Ireland Team v Canada

[Jackass]

Given the amount of talent coming through the Irish ranks at the moment and the need to blood new players, the game against Canda this November seems like an ideal time to blood in new players in and give valuable international experience, as well as let the young players who already getting a look in at international level to build on their experience, and also take a look at some "possibles" who may be established club players, but not have been given much oppertunity at international level already.

So what would your "Development" 15 be? Bearing in mind we need to win the game also. (Players in brackets to come on as subs)

Mine:

1. Healy
2. Jackman
3. Buckley
4. Cullen (Toner)
5. Casey (Caldwell)
6. Jennings (Ryan)
7. O'Brien (Ronan)
8. Heaslip

9. O'Leary (O'Donohoe)
10. Sexton (O'Connor)
11. Dowling
12. Fitzgerald (interchange both players at 12 & 13 looking for best combo)
13. Earls
14. Hurley
15. Kearney

FRONT ROW:
Jackman is in as I feel he has been given very little game time for Ireland, and with the recent form of Irish hookers, at club level, he has probably been the most consistent (imo!!) although he didn't match the level of expectation when he did get a run in the team and I think he's worth giving another shot based on his club form last season and early this season.

I think Healy and Buckley are the 1 & 3 of the future and should get game time together.

SECOND ROW:
Cullen & Casey are probably two of the most under capped / used players available to Ireland, in no small part to the great duo we have there already over the years. But these guys would probably be the 3 and 4 backup in the second row along with O'Driscoll and warrent an oppertunity based on club form. Toner & Caldwell get about 10 or 15 minutes to build confidence and may be a players of the future, so it's no harm giving them a taste of the action in a low presure enviornment.

BACK ROW:
I know one or two of the players in the squad like O'Donohoe & O'Brien are still very much yet to establish themselves at club level, but I think the promise already shown by O'Brien to me warrants him as a massive player of the future and a start here would do his confidence the world of good and give him massive game experience. I would have him to start, with Ronan & Ryan, both exciting talents, given game time at some point to showpiece themselves.

Jennings is in, again, probably due to lack of oppertunities at this level and on club form warrents an oppertunity.

Heaslip is more or less established in the 22 at very least, but this is more valuable game time for him as he is still very young.

HALF BACK:
Stringer, Reddan & Boss have provided ample cover in this position over the last few years, but O'Leary is a very different type of player, and warrents an oppertunity on club form to try and adapt his game at this level and see what this option brings to the party. O'Donohoe to get 5 or 10 minutes for confidence and a potential star of the future, to introduce him to the set-up.

Sexton is in as we are desperalty seeking back-up and eventual sucsessor to O'Gara and these young players need game time. The EOS era really limited the squad as so few players were used, an this is an oppertunity to also give Ulster out-half O'Connor a run, who has also looked very promising.

CENTRE:
There's no prizes for guessing who the next D'Arcy / O'Driscoll duo are going to be. Merely a case of blooding these guys in and giving them game time together. Also a chance for both to audition for the prefered 13 jersey playing one half each at 13.

BACK THREE:
Again, you can put your house on that 15 jersey belonging to Kearney for years to come, and this merely giving him game time and experience.

Dowling and Hurley are in as reward for club form and also to give this untapped resource a chance to show what they can do. It's an area where we've been spoilt for choice over the years and these guys deserve an oppertunity to add to the pool.

Crash

Only difference I'd have in there is putting O'Driscoll into inside centre for the first period of the match, with one of the others outside him. Purely as an opportunity to settle, then subbing him off for earls at a later stage. Think Cullen in the locks is a good choice, as once again, if we field a development side for this we need a few key players to tie the team in together, such as Cullen, BOD, maybe shaggy or paulie coming on later in the game, purely as an older head to keep the young lads going and the confidence up. Good choice other wise jackass, IMO

To be honest, the only player I see on that as limited is still O'Leary - he really needs to expand his game at international level to make himself worthy.

Edit: actually, on a re-read, i'd have issues on both dowling and hurley getting wing positions at the same time. Dowling is a real workhouse wing, but on flair and speed he often doesn't compare. Prefer having bowe maybe on one wing for a period, once again as a settler, and a backup incase things go awfully wrong, but still see hurley and dowling as a tad too similar. Hurley hasnt shown himself to handle pressure all that well either, to be honest, so i'd be cautious about throwing the pair in together.

CatFromHue

Hi everyone

this is my first post in the rugby forum

Im not knocking your team or idea Jackass but im not sure what can be learned from such a development team.

I was thinking for the Canada game start maybe 3/4 younger/coming through players/or guys that'll if injuries happen in the 6 nations they could be starting and have them play with the established current players. My thinking is that they'll learn alot more about international rugby by playing with the established guys than with fellas that arn't going to play for ireland for another few years.

I was thinking along the lines of Buckley, Mick O driscoll, Luke Fitzgerald.

I could also see the benefit of giving some game time to Johnny sexton. Possibly also giving some time to Paddy Wallace at inside center again.

I wouldnt include Earls with the international team yet, while he looks very good he's still only had two competitive games for munster (i think anyway)

Stev_o

[Jackass] wrote: »

Given the amount of talent coming through the Irish ranks at the moment and the need to blood new players, the game against Canda this November seems like an ideal time to blood in new players in and give valuable international experience, as well as let the young players who already getting a look in at international level to build on their experience, and also take a look at some "possibles" who may be established club players, but not have been given much oppertunity at international level already.

So what would your "Development" 15 be? Bearing in mind we need to win the game also. (Players in brackets to come on as subs)

Mine:

1. Healy
2. Jackman
3. Buckley
4. Cullen (Toner)
5. Casey (Caldwell)
6. Jennings (Ryan)
7. O'Brien (Ronan)
8. Heaslip

9. O'Leary (O'Donohoe)
10. Sexton (O'Connor)
11. Dowling
12. Fitzgerald (interchange both players at 12 & 13 looking for best combo)
13. Earls
14. Hurley
15. Kearney
.

Back 3 is way to slow, Back row wont be seen and will be totally played off the park, Toner as a 2nd row sub?? Come on man the guys only starting for Leinster now and he's nowhere near the proper 2nd row standard.

Centre's worry me though, i cant remember the last time iv seen two OC play in the midfield and i dont think it would work. You either have a big strong player at 12 who sets up the platform or you have a play maker there.

Id perfer

11.Dowling
12.P Wallace
13.Earls/Fitz
14.Fitz/Earls
15.Kearney

Teg Veece

If the Canada game was considered in isolation, then I largely agree with the teams mentioned here. But considering the importance of these Autumn tests in terms of our world cup rankings, I'm not sure is Kidney will be so eager to have his first XV going into a tough match against the All Blacks without playing a match together since the summer.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot more of the experienced players featuring in the Canada match.

anonymous_joe

I don't know if Dowling or Hurley would be good enough on the wings... Ireland doesn't really produce many fast wingers, and they don't really seem to fall into that category either.

bamboozle

I reckon in the squad for this season we’ll see Kearney, Fitzgerald & Buckley cement their places,
We’ll also see more of Healy
Its really time for Ferris to hopefully stay injury free and push his case
Cullen & Casey to fight it out as back-up second Row
Earls & Dowling to oust Horgan and Dempsey in the squad (and I’m a Leinster man) But the biggest questions for debate would be back up at 9&10
Reddan & ROG are assured of their places but then the likes of Boss, O’Leary, Murphy, O’Donoghue at 9 and Sexton, O’Connor & Keatley at 10 can all push for contention if they perform at provincial level.
Unfortunately it looks like whittaker at leinster is holding back the development/exposure of Keane and O’Donoghue and it seems from Leinster A’s that Keogh is being played at 9 ahead of O’Donoghue which is a shame cause he’s going to be a big player in the future

bleg

wouldn't play jackman or sexton.

need an out half that kicks penalties regularly.

JWAD

1. Healy - If he doesnt edge Horan out this season, he will next year.
2. R.Best (c) - My front runner for captaincy of national team and no.2 shirt.
3. Buckley - Needs to prove he can play 80 in an intl fixture if required to.
4. O'Callaghan
5. O'Kelly - Has more rugby in him for sure and is playing well so far.
6. Quinlan - Needs gametime. If injured I'd pick Neil Best as defensive flanker
7. Ferris - Needs gametime
8. Heaslip

9. Stringer
10. Wallace - Sexton and especially O'Connor not ready for intl stage
11. Fitzgerald - Need a flyer on the wing
12. O'Driscoll - If rumours are true, BOD is going to be second five.
13. Earls - Form speaks for itself and his defensive game has improved
14. Bowe or S.Horgan
15. Kearney - 1st choice no matter the game.

Subs: Flannery, Hayes, O'Connell, Ferris, Wallace, Reddan, O'Gara

I wouldn't have three sub backs for the Canada game as Wallace will in picture regardless so backline can move around. I wouldn't throw a load of rookies onto the field en-bloc either.

The team has to get off to a flyer whilst still breaking in the squad as a unit.
Dont be surprised if the team that starts is the first choice selection for other three tests. Results dont only matter but the manner and margin of the wins.

theKramer

JWAD wrote: »

1. Healy - If he doesnt edge Horan out this season, he will next year.
2. R.Best (c) - My front runner for captaincy of national team and no.2 shirt.
3. Buckley - Needs to prove he can play 80 in an intl fixture if required to.
4. O'Callaghan
5. O'Kelly - Has more rugby in him for sure and is playing well so far.
6. Quinlan - Needs gametime. If injured I'd pick Neil Best as defensive flanker
7. Ferris - Needs gametime
8. Heaslip

9. Reddan
10. Wallace - Sexton and especially O'Connor not ready for intl stage
11. Fitzgerald - Need a flyer on the wing
12. O'Driscoll - If rumours are true, BOD is going to be second five.
13. Earls - Form speaks for itself and his defensive game has improved
14. Bowe or S.Horgan
15. Kearney - 1st choice no matter the game.

Subs: Flannery, Hayes, O'Connell, Ferris, Wallace, Stringer/O'Leary, O'Gara

I would go for the following, I'm being realistic and not going for what will probably the future team in a few years.

1. Horan
2. R.Best
3. Hayes
4. O'Callaghan
5. O'Kelly
6. Quinlan
7. Jennings
8. Heaslip

9. Stringer
10. O'Gara
11. Fitzgerald
12. O'Driscoll
13. Earls
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

Subs: Flannery, Buckley, O'Connell, Ferris, D. Wallace, Reddan, P. Wallace

Healy doesnt have a hope of making the starting 22 as he hasnt even been starting for Leinster. Only starting players for their provinces should have a chance of at least making the international 22.

JWAD

theKramer wrote: »

Only starting players for their provinces should have a chance of at least making the international 22.

I know what you mean but that would only leave us with two starting props.

zAbbo

theKramer wrote: »

Only starting players for their provinces should have a chance of at least making the international 22.

What about players starting in different positions?

Many people have Fitz/Earls in the centre, but they've not played there this season, also Kearney can't even get gametime at FB for Leinster, and it looks like Necewa and even Dempsey are ahead of him.

JWAD

I also forgot about Geordan Murphy. He's in flying form and should not be discounted from the pool of possibles.

ScrubsfanChris

These friendly's are our last chance to climb the world rankings that will count for the next world cup, so I doubt we will see a very young team in every position, with a guaranteed win a must this is no throw away friendly that counts for nothing.

[Jackass]

Stev_o wrote: »

Back row wont be seen and will be totally played off

Ah I don't know about that, it's 2 thirds of the Leinster back row that won the magners laeague last year and beat the likes of Tolouse and Leicester. I think they'd be more than a match for Canada. Interestingly enough, O'Brien gets the nod ahead of Jennings for the game tomorrow, so he really is considered a front line player. I'm just surpries they didn't put Jennings at 6 instead of Jowwitt.

I agree the back 3 are probably too slow.

It may be a case of putting Fitzgerald back there and dropping Hurley to the bench with BOD and Earls in centre for first half and then move Ealrs out wide and BOD and Fitzgerald in centre in the second half.

Fair comment abour Toner.

In general though, I do think we need to start experimenting and giving the unknown players / inexperienced players game time. All the other home nations have done it...Cipriani made his debut against Ireland in a six nations match at 20 (iirc) in his first starting season. He wasn't half the player then that he became over the next couple of years getting into the England team.

I know someone said about the rankings, but you've got to look at development too. This is the lowest standard international we'll play all season, if we don't give a few of the young guys a shot, then our options are a lot more limited come the big days when we're looking for squad depth.

Case in point, the world cup. Once the first 15 weren't operating and EOS saw nothing new in his options from the rest of the squad only inferior players who have been around for years but don't bring anything new. I bet his final thoughts leaving that world cup were "why didn't I expand the squad".

Stev_o

[Jackass] wrote: »

In general though, I do think we need to start experimenting and giving the unknown players / inexperienced players game time. All the other home nations have done it...Cipriani made his debut against Ireland in a six nations match at 20 (iirc) in his first starting season.

Difference though is that he had featured for Wasps heavily in the GP and HC and then the English Saxons thats alot of game time where as a player such as O'Brien talented he may be doenst have that much experience at all.

Podge_irl

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

These friendly's are our last chance to climb the world rankings that will count for the next world cup, so I doubt we will see a very young team in every position, with a guaranteed win a must this is no throw away friendly that counts for nothing.

They're bloody test matches, not friendlies. Why in the name of god have so many people started referring to them as such?

In general though, I do think we need to start experimenting and giving the unknown players / inexperienced players game time

I don't think throwing in close to 15 new caps does anything for development of the players involved. You only learn something about players when they are in an environment to show what they can do with experienced heads around them. EOS was too conservative, but neither would I go the route suggested by some here if it were up to me.

Playing Dowling would be pointless, he's never going to be international standard. Likewise playing O'Brien or Toner at this stage is not going to help anyone. Those who have earned their shot deserve to make it in a team actually capable of playing some rugby and not a patched together squad of newbies.

Amazotheamazing

People need to start worrying about Jennings imo, he was kept out of 7 last year by Gleeson (who was well past his best and about to retire) and this year Gaffney has said he's more or less under threat by O'Brien. What happened the Jennings who was tearing up the GP for Leicester? I hope he rediscovers the form he showed, but it's a long way off now.

theKramer

People I would like to see getting a decent run are:
Earls & Fitz in the centre
Buckley and Healy in the front row (Although neither are first choice yet provincial players yet)
Maybe Jackman, but not so pushed as we already have decent options
Cullen in the 22, instead of O'Kelly

Trojan

theKramer wrote: »

Cullen in the 22, instead of O'Kelly

With MOK's form in the last 2 games there's no way he can be left out. Likewise, if Leo gets match fit to start and shows the same form as last year then I'd be looking at the two of them starting 2nd row with DOC to come in later in the game.

Stev_o

Trojan wrote: »

With MOK's form in the last 2 games there's no way he can be left out. Likewise, if Leo gets match fit to start and shows the same form as last year then I'd be looking at the two of them starting 2nd row with DOC to come in later in the game.

Hold the boat there this is deja vu all over again we said the exact same thing last year just before the 6N he got selected and was absent for the entire time added nothing to the team we arent going to get anything from him at this stage of his career he's given us his best id rather not see him be made a farce like last year again.

Trojan

Stev_o wrote: »

we arent going to get anything from him at this stage of his career he's given us his best

We disagree 100% on that.

Stev_o

Trojan wrote: »

We disagree 100% on that.

We being? Seriously man the guy is 34 what benefit will the Ireland get out of him? This is exactly what happened last year the MOK brigade said he was like a 20 year old and when push came to shove he played like a OAP, he should not turn out be our Fabien Polous his golden days are OVER lets move on and use younger players.

[Jackass]

I actually agree with both of you. I think that Mal is still playing great rugby and would be a good addition to the squad, however I also agree that there is enough there already that we should look past him now and concentrate on younger talent. Giving Cullen or Casey game time would make a lot more sense than giving it to Mal as they will be around for a few years yet.

Also, I think the reason Mal played before was that the usual 2 reliables POC & DOC had been missing in lots and lots of games prior to that and weren't functioning in any facet of the game and to some extent still aren't, in green anyway (POC was particularly poor in the tour down under and would be second choice atm for me).

That is why I think it's good to have viable options like Casey and Cullen ready to step in, and at least one under study, possibly Caldwell. If DOC or POC thought there was a realistic chance of them being dropped for a big game then they may pull their socks up, but truth be told, they've been given a gravy train ride for quite some time.

When on form they are one of the most devistating second row partnership out there, but they need to be put under pressure to stay on top of their game imo.

Podge_irl

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

People need to start worrying about Jennings imo, he was kept out of 7 last year by Gleeson (who was well past his best and about to retire)

Gleeson may well have been about to retire but he still played fantastically well last season. Jennings form is a worry, but you're exaggerating the problem somewhat.

Amazotheamazing

Podge_irl wrote: »

Gleeson may well have been about to retire but he still played fantastically well last season. Jennings form is a worry, but you're exaggerating the problem somewhat.

Not really, I expected he'd take over from Wallace last year for Ireland, instead he couldn't hold down a starting spot at 7 for his province, hardly encouraging from an Irish point of view.

bamboozle

Regarding O’Kelly, he’s in his mid-30’s we’re trying to develop a squad for the next world cup, great servant but having him in the squad would only hold back other younger players from getting the experience, especially given the quality coming through, Donncadh Ryan & Ryan Caldwell are both ready to step up, even Tonar is beginning to show potential, and apart from then the likes of Cullen, Casey and O’Driscoll will be around for the next world cup
If you cast your minds back to the farce of a tour to japan, where the likes of Reggie Corrigan and Tony Foley went over and started games when younger players should have got the nod and an effort be made to expose younger players

As for Jennings, he had last season to settle back in, he was playing both 6 & 7, hopefully this season he’ll get to focus on 7 rather than juggling the 2 positions. He should thrive in a back row with Rocky & Heaslip and also will O’Brien hot on his heels
I think it was Liam Toland in one of his columns last year said in national team selection where 2 players are pretty equal you should always go for the younger player

JWAD

To all these 'Development' protagonists posting on the subject:
RWC seeding is up this december. Ranks depend on not only results but how a team wins. "Development" for 2011 can wait another three months.
Right now results matter and the best way to get the best results is put out the BEST team.