Driving licence categories - trailers etc.

pburns

If you hald a B licence (car) are you automatically entitled to an EB licence (car with trailer >750kg?)

I've had mixed answers to this anecdotally...

Cookie_Monster

used to but not any more

Cookie_Monster

you can get M and W only with your B licence now AFAIK

biko

You don't get M nowadays. I'll see if I can find the page for this here somewhere.
edit http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=57210042

Alanstrainor

It used to be given with your B license, but these days it's a separate test. You would have to obtain an EB learner permit and display "L" plate while learning to drive with a trailer. You would also be bound by all the laws current "Learner Permit" holders are bound to. Eg, you would be expected to have a fully licensed EB driver accompanying you who has held their license for at least 2 years.

Cookie_Monster

Alanstrainor wrote: »

You would also be bound by all the laws current "Learner Permit" holders are bound to. Eg, you would be expected to have a fully licensed EB driver accompanying you who has held their license for at least 2 years.

I'm sure they will become quite difficult to come across in the future.
Granted most people with a B licence now from more than a few years ago will have it as standard but less and less so going forward..

Cookie_Monster

My mum got A1, B, EB, C1, EC1 and W all with just a B test.

How times have changed

Del2005

I only got my EB when I got an EC licence. The one in the Tax office was questioning why I'd ticked EB when I didn't have it on my old licence or pass cert, had to explain that if I was allowed to drive an Artic surely I was able to drive a car and trailer. She then asked the person next to her what E stood for

Wishbone Ash

OP - as has been said, you are no longer automatically entitled to it. Most people who have it, do so because they got it automatically with their B licence or they got it by default after passing a larger trailer category.

EB tests are quite rare.

Del2005 wrote: »

I only got my EB when I got an EC licence. The one in the Tax office was questioning why I'd ticked EB when I didn't have it on my old licence or pass cert, had to explain that if I was allowed to drive an Artic surely I was able to drive a car and trailer. She then asked the person next to her what E stood for

(You would also be entitled to EC1 also.)

I too find that the staff at the counter in MTO's are very uninformed about anything other than category B. A few years ago, I was frustrated trying to explain that, as the holder of an EC and a D, I was entitled to an ED and ED1 by default. It's written in legislation but I was passed from pillar to post with each one saying it wasn't possible to get any category added to my licence without a test. :rolleyes:

Finally some big gun was wheeled out who confirmed that I was perfectly entitled to it.

Del2005

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

OP - as has been said, you are no longer automatically entitled to it. Most people who have it, do so because they got it automatically with their B licence or they got it by default after passing a larger trailer category.

EB tests are quite rare.


(You would also be entitled to EC1 also.)

I too find that the staff at the counter in MTO's are very uninformed about anything other than category B. A few years ago, I was frustrated trying to explain that, as the holder of an EC and a D, I was entitled to an ED and ED1 by default. It's written in legislation but I was passed from pillar to post with each one saying it wasn't possible to get any category added to my licence without a test. :rolleyes:

Finally some big gun was wheeled out who confirmed that I was perfectly entitled to it.

I knew I could have had an EC1 but didn't bother as that's for 3500kg to 7500kg and EC is for 3500kg+. But when I renewed they gave it to me anyway.

Wishbone Ash

Del2005 wrote: »

I knew I could have had an EC1 but didn't bother as that's for 3500kg to 7500kg and EC is for 3500kg+. But when I renewed they gave it to me anyway.

That's what I meant - that you should have it automatically. I thought that they hadn't added it on the licence for you!

derry

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

That's what I meant - that you should have it automatically. I thought that they hadn't added it on the licence for you!

What I know
My brothers licence has EB

He did his test in the 1980 era
So the older licence included B and EB automaticaly

I sat my test in 2005 ( I had a licence but from country not on the swop system )

This allwed me have the B but not EB

To get EB I have to go and do a test with car and >750 trailer with L plate arrive the place with a suitable EB licence holder show insurance as provisional for towwing the >750KG trailer and any other paper work NCT whatever and do the driving test with the trailer

greatest load of ......... but thats the system best I can see

It means that most people with new licence will opt to drive 3.5 ton mobile campers instead to have car with caravan in tow

Its just a way to force caravans and farmers cattle and horse boxxes of the road and make everybody do big campers and cattle and horse trucks


it should be something more like after 2 years of a B licence your automatically given a EB licence

Its Probably Easier to get a C licence and mayby that automaticlly gives you a EB licence

Another similar thread with more info


Derry

PS forgot to include the link
here it is

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055200003

Silvera

Ok, some clarification re above posts -

- You do not automatically get EB when you pass B ...it's a seperate test.

- A few school of motoring centres can provide a jeep and trailer for EB lessons and test (e.g. Naas school of motoring)

- You DON'T automatically get EB when you pass category C (rigid Truck) ...I know, I passed C in 2003. You would only get EB if you passed EC (Artic).


- With a B licence you can tow :

A trailer with a gvw less than the ulw of the towing vehicle provided the combination does not exceed a gvw of 3500kg (i.e. you can tow a trailer larger than 750kg within these limitations).

The UK govt fought for this derogation many years ago so that owners of caravans, motor sport competitors, etc would not have to take an extra test in order to tow caravans, small car transporters, etc.
The UK DVLA website explains the towing categories a bit better than the RSA webiste (though they dont use 'gvw' and 'ulw' on the UK site).


- The only time the >750kg limit strictly applies to category B is if, for example, you are driving a large van/jeep etc with a gvw of 3500kg - then you could only tow a > 750kg trailer behind it (i.e. total gvw of 4250kg).

derry

Silvera wrote: »

.....snip.....

- The only time the >750kg limit strictly applies to category B is if, for example, you are driving a large van/jeep etc with a gvw of 3500kg - then you could only tow a > 750kg trailer behind it (i.e. total gvw of 4250kg).

Man that is now clear as mud
Try explaining that lot to your local garda who stops you while towing a caravan

Anyway thanks for making my prefered choice to buy a caravan instead a camper van more possible

Hopefully what you say is what applies to ROI as not everything from UK is the same here


My memory is the towing vehicile must be twice the weight of the trailer so for example a 2000 kilo car Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) can maximum tow a 1000KG trailer making a total of 3000KG

With that logic the problem is region is the 3000Kg car towing a 1,500 kg trailer which makes 4500 which is more than the 4250 rule which suggests the trailer should in that case not exceed 1000 kg tobe inside the 4250 rule


Out of curiousity will the EB let you then allow you to be 3,500 Kg GVW towing another 50% 0f that 1,750Kg making a total of 4750 Kg

soory the previous post should have included the link for the same subject

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055200003

in it some info on the subject but also a interesting vidio of small car towwing big caravan that goes pear shaped

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flyxlk-csj0&feature=related


Derry

BrianD3

The Gardai generally don't have a clue when it comes to the rules for towing trailers. Insurance companies might be more informed though and might refuse to pay out/cover only 3rd party in the event of a claim where the insured is towing a trailer without having the correct licence.

Silvera is correct about the rules. In case it still isn't clear you can tow a trailer with a B licence:

[If the d.g.v.w of the combination is <3500 kg AND the d.g.v.w of the trailer is less than the unladen weight of the car
OR
If the d.g.v.w of the trailer is <750 kg]
AND
The trailer's actual weight at time of towing does not exceed the max towing weights of the towing vehicle

Where d.g.v.w is the max allowable laden weight. Cars should have the unladen, d.g.v.w and max braked/unbraked towing weights stated in the handbook. Trailers should have their weights stated on the hitch plate.

Of course this being Ireland many trailers are homemade, have no plate and nobody has a clue what weight they are, what the d.g.v.w is, whether they require brakes or not etc. Also there is an attitude that once a car has a diesel engine it can tow any trailer and it doesn't matter what licence the driver has. Eg the other day I saw a woman in a Seat Cordoba towing a double horsebox with two horses on board, even if the driver has an EB licence she's well exceeding the max towing weight of her vehicle.

derry

I thought this vidio of a jack knive caravan tow done on a test might be informitive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4MQEYe4_0Y&feature=related

derry

Del2005

Silvera wrote: »

Ok, some clarification re above posts -

- You do not automatically get EB when you pass B ...it's a seperate test.

- A few school of motoring centres can provide a jeep and trailer for EB lessons and test (e.g. Naas school of motoring)

- You DON'T automatically get EB when you pass category C (rigid Truck) ...I know, I passed C in 2003. You would only get EB if you passed EC (Artic).


- With a B licence you can tow :

A trailer with a gvw less than the ulw of the towing vehicle provided the combination does not exceed a gvw of 3500kg (i.e. you can tow a trailer larger than 750kg within these limitations).

The UK govt fought for this derogation many years ago so that owners of caravans, motor sport competitors, etc would not have to take an extra test in order to tow caravans, small car transporters, etc.
The UK DVLA website explains the towing categories a bit better than the RSA webiste (though they dont use 'gvw' and 'ulw' on the UK site).


- The only time the >750kg limit strictly applies to category B is if, for example, you are driving a large van/jeep etc with a gvw of 3500kg - then you could only tow a > 750kg trailer behind it (i.e. total gvw of 4250kg).

You need an EC1 licence to go to this weight. With a B or EB licence the max weight you can have is 3500kg and no more.

From the RSA site.

Towing a Trailer
If you hold a category B licence and wish to tow a trailer you may do so provided
(1) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle and the combination does not exceed 3500 kg or
(2) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed 750 kg.
If you wish to tow a heavier trailer you must hold a category EB licence.
The holder of a driving licence in category C1, C, D1 or D may tow a trailer provided the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed 750 kg. Categories EC1, EC, ED1 or ED (depending on the towing vehicle) must be held in order to tow trailers in excess of 750 kg.

http://www.rsa.ie/SERVICES/RSA_Services/Driver_Licensing.html#Towing_a_Trailer

Actually reading that it's as clear as mud. I'd just got the part that you can tow a big trailer with a B licence and now I think you can go over the weight limit on one aswell So what's the point of saying the max weight for a B is 3500kg if you can actually go to 4250kg?

BrianD3

I think the rules for B licences are relatively clear, you can indeed go to 4250 total d.g.v.w if your trailer is <750 kg d.g.v.w.

Now I'm less sure of the limit for total d.g.v.w for EB licences, it makes no sense for it to be 3500 kg so I suspect that it is either
-7500 kg
or
-8250kg

And obviously you still mustn't exceed the towing limits of the tow car. And the tow car must be in category B.

I don't know where I got the 8250 figure from but i think I read it on some UK caravan website. Licence rules should be standard across the EU and things are generally a lot better explained in UK documentation than over here.

derry

NB this table might be wrong so you need to do your own checking

table for B licence in KG
( weight of trialer full is arbitary chosen weight .
If the weight empty and full is the same it means trailer is empty
If the weight is double it means trailer weight plus cargo weight total so 750 trailer weight and 1500 weight of trailer full mean the weight of the trailer is 750 and the cargo it carrys is another 750 which makes total 1500 )
Weight =Wt
Weight in red is more unsure for rules

Wt of car Wt empty trailer Wt trailer full yes/no empty Wt.

1000........750...............750.......................yes 1750
1000........750..............1500......................yes 1750
1000......1000...............1000......................yes 2000
1000.......1000..............2000......................yes 2000
1000.......1500..............1500......................NO 2500
1000.......1500..............3000......................No 2500

2000........750................750........................yes 2750
2000........750...............1500.......................yes 2750
2000.......1500...............1500.......................yes 3500
2000.......1500...............3000.......................yes 3500
2000.......2000...............2000.......................NO 4000
2000........2000..............4000.......................NO 4000



3000.........500................500........................yes 3500
3000.........500...............1000.......................yes 3500
3000.........750...............1500.........................yes 3750
3000.........750...............3000.........................yes 3750
3000........1000...............1000........................Yes 4000
3000........1000...............4000........................YES 4000
3000........1250................1250........................Yes 4250
3000........1250................2500........................YES 4250
3000........1500................1500........................NO . 4500
3000.........1500...............3000........................NO 4500


3500..........500.................500.......................yes 3500
3500..........500...............1000.......................yes 3500
3500..........750................750........................yes 4250
3500..........750...............3000.........................yes 4250
3500.........1000...............1000........................NO 4500
3500.........1000...............4000........................NO 4500

BrianD3

Are those car weights the unladen weight or the d.g.v.w weight of the car? I think you'll need two columns for the car weights to differentiate between the two because both are relevant

Also, from a licence point oif view, the actual weight of the trailer (trailer itself + cargo) at time of towing is not really relevant, what is relevant is the total weight that the trailer COULD be i.e. the d.g.v.w. An empty double horsebox might weigh 750 kg. A double horsebox with one average horse in it might weigh 1250 kg. But if the horsebox has d.g.v.w of 2000 kg, that 's the relevant figure for licence purposes

Examples

Medium sized family car
unladen weight 1300 kg
d.g.v.w 1800 kg

Small car transporter
Unladen weight 600 kg
d.g.v.w 1500 kg

In this case, with a B licence it might initally appear that you can tow the above transporter with d.g.v.w of 1500 because 1800+1500 is <3500. However the d.g.v.w of the trailer must not exceed the unladen weight of the car. Which is 1300 kg. So 1300 kg d.g.v.w is the max size trailer you can tow with this car with a B licence. So you cannot tow that car transporter even if it's empty or lightly loaded.

Now if you decide to use a heavier car
Exec saloon
unladen weight 1600 kg
d.g.v.w 2100 kg

Your unladen weight is greater than the d.g.v.w of the transporter so that condition is OK. But now you've got a total d.g.v.w of 2100 + 1500 = 3600. So now you're in breach of the 3500 kg rule

derry

Re BrianD3:

Thanks hadnt factored in the the dgvw Driving gross vehiche weight versus Unleaden weight

But it serious infers that towing most any trailers like we did in the old days will break the new rules and better to have EB to tow anything


The ball park rules is the unladen weight of the car compared to the driving gross laden weight dgvw of the trailer for checking if the trailer is too big for the car to tow

And to be below the 3500kg rule it is the dgvw of the car and the dgvw trailer must be below 3500KG

At what point in the equasion can you have 750 kg dgvw trailer when the towing vehicle is 3500kg eg is it only exacly at 3500 kg or if you had 3000kg gdgvw car can you now tow a dgvw trailer of 1250 or is the cut of point something like a dgvw 3400Kg car





Derry

BrianD3

derry wrote: »

At what point in the equasion can you have 750 kg dgvw trailer when the towing vehicle is 3500kg eg is it only exacly at 3500 kg or if you had 3000kg gdgvw car can you now tow a dgvw trailer of 1250 or is the cut of point something like a dgvw 3400Kg car

My understanding is that you can only exceed 3500 d.g.v.w total if you trailer is <750 kg. So the max is 4250 but if your car is lighter than 3500 you can't make up the difference with a heavier trailer.

Eg if your car is 3400 kg that doesn't mean you can tow a 850 kg trailer, 750 is still the max. Similarly a 3000 kg car canot tow a 1250 kg trailer, 750 kg is the max.

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned in the thread - pay attention to the weight on the car's tow hitch. This has nothing to do with licences but has to do with adhering to the towing specs of your vehcile. With single axle trailers especially,the hitch weight can be critical. Too much weight near the back of the trailer and the trailer will try to lift up the back of the tow car. Too much weight in the front of the trailer and the back of the tow car could be close to scraping the ground. AFAIK tow hitch load for cars should be around 50-80 kg but it depends on the car. You will get a rough idea of how much weight will be on the hitch if you lift the trailer onto the hitch by hand

Wishbone Ash

derry wrote: »

What I know
My brothers licence has EB

He did his test in the 1980 era
So the older licence included B and EB automaticaly

He would also be entitled to a C1 back then.

derry wrote:

greatest load of ......... but thats the system best I can see

It means that most people with new licence will opt to drive 3.5 ton mobile campers instead to have car with caravan in tow

'Rigid' vehicles are much safer as their engine, brakes, lights etc. are designed for that vehicle. Under the old system, there were many accidents caused by drivers towing very heavy unbraked and unlit trailers with light cars.

derry wrote:

Its just a way to force caravans and farmers cattle and horse boxxes of the road

In fairness farmers have been well looked after by the Government regarding driving licences over the years. Under the present system, a 16 year old on the first day of his category W Learner Permit is legally entitled to drive, on public roads, a tractor drawing two trailers up to a maximum lenght of 75 feet provided he doesn't enter towns with a population exceeding 10,000 people. Hardly putting farmers off the road!

And the normal maximum weight/height/lenght limits on public roads do not apply to agricultural vehicles during the months of July, August, September and October.

Silvera wrote: »

You would only get EB if you passed EC (Artic).

A person who has passed an EC1 or a ED would also be entitled to a EB by default.

BrianD3 wrote: »

The Gardai generally don't have a clue when it comes to the rules for towing trailers.

I also find that the average Garda's knowledge of the regulations governing trailers is extremely lacking.

BrianD3 wrote: »

My understanding is that you can only exceed 3500 d.g.v.w total if you trailer is <750 kg. So the max is 4250 but if your car is lighter than 3500 you can't make up the difference with a heavier trailer

That would be my understanding of the regulations also.

Wishbone Ash

Wishbone Ash wrote:

A person who has passed an EC1 or a ED would also be entitled to a EB by default.

.....and I forgot about those who pass an ED1 test - they would also be entitled to an EB Licence.

unkel

BrianD3 wrote: »

you can only exceed 3500 d.g.v.w total if you trailer is <750 kg. So the max is 4250 but if your car is lighter than 3500 you can't make up the difference with a heavier trailer.

That's exactly how I've always interpreted it.

looserock

Its all a little tricky, would someone please confirm if I understand correctly.

With my b licence and 1300 kg family car I can legally tow a twin axle trailer with a gross weight of 1299 kg.

I don't need a van or jeep to tow a twin axle trailer?

My trailer has brakes on all four wheels, does it need to? or will brakes on only two wheels do?

uriah

What about the yummy mummy driving the big 4X4 pulling the horse-box..what license is needed?

TestTransmission

uriah wrote: »

What about the yummy mummy driving the big 4X4 pulling the horse-box..what license is needed?

Hopefully she knows better than to drag up old threads