Galway Karate

seligd

Hi all, I am new to this forum so this is my first post.

I am looking for opions on what has happed to Karate in Galway over the last 10 years ?
I am a 3rd dan instructor in shotokan karate and over the last 10 years I have seen a big decline in Adults training now days it seems that its only Juniors who seem to have an interest (or are made go by their parents).
We have changed or teaching techniques and brought them right upto date to compete with the likes of kick boxing and mma (I am not say we train as hard as those guys but we do train hard)as we felt that the old ways of up and down the floor punching and kicking thin air were not enought for our students now days we spend alot of time on focus pads kick sheilds and as my co instructor is a former all Ireland Judo champion as well as a 4th dan in shotokan we do quite a bit of ground work on the mats, but this still does not draw in the adults , Is it that there is no people out there that want to train any more or do people not have the time ?? all opions welcome

mark.leonard

seligd wrote: »

Hi all, I am new to this forum so this is my first post.

I am looking for opions on what has happed to Karate in Galway over the last 10 years ?
I am a 3rd dan instructor in shotokan karate and over the last 10 years I have seen a big decline in Adults training now days it seems that its only Juniors who seem to have an interest (or are made go by their parents).
We have changed or teaching techniques and brought them right upto date to compete with the likes of kick boxing and mma (I am not say we train as hard as those guys but we do train hard)as we felt that the old ways of up and down the floor punching and kicking thin air were not enought for our students now days we spend alot of time on focus pads kick sheilds and as my co instructor is a former all Ireland Judo champion as well as a 4th dan in shotokan we do quite a bit of ground work on the mats, but this still does not draw in the adults , Is it that there is no people out there that want to train any more or do people not have the time ?? all opions welcome

Can is now open the worms are everywhere.

I am going to presume that this is not a trolling attempt i.e. coming on to an MMA biased forum and going on about traditional training methods.

I wrote in the Irish Fighter some time ago about my thoughts on this titled "Is the traditional grading system broken?" I basically said that modern day Trad arts (Karate, Taekwondo etc) are being mis-labeled as something that they are not. That is exactly what adding in pad work and ground work is tantamount to, whether you do the occasional drill here and there that is in common with functional arts such as boxing or MMA, this does not a functional art make. But to answer your question about the general decline -
10-20 years ago the Karate Kid was the ultimate martial arts film and helped to fuel a zeitgeist where everyone wanted to learn these techniques that "no can defend". Also flares were in back then.
Now flares are not as cool and neither is learning techniques from an old Asian instructor. Things come and go and at the moment Traditional arts are on a down swing. Things that propelled this change include the UFC capturing the modern imagination but there are others. Its important to remember that nothing lasts forever (credit crunch anyone?) and like all things this too shall pass. Karate and Taekwondo had their peak, but the thing about peaks is that all other times are below them. Someday MMA will wane and something else will take its place, maybe it will be Karate making a comeback but more likely it will be something else.

seligd

Hi Mark thanks for your reply, apoligy if I posted in the wrong forum and by no means is this a trolling attempt.
You have an interesting point on Trad arts compared with functional arts like boxing ect.. I would take both karate and TKD as functional arts but with a traditional theme (Grading basics ect) to say they are not practical is wrong the person must be able to step away from the basics and bring it to a real life situation we all know that 90% of what is learned in Karate and TKD is useless on the street and was proven when UFC started back in 1991 but It also depends on the instructor who is teaching as alot of instructors now days are afraid to let there students fight in the off chance they will put in a claim on the club insurance but that is not the way we teach. Teaching traditional karate for me has long since died away and if we didnt move with the times we would not be here today.
ike I said in my orginal post why are there not more adults training now days ? as for the kids they love our way of training thats why we still have a healthy juniors club.

mark.leonard

seligd wrote: »

You have an interesting point on Trad arts compared with functional arts like boxing ect.. I would take both karate and TKD as functional arts but with a traditional theme

You could, but you would be wrong. Do you still learn patterns and try to "apply" these basics in the real world?

We have gone down through these arguments a number of times on this board so I'll try and abbreviate as best I can.

Learning Kata doesn't help with anything other than doing Kata
There is nothing wrong with learning Kata for their own sake it is a good form of exercise and an enjoyable one to boot. There becomes a problem when you start saying things like

to say they are not practical is wrong the person must be able to step away from the basics and bring it to a real life situation

If this was the case then why do

we all know that 90% of what is learned in Karate and TKD is useless on the street and was proven when UFC started back in 1991

You say it depends on the instructor, but it really is the training methods that count, it took me plenty of time to figure this out; I trained in Taekwond for 10 years before I finally shed myself completely of my former mentality.

Teaching traditional karate for me has long since died away and if we didnt move with the times we would not be here today.

Karate + functional training methods = Full Contact Kickboxing or Thai Boxing at a stretch. There are better people to teach you that than Karate instructors.

I did the same with TKD myself, tried to make it functional until I finally realised that TKD and its ilk are what they are, and to change them makes them something else, so why not move and do the something else instead and save yourself the heartache of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole?

like I said in my orginal post why are there not more adults training now days ?

I attempted to answer that in my first post above.

seligd

Point taken Mark but i still think there is room out there for Instructors like me who mix up the training to keep it fresh.

mark.leonard

There is to be sure. I wasn't trying to bash you for doing so and I hope it didn't come across that way. I think being able to add a couple of things not kata/competiton oriented in the classes is cool, gives the students a mental break from the usual run.

I would be wary of selling something for other than what it is though, it does nobody any good in the long run.

If you are interested, you are always welcome at Point Blank if you want to get a change of pace for yourself.

Tim_Murphy

seligd wrote: »

Point taken Mark but i still think there is room out there for Instructors like me who mix up the training to keep it fresh.

There is indeed. However one of the most common problems with people trying to make their traditional art functional it that they can end up with the worst of both worlds. Their trad stuff and semi contact sparring suffers and they don't really have enough time to get as good at the functional stuff as they might do. That is not necessarily a reason not to try to 'mix it up' as you say, but it is worth thinking about.

cowzerp

Selgid, mark makes good points, i would reccomend you try his class out to see martial arts from a different viewpoint, i also train mma and some of my students came from trad arts, almost all of them have moved over fully, the other thing you'll find is how easy going most mma club members are due to egos been left at the door..

buck65

Interesting discussion. I agree with you Mark on some points. I do agree that the credit crunch has impacted on MA. I see it in my (TKD) school. When I started in beginners 3 years ago we had 12-15 each night in a beginners class . We then proceeded (after green tag/6 months) to intermediate level where there were 15 at least more so class size was aprox 25 each night.
Over the past 2 years I now see maybe 2 or 3 beginners every 6 months and they join our reduced class (beginners class is gone) size aprox 14 - 16 now in total. This is a massive decrease.
However the junior part of the school still seems to be thriving!

Also apart from 1 or 2 others I am the only remaining member from the original class. Some found the training too hard , some hated patterns and gradings and some prefer to get drunk on their Friday nights.

I have dabbled in BJJ and loved it but just cant get to Limerick for classes on Mondays so I accept I have a very limited experience here, but even while training in BJJ I felt that TKD helped massively in conditioning and fitness. Also having sparred alot I felt comfortable getting down and dirty in BJJ.

We train hard in my TKD class and incorporate alot of boxing techniques that seem to me borrowed from boxing more than trad MA, most nights we spar a round or 2 hands only. And work on the heavy bags on techniques so I feel Mark that maybe TKD is more functional than you say? Especially as you rightly seem to rate boxing so highly.

I understand some of the flashy kicks inherent in TKD are useless on the street. And alot of our self defence techniques are rubbish, (however our instructoer seems to be willing to look outside tradition and even had John Kavanagh down a few years back for a seminar)But can be entertaining to try in class as is boardbreaking. Stuart Anslow in the UK seems to be revolusionising TKD there by incorporating some takedowns/throws etc. that he feels are inherent in the katas which IMO were borrowed from Karate anyway. I know every MMAer here will be rolling their eyes here but I feel that the OP has a good point and that traditional disciplines that adapt to ground, RBSD, throws will actually be all the stronger for it. Personally I would love a go at your type of Karate.

mark.leonard

buck65 wrote: »

Interesting discussion. I agree with you Mark on some points. I do agree that the credit crunch has impacted on MA. I see it in my (TKD) school.

You missed my point somewhat - the credit crunch is a result of people thinking the boom would go on forever, they shouldn't have. Similarly we shouldn't expect that what is the flavor of the month now will always be. I was postulating that TKD used to be the next big thing, now its not anymore.

However the junior part of the school still seems to be thriving!

Kids do seem to go where they are sent alright
I would expect that to shift as well, nothing lasts forever remember.

I have dabbled in BJJ and loved it but just cant get to Limerick for classes on Mondays so I accept I have a very limited experience here, but even while training in BJJ I felt that TKD helped massively in conditioning and fitness. Also having sparred alot I felt comfortable getting down and dirty in BJJ.

Agreed, I am firm believer that if I had never done Taekwondo I would never have done Kickboxing, Boxing, Jiu Jitsu and MMA. Trad arts are great for giving people who would never see themselves being able to survive in a functional art the confidence to give it a go.

We train hard in my TKD class and incorporate alot of boxing techniques that seem to me borrowed from boxing more than trad MA, most nights we spar a round or 2 hands only. And work on the heavy bags on techniques so I feel Mark that maybe TKD is more functional than you say? Especially as you rightly seem to rate boxing so highly.

You probably know already, but I am third Dan in Taekwondo and I trained in it seriously for 10 years, and I was handy enough. We also worked heavy bags and sparred hands only.

We were TKD folks not kicking, not boxers. It took me a long time to realise this, I made mention to this above. If you were using proper functional training methods and using hands only you would be doing Boxing, probably quite poorly though, given as you have no boxers to teach you the little refinements they have earned with generations of training that way.

Wouldn't it be easier to just go to a boxing gym and learn from people who know how to do it already, besides re-inventing the wheel inside the dojang and pretending you are still doing Taekwondo? By leaving and doing it in a boxing gym you also allow people who want to learn Taekwondo to do so without someone trying to turn it into something it is not by borrowing from functional arts so that they can cry "Look, we are functional!"

Hopefully that clarifies what I am trying to say a bit better.

mark.leonard

I understand some of the flashy kicks inherent in TKD are useless on the street. And alot of our self defence techniques are rubbish, (however our instructoer seems to be willing to look outside tradition and even had John Kavanagh down a few years back for a seminar)But can be entertaining to try in class as is boardbreaking. Stuart Anslow in the UK seems to be revolusionising TKD there by incorporating some takedowns/throws etc. that he feels are inherent in the katas which IMO were borrowed from Karate anyway. I know every MMAer here will be rolling their eyes here but I feel that the OP has a good point and that traditional disciplines that adapt to ground, RBSD, throws will actually be all the stronger for it. Personally I would love a go at your type of Karate.

you stuck this in while I was writing my reply, I think that reply hits most of what you have here but to re-iterate

Taekwondo is what it is. Trying to make it like something else, if you do it correctly makes it something else. So do you want to do Taekwondo, or something else?
Why don't you save yourself the effort, decide the answer now and then do what it is that you want to do and don't apologise for it?

buck65

I am surprised though Mark as a MMAer that you don't understand my point, why should a martial art stand still and stick to a guideline that really is probably an interpretation in the first place.
Why if A TKD instructor wants to incorporate more boxing or sweeps/ throws into his class should this not still be TKD , why do you feel that Karate should be left alone as it is?
Surely these arts have evolved over time from something quite different anyway.
Of course I respect your TKD 3rd dan and your experience but out of interest did you not feel that you could take care of yourself on the street if need be after 10 yrs of TKD?

mark.leonard

Ahhhhhhhhh don't bring up the self defence question or I will never leave the office!
I will rpely again tomorrow when I am being paid to

cowzerp

i know some martial arts lads that can look aft themselves! most are just tough lads that where tough despite the martial arts training and when the **** hits the fan just fight like novice boxers, windmilling like mad till there foe drops!!!

i also know martial artists that would openly tell me that they would be lost in a real fight, street, mma, boxing match whatever.

if someone trains boxing, muay thai, or mma for 1 year i would expect them to be very capable on the street unless there natural wusses as some people just are!

i've sparred a world champion karateka and whipped him all over the place even though i was just playing with him, 1 round i only boxed just to show him the difference, im not going to drop a name, trained in kenpo, wada ryu and goju ryu or something like that!, he was bigger and heavier too so thats no excuse, i,ve sparred average thai boxers and there a bit of work, kickboxers can be too, TKD that i,ve sparred where very easy, now i only sparred brown belts..

maybe i've just had weird experiences but this is how i see it.

buck65

im probably gonna get killed for this but TKD is kickboxing with the patterns thrown in, our school trains both seperately and sometimes we compete against each other and spar, very interchangeable. Of course our instructors are from a TKD backround so probably lean this way too when teaching kickboxing.
Saying that our head instructor has a shedload of kickboxing trophies from around the world!?
Oh I dunno
ps cowzerp you still owe me a boxing lesson

note to mark
I am delighted that TKD is no longer flavour of the month, tbh I was getting sick of all these kids beating me up!!
seriously though I do wonder where the next popular MA will come from or are all the kids going to go away and play Rugby now.
MMA does really have seemed to capture the imagination in adults but I feel that parents probably look at it as being a bit rough for their kids.
I walked out of training with a big blood stain (any hard shot causes my nose to bleed) on my dobok sleeve last week and there were parents enrolling their kids and I know they thought twice about it then.
However I myself am going to take a look at other schools next year, my subscription rates have almost doubled in 3 years to well over what a local gym membership is now. ( I always thought this was agood barometer) Unfortunately in my area/county there are about 5 TKD schools and no judo, bjj, mma, muay thai, 1 karate school so in fairness there is little choice.
Oh the credit crunch.

cowzerp

buck65 wrote: »

ps cowzerp you still owe me a boxing lesson

Tell me when you want 1 and if im around we're on...:)

seligd

Boy did I open a can of worms, Mark I dont think you were bashing me for doing whatI do I am fully respect peoples opion and I willing to listen & learn from anyone thats just the way I am in fact i tell anyone (adult) who is serious about training to go and try MMA as if I had 15 years back I would probably be there myself. I have trained in most MAs including boxing and putting them all together to form a fully rounded fighter is the best form of MA so I do agree with you but I am a Karate head at the end of the day like you said I as one of the that generation that seen the karate kid and I was hooked crane kick and all that so I still would like to see people other than kids start training even if they use it as a steping stone to move to MMA.
I like to sign off with a quote I tell my students about the grading systems "A belt is good for holding up your pants it does not make you a good fighter nor will it save your life"

Tim_Murphy

im probably gonna get killed for this but TKD is kickboxing with the patterns thrown in, our school trains both seperately and sometimes we compete against each other and spar, very interchangeable. Of course our instructors are from a TKD backround so probably lean this way too when teaching kickboxing.
Saying that our head instructor has a shedload of kickboxing trophies from around the world!?

Hi,
Just out of interest, is that Light Contact Kickboxing of Full Contact? When I did TKD we made the switch to competing in Light Contact easily enough and a lot of us did quite well at it, but if we'd gone into Full Contact it would in all likelihood have been quite a different story.
But I'd agree with you, TKD can be pretty interchangeable with Light Contact a lot of the time. Provided you're not one of those TKDist who can't handle getting punched in the face that is! Some clubs/groups tend to struggle in kickboxing comps.

buck65

Tim ,
I do mean light contact (ie with pads on), I know full contact is a different story. I have no problem with being punched in the face and do so myself;)

irishspark

seligd wrote: »

Hi all, I am new to this forum so this is my first post.

I am looking for opions on what has happed to Karate in Galway over the last 10 years ?
I am a 3rd dan instructor in shotokan karate and over the last 10 years I have seen a big decline in Adults training now days it seems that its only Juniors who seem to have an interest (or are made go by their parents).
We have changed or teaching techniques and brought them right upto date to compete with the likes of kick boxing and mma (I am not say we train as hard as those guys but we do train hard)as we felt that the old ways of up and down the floor punching and kicking thin air were not enought for our students now days we spend alot of time on focus pads kick sheilds and as my co instructor is a former all Ireland Judo champion as well as a 4th dan in shotokan we do quite a bit of ground work on the mats, but this still does not draw in the adults , Is it that there is no people out there that want to train any more or do people not have the time ?? all opions welcome

Karate has developed into a high competitive sport and is slowly rolling across ireland, although many instructors and 'martial arts practitioners' seem to feel that its not the right way forward, this only applies in Ireland, as throughout the world , the sport is becoming huge. click on the youtube link and you can see how karate has developed into a huge international sport and is now on the final selection for new sports to the olympic games.

Kata Competition - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7Io7U0CW5I

World Champ'ship Finals Team Kata - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM8ShgassPA&feature=related


Kumite Competition - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tjnLTEA7u8

if ya need any info on this for ireland just give me a shout.

mark.leonard

irishspark wrote: »

Karate has developed into a high competitive sport and is slowly rolling across ireland, although many instructors and 'martial arts practitioners' seem to feel that its not the right way forward, this only applies in Ireland, as throughout the world , the sport is becoming huge. click on the youtube link and you can see how karate has developed into a huge international sport and is now on the final selection for new sports to the olympic games.
if ya need any info on this for ireland just give me a shout.

This is an Irish Discussion board, so referencing Ireland is somewhat appropriate, don't you think?

I can't speak for clubs outside of Ireland, but I am pretty sure that MMA is growing in every country, so I find it intriguing that you say Karate is on the upswing.

I am not sure why you think that 'martial arts practitioners' have a problem with karate, or for that matter why you need to quote the expression, care to enlighten us?

seligd

Thanks for the info Irishspark, but we already are more of a "Sport Karate" club as 80% of what we teach is competition kumite as my co instructor (a former Irish kumite team member and ONKAI all Ireland champion )and I are we rounded in that department. I think my question has been answered but we will keep going the path we have choosen

irishspark

Mark, as I can only speak for Karate and what I have observed from travelling, training and competing with many of the NGBs world wide, Irish karate would not be developing at the same rate as that of our world counterparts. However this is not due to effort from many individuals, but due to political motiviation from certain areas and of the course the financial situations, which I am sure that you can easily understand from TKD, with the current structure of funding in irish sport.
Irish Karate has moved forward in an extremely positive light and the NGB has done great work with limited resources to developing young world class athletes

Dave,

Look forward to seeing you and your competitors at the AMA's so in the Arena in October.

Pride Fighter

What do the MMA people think about Machida and his Shotokan Karate based stand up?
I think that there is more to the traditional arts than meets the eye.

Nothingcompares

Well I follow the train of thought that a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. There are different types of punches and different types of kicks and you can say a particular style of fighting has different types of kicks. I'm sure a K1 expert distinguish the Thai boxing style, Kyukushin stlye and the more tradional styles of kicking.

It's a question of the functionality of the training and therefore the effectiveness of the technique in the ring. Thai boxing is seen as the most functional type of striking training for kicking and that's why the majority of kickboxers and MMA use this style. But Kyukushin has many practioneers successful at the highest level. And now with Machida we can see that unusual types of kicks, when trained in a functional and effective manner can be incorporated into the MMA game by a master.

Like if an aikido guy comes up to me and shows me a wrist lock I'm going to tap. If a aikido guy tries to wrist lock me and I'm allowed to fight back I'm going to throw him on his head and arm bar him. If I stand in front of a Karate guy and he kicks me in the balls with front kick it's going to hurt. If I'm allowed to move around and try and punch him its a lot less likely to happen.

In brief, techniques are great but are only valid or interesting if they work a decent % of the time in sparring conditions.

susiesusie

[quote

i've sparred a world champion karateka and whipped him all over the place even though i was just playing with him, 1 round i only boxed just to show him the difference, im not going to drop a name, trained in kenpo, wada ryu and goju ryu or something like that!, he was bigger and heavier too so thats no excuse, i,ve sparred average thai boxers and there a bit of work, kickboxers can be too, TKD that i,ve sparred where very easy, now i only sparred brown belts..

maybe i've just had weird experiences but this is how i see it.[/quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JM5OUmLJ6g


Was this guy who handed your ass to you a karateka, kenpo, wada ryu, goju ryu, kickboxer, TKD or an "average" thai boxer?

cowzerp

susiesusie wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JM5OUmLJ6g

Was this guy who handed your ass to you a karateka, kenpo, wada ryu, goju ryu, kickboxer, TKD or an "average" thai boxer?

No, he was actually a boxer turned MMA, and is 1 of the top mma fighters in ireland and the uk, so i dont see your point-:rolleyes:

mma as a sport can go this way, i've no problem losing and have comeback since, as seen as your hiding behind your name, i doubt you'd have the balls to step in to a ring or cage.

susiesusie

Sorry there but I have no balls to hide behind as I am a girl !!! Just saw the thread and thought this was of interest :P

cowzerp

susiesusie wrote: »

Sorry there but I have no balls to hide behind as I am a girl !!! Just saw the thread and thought this was of interest :P

I call BS, your new but still knew who i am even though my user name does not say my name! you know me and are just having a cheap shot, it did not work, i take pride in having the guts to get in the cage/ring with top class opponents win, lose or draw, you have knocked me and andy ryan on your 1st 2 posts and that shows what type of person you are, your probably 1 of them lads that pretend on to be a pro boxer even though you never boxed in your life.

Anyway, thanks for the laugh, im sure people wont knock me for losing a fight. if i was scared of losing i'd never get in the ring/cage.

My club motto is- Heroes and cowards feel the same fear, Heroes just react to it different, which are you?! DS!

Dragan

susiesusie wrote: »

Sorry there but I have no balls to hide behind as I am a girl !!! Just saw the thread and thought this was of interest :P

I'd wager your a jesse, not so sure about a girl.

User banned.

arybvtcw0eolkf

cowzerp wrote: »

My club motto is- Heroes and cowards feel the same fear, Heroes just react to it different, which are you?! DS!

I like Shakespeare's ''A coward dies a thousand deaths, a hero only one".

joepenguin

My mate said that on nationwide tommorrow they are doing a segment on karate. Its following some club in its prep for a comp coming up or something? Be interesting to see.

its on rte1 at 7 anyway

Pride Fighter

cowzerp wrote: »

I call BS, your new but still knew who i am even though my user name does not say my name! you know me and are just having a cheap shot, it did not work, i take pride in having the guts to get in the cage/ring with top class opponents win, lose or draw, you have knocked me and andy ryan on your 1st 2 posts and that shows what type of person you are, your probably 1 of them lads that pretend on to be a pro boxer even though you never boxed in your life.

Anyway, thanks for the laugh, im sure people wont knock me for losing a fight. if i was scared of losing i'd never get in the ring/cage.

My club motto is- Heroes and cowards feel the same fear, Heroes just react to it different, which are you?! DS!

I saw the fight the person put up. Although you lost fair play to you for getting in the ring. You tagged the guy with a nice one two and he did not like it. Maybe I'll fight someday, if I am ever living on the Northside maybe I'll look you up:). I am happy doing the Kenpo for the time being but I will seek a greater challenge as soon as I am out of College and earning the scratch to afford MMA/BJJ lessons.