RFID embedded Euro notes are used to secretly track unauthorized quantities of cash

Run_to_da_hills

I was reading up about this for a number of years ago that all Euro notes since 2005 have powder chips embedded in the fibres. Is this true? If it is one would want to b e a fool trying to smuggle any quantity of unauthorised cash in or out of the country as you would be a sitting duck.

RFID notes just like RFID chiped cigarette packs can be detected by scanner from up to several feet away no matter how well they are concealed.

Apparently you can of zap the embedded chips by placing the notes it in a microwave but there is a very close tolerance between destroying the chip and bursting the notes into flames :eek:


http://www.propagandamatrix.com/010304rfidtagsineuros.html

http://www.ssrichardmontgomery.com/rfidmoney.htm

Diogenes

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I was reading up about this for a number of years ago that all Euro notes since 2005 have powder chips embedded in the fibres. Is this true? If it is one would want to b e a fool trying to smuggle any quantity of unauthorised cash in or out of the country as you would be a sitting duck.

Are you planning on smuggling large quantities of cash into and out of the country?

RFID notes just like RFID chiped cigarette packs can be detected by scanner from up to several feet away no matter how well they are concealed.





Apparently you can of zap the embedded chips by placing the notes it in a microwave but there is a very close tolerance between destroying the chip and bursting the notes into flames :eek:


http://www.propagandamatrix.com/010304rfidtagsineuros.html

http://www.ssrichardmontgomery.com/rfidmoney.htm

It's been discussed but I don't think it's been implemented and it was more of counter fitting measures.

Run_to_da_hills

Diogenes wrote: »

Are you planning on smuggling large quantities of cash into and out of the country?.

Naw, if i was I wouldn't be bringing up the subject in public. :rolleyes:

Diogenes wrote: »

It's been discussed but I don't think it's been implemented and it was more of counter fitting measures.

Thats what they would like you to believe :rolleyes:

humanji

...in the same way you would like us to believe that it's the start of an Orwellian future...

tony 2 tone

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I was reading up about this for a number of years ago that all Euro notes since 2005 have powder chips embedded in the fibres. Is this true? If it is one would want to b e a fool trying to smuggle any quantity of unauthorised cash in or out of the country as you would be a sitting duck.

RFID notes just like RFID chiped cigarette packs can be detected by scanner from up to several feet away no matter how well they are concealed.

Apparently you can of zap the embedded chips by placing the notes it in a microwave but there is a very close tolerance between destroying the chip and bursting the notes into flames :eek:


http://www.propagandamatrix.com/010304rfidtagsineuros.html

http://www.ssrichardmontgomery.com/rfidmoney.htm

You try microwaving any of your own money to validate the clams made on the site? 2 burns that could have been caused by any thing on 2 notes proves nothing. There was no video showing the notes being "treated" in the microwave. Looks like BS

Diogenes

tony 2 tone wrote: »

You try microwaving any of your own money to validate the clams made on the site? 2 burns that could have been caused by any thing on 2 notes proves nothing. There was no video showing the notes being "treated" in the microwave. Looks like BS

Frankly if you're inclined towards microwaving money, you probably didn't deserve it have it in the first place.

amacachi

Ya gotta microwave your money, only way to make the coccaine taste good.

tony 2 tone

The RFID chips would have to be fairly tough to survive being battered around in peoples pockets too.

bonkey

The most rudimentary understanding of what RFID chips are and how they work would make it trivial to determine and demonstrate the truth behind such claims...were they true.

Conversely, one can't prove a negative.

The onus, therefore, is on the believers to learn what RFID is, how it works, and then to perform the obvious resultant test which would prove their claims true. Then they can document it and allow any interested party to perform it themselves independantly.

Where is this test?

Run_to_da_hills

bonkey wrote: »

The most rudimentary understanding of what RFID chips are and how they work would make it trivial to determine and demonstrate the truth behind such claims...were they true.

Conversely, one can't prove a negative.

The onus, therefore, is on the believers to learn what RFID is, how it works, and then to perform the obvious resultant test which would prove their claims true. Then they can document it and allow any interested party to perform it themselves independantly.

Where is this test?

According to this article they were introduced as a counterfeiting measure by the European Central Bank (ECB) as of 2007. If one wanted to prove its truth one would have to find out what frequency they are operating at and then purchase a scanner that would cover the range.

I would presume the banks would be the first places to have such equipment and give it a matter of time scanners would appear on places like EBay.

http://counterfeitdetector.blogspot.com/2007/07/rfid-tagged-euro-banknotes-now-in.html

tony 2 tone wrote: »

The RFID chips would have to be fairly tough to survive being battered around in peoples pockets too.

These would be so minute that they could be protected in behind the metal strip that would also double up as the antenna. This is another article on how successful the Hitachi Powder chip has been in up to 25 million admission tickets in Japan, they have since gone smaller again.

http://www.idtechex.com/printedelectronicsworld/articles/hitachi_powder_chip_japan_00000823.asp

Ciaran500

Do you really believe that there are RFID tags in money because someone microwaved money and it burst into flames?

Isn't there a metallic strip right there on notes anyway?

bonkey

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If one wanted to prove its truth one would have to find out what frequency they are operating at and then purchase a scanner that would cover the range.

Or, alternately, one could test across a wide, wide range of frequencies. Its not like thats particularly difficult.

Alternately, one could use a microscope and look for the RFID tags, then analyse what they're made of.

I would presume the banks would be the first places to have such equipment and give it a matter of time scanners would appear on places like EBay.

I would presume that anyone with a decent understanding of the underlying science could build a multi-frequency scanner.

These would be so minute that they could be protected in behind the metal strip that would also double up as the antenna.

Excellent work, Watson. You're reducing the area we need to search to find the darned things. You're making it easier to find them, not explaining why its harder. Well done. Now all you need to do is...you guessed it...find them.

tony 2 tone

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

These would be so minute that they could be protected in behind the metal strip that would also double up as the antenna. This is another article on how successful the Hitachi Powder chip has been in up to 25 million admission tickets in Japan, they have since gone smaller again.

http://www.idtechex.com/printedelectronicsworld/articles/hitachi_powder_chip_japan_00000823.asp

Damn thats small. Don't know if those cards would be one use though, and the tickets would probably be thicker than euro notes.
Best way to find a chip in a note would be to soak the note in water/solvent and filter it, then look through the resulting mush for a chip.
Only noticed yesterday that some Dublin bus tickets have what looks like RFID chips in them:eek:

Run_to_da_hills

bonkey wrote: »

Excellent work, Watson. You're reducing the area we need to search to find the darned things. You're making it easier to find them, not explaining why its harder. Well done. Now all you need to do is...you guessed it...find them.

They could quite easily enforce a law making notes that have been interfered with non legal tender so if there is a little hole in it with scorch marks you know. These chips must have a few centimetres of antenna to work effectively.

toiletduck

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

RFID notes just like RFID chiped cigarette packs can be detected by scanner from up to several feet away no matter how well they are concealed.

Yeah but it's easy to block RFID. Ever hear of a Faraday cage?

A quick google came up with this, now you can be spared microwaving your cash....

Run_to_da_hills

toiletduck wrote: »

Yeah but it's easy to block RFID. Ever hear of a Faraday cage?

A quick google came up with this, now you can be spared microwaving your cash....

One would need quite a big one if you were trying to move an amount of cash :eek:

I have mentioned "farraday wallets" already in a number of posts, but get the usual "tin hat" response". Maybe these guys may pay attention to the idea of them after some guy from Lagos with a frequency scanner clones their identity from a smart card in their arse pocket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmajlKJlT3U

Mahatma coat

Just gavea selection of Australian money a run with the NLIS scanner, nuffink, anyone know how to alter the frequencies on these yokes


it connects via USB to the laptop

Run_to_da_hills

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Just gavea selection of Australian money a run with the NLIS scanner, nuffink, anyone know how to alter the frequencies on these yokes


it connects via USB to the laptop

Although the powder chips used by Hitachi are 2.45 GHz it may not be able to detect bank notes according to the following mandate which comes from the horses mouth.

There is an understandable fear of pick pockets and scammers being able to detect large quantities on notes in handbags and pockets of potential victims. Only certain law enforcement agencies and financial institutions would be able to access the codes to enable access to read the codes but ofcourse this can work both ways.


http://www.win.tue.nl/~aserebre/2IF03/presentations/Ari2.ppt

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:w_Jm6vCxmI0J:www.win.tue.nl/~aserebre/2IF03/presentations/Ari2.ppt+bank+note+reader+rfid&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=ie

Ciaran500

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

One would need quite a big one if you were trying to move an amount of cash :eek:

Why is that a bad thing?

Besides any bag/vehicle/case could be very easily fitted with a faraday cage hidden in the liner.

Run_to_da_hills

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Why is that a bad thing?

Besides any bag/vehicle/case could be very easily fitted with a faraday cage hidden in the liner.

Depends on what the material is made of and whether it could be detected i.e. metallic, would the extra weight of a hold all arise suspicion? the most effective faraday cage would probably be lead. :eek:

toiletduck

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

the most effective faraday cage would probably be lead. :eek:

The most effective? Maybe, but certainly you go a lot lighter. On a project I was working with RFID a few years ago for a company, was really interesting stuff actually, but when we needed to shield the RFID chips and stuff (for testing purposes) we had what looked like a tin-foil bag tbh! Was light as a plastic bag and did the job just fine. It would be a simple matter to line a suitcase with them. Of course first it may help if someone actually showed that money have chips in them.

Run_to_da_hills

toiletduck wrote: »

The most effective? Maybe, but certainly you go a lot lighter. On a project I was working with RFID a few years ago for a company, was really interesting stuff actually, but when we needed to shield the RFID chips and stuff (for testing purposes) we had what looked like a tin-foil bag tbh! Was light as a plastic bag and did the job just fine. It would be a simple matter to line a suitcase with them. Of course first it may help if someone actually showed that money have chips in them.

Tinfoil would drive metal detectors crazy :eek:

Ciaran500

Why would you be passing through a metal detector with large amounts of undeclared cash?

toiletduck

If they let the hat through...

Here's what I'm talking about.

Mahatma coat

wouldnt require that much lead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZSkM-QEeUg

Run_to_da_hills

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Why would you be passing through a metal detector with large amounts of undeclared cash?

Some guy wanting to travell across to Holyhead and purchase a Harley Davidson or a car. It is quite common for them to meet up at the port and make a cash exchange. The last thing wanted is to be messing around with banks when the guy could miss his return trip. Technically this guy could be trafficing an "illegal" amount of their own money if he was pulled over by the authorities.

Ciaran500

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Some guy wanting to travell across to Holyhead and purchase a Harley Davidson or a car. It is quite common for them to meet up at the port and make a cash exchange. The last thing wanted is to be messing around with banks when the guy could miss his return trip. Technically this guy could be trafficing an "illegal" amount of their own money if he was pulled over by the authorities.

You can still bring as much cash as you want, you just have to declare it. The same way it has always been.

bonkey

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They could quite easily enforce a law making notes that have been interfered with non legal tender so if there is a little hole in it with scorch marks you know.

Good point.

I'm sure no-one would be interested in using 5 or 10 Euro to prove such a wide-ranging conspiracy, in the feat that it might no longer be legal tender.

Its a good benchmark of just how much value you put on these conspiracy theories. Less than the smallest denomination of Euro notes.

In otherwords...you agree that they're worthless accusations

bonkey

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

the most effective faraday cage would probably be lead. :eek:

I have a suspicion that you don't understand the science behind a Farady cage.

Run_to_da_hills

bonkey wrote: »

I have a suspicion that you don't understand the science behind a Farady cage.

A container made of a conductor, such as wire mesh or metal plates, shielding what it encloses from external electric fields. Since the conductor is an equipotential, there are no potential differences inside the container. Faraday cages are named after physicist Michael Faraday, who built one in 1836.

Run_to_da_hills

bonkey wrote: »

Good point.

I'm sure no-one would be interested in using 5 or 10 Euro to prove such a wide-ranging conspiracy, in the feat that it might no longer be legal tender.

Its a good benchmark of just how much value you put on these conspiracy theories. Less than the smallest denomination of Euro notes.

In otherwords...you agree that they're worthless accusations

To summarise again, these chips are produced at less than 7c a pop, they have been used in millions of applications to date including important documents and once off admission tickets. I can see no reason why they are not used in bank notes.

You obviously haven't bothered to read the following directive from the ECU. http://www.win.tue.nl/~aserebre/2IF03/presentations/Ari2.ppt

oscarBravo

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

A container made of a conductor, such as wire mesh or metal plates, shielding what it encloses from external electric fields. Since the conductor is an equipotential, there are no potential differences inside the container. Faraday cages are named after physicist Michael Faraday, who built one in 1836.

So, why would lead make a particularly good one?

Ciaran500

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You obviously haven't bothered to read the following directive from the ECU. http://www.win.tue.nl/~aserebre/2IF03/presentations/Ari2.ppt

Do you have a link that isn't a power point presentation from a university student? There's nothing about an EU directive in there.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

A container made of a conductor, such as wire mesh or metal plates, shielding what it encloses from external electric fields. Since the conductor is an equipotential, there are no potential differences inside the container. Faraday cages are named after physicist Michael Faraday, who built one in 1836.

Congratulations, you can copy and paste.
http://books.google.ie/books?id=yKUagx8PB_EC&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=A+container+made+of+a+conductor,+such+as+wire+mesh+or+metal+plates,+shielding+what+it+encloses+from+external+electric+fields.&source=web&ots=KZjlQ6xNQ2&sig=NcXObFM-EMSJyOoTLh9OZS9Hs8Q&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

Run_to_da_hills

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Do you have a link that isn't a power point presentation from a university student? There's nothing about an EU directive in there.

Did you bother to read any of the reference links in that article?

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Congratulations, you can copy and paste.
http://books.google.ie/books?id=yKUagx8PB_EC&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=A+container+made+of+a+conductor,+such+as+wire+mesh+or+metal+plates,+shielding+what+it+encloses+from+external+electric+fields.&source=web&ots=KZjlQ6xNQ2&sig=NcXObFM-EMSJyOoTLh9OZS9Hs8Q&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

TBH I couldn't care less if the Euro bank note was chipped or not, but I can say for certain that any follow up to this currency be the card will have its mark.

Ciaran500

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Did you bother to read any of the reference links in that article?

The one that links to a 7 year old article (before the euro was introduced) about the ECB working on RFID embeded money. Thats not a "directive from the ECU" and its not proof that there is RFID money in circulation.

Run_to_da_hills

Ciaran500 wrote: »

The one that links to a 7 year old article (before the euro was introduced) about the ECB working on RFID embeded money. Thats not a "directive from the ECU" and its not proof that there is RFID money in circulation.

7 Years ago they did not have the technology to embed notes :rolleyes:

Ciaran500

Ok...

What point are you making?

Run_to_da_hills

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Ok...

What point are you making?

I would suppose the only way to settle this arguments is for someone to get the real thing and find out.

Gordon

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I would suppose the only way to settle this arguments is for someone to get the real thing and find out.

Bags it's you.

bonkey

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

A container made of a conductor, such as wire mesh or metal plates, shielding what it encloses from external electric fields. Since the conductor is an equipotential, there are no potential differences inside the container. Faraday cages are named after physicist Michael Faraday, who built one in 1836.

I didn't say that I suspected you couldn't offer a definition of what one is (which you've apparently copy-and-pasted).

It is your assertion that lead would be "the most effective" that led to my comment. If you understood the science behind Faraday cages, you'd understand why that claim is less then credible (putting it charitably).

To summarise again, these chips are produced at less than 7c a pop, they have been used in millions of applications to date including important documents and once off admission tickets. I can see no reason why they are not used in bank notes.

The cost of such chips is irrelevant. The known uses of such chips are irrelevant. If someone wants to alledge that such chips are being used in money, then in order to take such claims seriously would expect two simple things...details of the test(s) performed to obtain evidence, and a summary of what evidence one would find, were one to perform the same test oneself.

No-one who has ever suspected that they are being used has ever offered physical proof and details on how they carried out their tests, despite the fact that were RFID chips being used in money such proof would be relatively simple and relatively cheap to come by.

bonkey

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Tinfoil would drive metal detectors crazy :eek:

So would lead. It is, after all, a metal.

TBH I couldn't care less if the Euro bank note was chipped or not,

This is, of course, why you started a thread to ask if it was true or not, and then started getting defensive when you were told its a load of cobblers.

Run_to_da_hills

bonkey wrote: »

This is, of course, why you started a thread to ask if it was true or not, and then started getting defensive when you were told its a load of cobblers.

May be a load of cobblers but the technology is here to make it happen that was unavailible three years ago.

When I think of it why should the ECB bother to go to such an extent of e_tagging paper when people are being encouraged even more so than ever to switch over to the EFT which is in itsellf the ultimate form of tracking people and money.