Replying on first aid/Emergency services

HarryD

Recently in a central European train station I walked around a corner to find a man in is mid fifties lying on the ground motionless.
His eyes were open and not moving/blinking, and appeared not to be breathing.
Someone had put him in the recovery position, and a someone tested his pulse.
Another person tried to give him CPR, but a policeman tapped them and said the emergency services were on their way, so the person stopped.
About 15mins later the paramedics arrived, and ripped open his shirt, started CPR, chest electric shock's and draining fluid from his lungs.
15mins later they were still at it with no response from the guy.
I had to leave, but things looked bleak for him.

Afterwards I had to question the responses of myself/police/public.
First aid is the most important, as time elapse greatly reduces chances of survival.
The guy got none. If he had, perhaps he might have survived (assuming he died).
So were we all potentially partial to his death ?

It seems to me that everyone should be training in First Aid,
as many people will face a situation where it will be needed,
and if it saves some lives, which surely it will, then it's justified.
Should be it something we teach in schools ?


Similarly my father saw a car accident recently where a car flipped over and ended upsidedown in a ditch.
The 2 occupants were alive when he went to them.
Other people came to help and decided not to touch anything and wait for the emergency services instead.
They had a jeep/rope and could have flipped the car back over.
It took the emergency services 50 mins to come from the nearest town - 10 mins away,
by which stage the 2 guys were dead.
Surely something could have been done differently here.
Questions should be asked as to why it took so long for the emergency services to come out.
2 people are dead, is there anything we could learn.
At the inquest none of these concerns were brought up.

It seems to me if you're in trouble there's no point in relying on the emergency services.

Any thoughts ?

Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading

HD

MrPudding

My uncle, a teenager at the time, had an experience years ago where he was giving CPR to someone that had been pulled out of a river. He had been at it for 10 or 15 minutes and a policeman told him it was pointless and he should stop. He did and the man died. The ambulance arrived a short time later, but by that time there was nothing they could do. When he told his father about this he went mental. As far as he was concerned only someone who has greater medical knowledge should tell you to stop.

In your first example the situation is very similar to that which my uncle found himself in. Personally, if I find myself giving someone CRP I will not stop until a medic tells me to stop or I am simply too exhausted to continue.

I don’t know if it is realistic to teach everyone first aid, though teaching it at school would seem to be a very easy way to greatly increase the number of people that are capable. I think it is very important and will make sure that my children are able to administer first aid.

With respect to pulling the car out of the ditch, I am not so sure about that. That is potentially dangerous for the helpers and that is never good. Additionally I think there is a very real potential risk of doing more harm, but then, balanced with certain death it might be a worthwhile risk. Tough one. I know I would have trouble watching someone die when I thought there was something I could potentially do to save them.

MrP

seamus

HarryD wrote: »

They had a jeep/rope and could have flipped the car back over.

Calls like that are hard to make. You don't know if you're going to do more damage by trying to pull the vehicle. For example, one of the occupants may have been skewered by a large chunk of the vehicle which you can't see by looking into it. By attempting to flip it over, you could put stress on the body of the vehicle, which could cause much greater damage by moving the skewer around, whereas the occupant may have survived if you left it be till a fire crew arrived with a jaws of life or an angle grinder.

It took the emergency services 50 mins to come from the nearest town - 10 mins away,
by which stage the 2 guys were dead.
Surely something could have been done differently here.
Questions should be asked as to why it took so long for the emergency services to come out.

That really is the main issue in this particular case.

People will always be reluctant to tell anyone that they did anything wrong in an emergency situation, unless your job is dealing with emergency situations. Most people have no idea how they will react in such a situation, so it's difficult to say, "You should have done X", or, "You should have done Y".
For all intents and purposes it's like scolding a dog for not answering the phone - the person you're scolding has no idea what to do.

I'm not sure how much use first aid courses would be, particularly if taught in school. Few of us encounter situations where it would be required, if ever, so by the time someone needs to use it, they may have forgotten most of it and could stumble blindly into trying to administer first aid based on a foggy memory taught 20 years ago. Whereas if they had never learned it, they may have the sense to do nothing.

A small ongoing media campaign may be of some use though, with basic tips in common situations, such as attending to the quietest victim first (they're probably the most injured).

There's one very simple thing which was explained to me about emergency situations (including stuff such as fights or arguments), that the more people there are at the scene, the less chance there is that someone has intervened. Your natural instinct is to assume that with so many people around, someone else has it under control, but since everyone assumes this, the victim is less likely to actually get any help.

If the government sponsored ads with small little facts like that, instead of trying to give people a comprehensive knowledge of first aid, it could make all the difference in such situations.

MrPudding

seamus wrote: »

There's one very simple thing which was explained to me about emergency situations (including stuff such as fights or arguments), that the more people there are at the scene, the less chance there is that someone has intervened. Your natural instinct is to assume that with so many people around, someone else has it under control, but since everyone assumes this, the victim is less likely to actually get any help.

Good old Bystander Apathy. Interesting phenomena. I have heard of some pretty extreme case, to the point where not only did no one intervene physically, but no one even called the authorities.

MrP

F.A.

I don't know about the law here, but where I come from, you can be prosecuted for not helping at all. You are obliged to offer first aid or at least make sure help is coming. If you don't, you are guilty of what they call neglect of duty to provide assistance. I have never been a situation like this though, so I don't know how realistic it is to expect people to keep a cool head and help, though I guess making a phone call isn't too much to ask.

HarryD

Thanks for the replies guys.
Point taken on flipping the car back over - I think that was the logic at the time.
If the ambulance takes excessively long to arrive at a scene, surely they have to justify it.
I wouldn't be surprised if things like "I was in the middle of my tea" came out.

At another incident some years my father was flagged down while driving, but a young lad.
His friend had disappeared while swimming in the slaney.
My father went down and eventually recovered the guy from the under water.
He proceeded with CPR while the doctor was on his way.
When the doc arrived, he strolled around to the back of his car to retrieve his kit.
Then strolled over to the body to do his stuff, but pronounced him dead after a quick examination.
This attitude enrages me. If the kids parents had seen it they would probably have gone mad.
When it comes to saving someone from death, all the stops should be pulled out, but it seems they are not.
If it were a family member & we knew that paramedics were delayed coming to help for some petty reason we'd all be furious.

where I come from, you can be prosecuted for not helping at all.

proper order !

seamus

HarryD wrote: »

Point taken on flipping the car back over - I think that was the logic at the time.

Well as I said, it's a judgement call more than anything. If both of the guys were completely out and it was hard to tell if they were actually alive, then it makes more sense to get them out by whatever means necessary. If they were both responsive and seemed OK, then it would make sense that it can't hurt to leave them in the vehicle for another ten minutes.

I think there is also something of an issue with warnings that are given to people about attending scenes. For example, you're told not to move a motorcyclist as they may have broken or cracked their spine in the crash and you may paralyse them by moving them.

However, you're not told to weigh up all the variables. If the guy is splayed out on his stomach and not breathing, then leaving him where he is will do a lot more damage than potentially paralysing him. Likewise if he's lying on his back in the middle of the road at night, you'll be doing him (and everyone else involved in the rescue) a service by dragging him as close to the edge of the road as you can.

Dave!

There really is no excuse for not teaching basic first aid in school. 1 class (30 minutes), once a week, would be plenty. Cut out religion, or SPHE (no not CSPE), or some other bullsh*t class. Or maybe even *gasp* cut down the curriculum in a subject or 2, and take the time out of that.

There's no excuse, honestly.

F.A.

HarryD wrote: »

proper order !

No need for sarcasm. I think the idea to oblige citizens to help is interesting. I am not saying that I believe it to be the solution. In fact, I don't even think it's all that practicable! Like I said, you cannot realistically expect people in emergencies to really know what to do/when to do it/to do it at all since they may be in a state of shock. It's easy to have everyone take first aid classes (and I agree they should be introduced), but only in a real state of emergency will you know how or if you'll react. On the other hand, it may prevent this horrible scenario of dozens of people just standing around gawking.

HarryD

No need for sarcasm.

sarcasm ?

F.A.

It wasn't meant as such? Sorry if I took it up the wrong way!

HarryD

wasn't meant as such.
I think if someone stands idly by, and watches someone die without trying to help they should be punished if it's deemed that they could have possibly saved their life by calling emergency services and/or performing CPR.
They are possibly partial to a death.
Obvioulsy it would have to treated on a case by case basis, as not everyone can think straight in an emergency situation, but I think most people would at least dial 999.

F.A.

First of all, apologies again, HarryD. I agree with you. I would also like to point out that the law I mentioned is very complex, but essentially it also protects you against any claims as a result from your help, i.e., if the person you saved/helped stays paralysed because of that, you are not liable. This would apply in the scenario described by seamus:

If the guy is splayed out on his stomach and not breathing, then leaving him where he is will do a lot more damage than potentially paralysing him. Likewise if he's lying on his back in the middle of the road at night, you'll be doing him (and everyone else involved in the rescue) a service by dragging him as close to the edge of the road as you can.

I am still a bit split about it. What if you realise a person is not breathing anymore, but there is blood all over their face, do you give mouth-to-mouth in this day and age given the risks involved (HIV, Hepatitis etc.)? I know that the law says you cannot be expected to put your own life at risk to save another, but this seems a bit of a grey area.

Ah well. We can agree that a phone call is most certainly manageable. As is walking away once paramedics have arrive instead of nosely gawking...

HarryD

I agree.. I would be certainly reluctant go to mouth to mouth in that case..
I'm ashamed to admit it, but one of the factors for me not helping in the first case I mentioned above, was that the man involved was homeless, and filthy.
Another factor was been an alien in an former eastern block country - let someone else/qualified do it..
Terrible attitude, I know, I should have at least done chest compressions (apparently as effective in some cases).
I do think if it happened in my own country my response would have been different.

HD

tallaght01

I think everyone should learn first aid, but everyone doesn't need a first aid cert, if that makes sense.

Basically, people need to know a little about airway management, such as recovery positions and how to hold someone's airway open if they're immobilised and unconscious.

Than they need to knwo the basics of CPR (ie give some breaths and some compressions in some kind of rhythm

Then they need to know about how to stop bleeding. Maybe throw some burns care in there too, and away u go.

Tango Alpha 51

HarryD wrote: »

Thanks for the replies guys.
Point taken on flipping the car back over - I think that was the logic at the time.
If the ambulance takes excessively long to arrive at a scene, surely they have to justify it.
I wouldn't be surprised if things like "I was in the middle of my tea" came out.


What a stupid comment to make. Do you actually know how many ambulances are on duty in the area at any one time. Do you know how many calls they do. You can't just expect to dial 999 & when you finish the call, the ambulance magically appears out of nowhere!!!!!!. Trust me we get there as quick as we can but bear in mind that there is only approx 180 ambulances in the whole HSE/DFB fleet nationally & between the two we cover nearly 600,000 (999 calls) a yr. This figure does not include Dr's calls or clinic calls taking elderly/immobile pt's to OPD clinics.

Ye did the right thing by not trying to right the van as you could easily do more damage than good. I commend anyone who wishes to help out at the scene of an accident etc but we as in the road crews don't have to justify anything to bystanders. I requarly have days where I start work at 8am & don't get a "lunch break" until late in the evening. We're rushed off our feet like our colleagues in the Gardai & Fire & Rescue & no 999 call was ever delayed because the crew were having their tea ( i think it's a flippant remark & certainly not deserved by any member of the ES)

smelltheglove

I havent read every post here but a few so I'm sorry if I'm repeating something. It is very hard tor ead these posts and not want to say something straight away. I could not stand and wait for someone just because a Gard told me help was on the way - sure why isnt he gonna give CPR, isn't he trained???

I was cabin crew and I was trained, I was trained in fire fighting and first aid. There is no way I could stand by knowing I could help. There are some guidelines though as said before re the botorcyclist. If there is any chance or neck or back injury they should be left in that position until paramedics arrive but made as comfortable as possible while waiting.

It is so sad to hear all the stories. My dad witnessed someone jump into the liffey, he saw them whilst turning onto the quays and jumped out of the van, a taxi driver also noticed and both of them ran to the person calling them trying to stop him, but he jumped. Dad said as soon as he hit the water he was begging for help, screaming, they ran for the ring but he was already under. Dad didnt jump in, his brother in law died after jumping in years before and like this case called for help. The man who tried to save him did the best he could but was hospitalised and water conditions were better than they were that night. I think in that circumstance he made the right choice, he knew he could not survive it even being a great swimmer and he did his best to stop the man that died. It's just a call you have to make and in a moment like that we never know how we will behave.

Virgil°

smelltheglove wrote: »

Dad didnt jump in, his brother in law died after jumping in years before and like this case called for help.

Your Dad was entirely correct not to jump in. The first rule to be learned in water safety is, when rescuing someone drowning, going in yourself is a LAST RESORT. More often than not saving someone who is drowning means trying to swim for two when the other person is panicked and desperate.It can and does lead to the death of two instead of one in a lot of cases.