tight.

Another thing i've found that surprised me is that your cheapo bog standard insulation is BETTER then the high density insulating materials at reducing low end transmission.

If your floor is concrete I wouldnt bother spending money on raising the floor. Suspended floors arent really a good idea anyway. You cant beat concrete. And for your budget - means more for the wall.

I've been doing lots and lots of reading on this lately as I'm working on a project myself. I'd be happy to send you a few particularly good links I've found.
Short of the funds required to get acoustic or sound proofing experts in, I've been able to take this info and advice, including cross sections of wall constructions that were recommended to me and requested quotes for same via bidjob.ie. I think this is probably the cheapest way of getting what I want, rather then relying on builders who probably arent experts in this field to tell me what I need.

TelePaul

Thanks for the execllent post artvandulet! Reading your post and re-evaluating the space I have, this project just doesn't seem viable if I'm being honest. A new wall and a room-within-a-room would take up critical space even before I started inuslating.

artvandulet

No bother. I wasn't suggesting you build a room within a room, just the wall. So if you have a couple of feet on that side - then do it.:D

progsound

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Do you have experience or qualifications in this area Progsound?

On the cost control side of things yes i have a degree in construction economics ie quantity surveying.

On the tecnical side of it i have no qualification in acustics other than what i read on the internet and my own experience in the construction field. (sound transmition and sound proffing was covered as part of my degree though.)

You can read up on the subject here where you can talk to world leaders in the field http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php

Some info on isolation http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/audio/pages/Isolation.htm

Current building practice http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1646,en.pdf

Also the Building construction handbook has some usefull info on sound tranmission and isolation.

Depending on your isolation requirements you may not need the floating floor as already stated although this will depend on the existing floor contruction and your requirements as you will get flanking transmission from the floor to the walls and possibly dirct transmision if the floor is a single pour ie block wall built directly off conc floor with no wall fdn. It all depends on how much sound getting through is acceptable for you.

PaulBrewer

Interesting.

In your opinion does the average builder have any sense of acoustics? Like he might have a general sense of what a Plumber does.

I guess in the Apartment age that Ireland is in isolation building knowledge is more common.

But in all my time (26 years) I've never been in a studio that wasn't built by a actual studio builder that was 'complete' i.e. there was always something fundamentally wrong.

My dealings with Acousticians here has been less than satisfactory too. Simple musical concepts like diffusion seem to be a mystery!

We're working on a large Dublin 'Theatre' here and one of the countries 'top' acoustical companies were involved in the room design.

The Acoustician speced a load of flown stuff to drop the RT time reasonably, but the side walls are untreated leaving slapback reflections that would shave your chin for you.

Basic, day one stuff I'd have thought ......

but I'd have been wrong:rolleyes:


It's an area in need of experts - of which there are none I know of in this country.

progsound

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Interesting.

In your opinion does the average builder have any sense of acoustics?

No not acoustics to be fair its a specialised field. They would have however an understanding of sound transmission and isolation as its in the building regs but it would not be a priority other than meeting minimum requirements. Sound tranmission and isolation is however thought in 3rd level education for most construction professionals.

In most builders eyes there are much more important elements to worry about. Ie structural, electrical + mecanical services, thermal insulation, joinery and finishes ect sound isolation would be down the pecking order if you know what i mean.

If i ever get to build my own studio i would probably get the design done outside of ireland there just is not that much experience in this country in terms of studio design.

iquinn

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Interesting.

In your opinion does the average builder have any sense of acoustics? Like he might have a general sense of what a Plumber does.

I guess in the Apartment age that Ireland is in isolation building knowledge is more common.

But in all my time (26 years) I've never been in a studio that wasn't built by a actual studio builder that was 'complete' i.e. there was always something fundamentally wrong.

My dealings with Acousticians here has been less than satisfactory too. Simple musical concepts like diffusion seem to be a mystery!

We're working on a large Dublin 'Theatre' here and one of the countries 'top' acoustical companies were involved in the room design.

The Acoustician speced a load of flown stuff to drop the RT time reasonably, but the side walls are untreated leaving slapback reflections that would shave your chin for you.

Basic, day one stuff I'd have thought ......

but I'd have been wrong:rolleyes:


It's an area in need of experts - of which there are none I know of in this country.

+1 as they say.
I happened to be talking a well known architect a few months ago and he said basically the same thing. He didn't seem so confident in the acousticians in ireland.

Maybe it's down to the fact that in order to really study the subject you'd have to go abroad? Or at least get some decent work experience outside of Ireland perhaps.
Or, maybe it's just not a viable career in ireland?

personally i think it's a fascinating subject.

PaulBrewer

progsound wrote: »

but it would not be a priority other than meeting minimum requirements.

I'm sure -

We're using a UK company

www.munro.co.uk

They're a terrific company with an incredible history.

PaulBrewer

iquinn wrote: »

personally i think it's a fascinating subject.

Indeed, it's often the difference between a Studio and a bit of gear in a room .......

iquinn

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Indeed, it's often the difference between a Studio and a bit of gear in a room .......

now there's a tag line...


Brewer's Acoustic Consultants
"the difference between a Studio and a bit of gear in a room"