Copyright Question!

punkyfish

We previously had a drummer whose girlfriend took all photo's and created logo's etc for the band. Since her boyfriend left the band she has been continually harassing the band to remover her photo's. We have removed anything with her, her friends and the logo's she has created on them, as we have no intention of using designs she has created. So essentially we have photo's of the band without logo's. She took on the role of monopolising the photography and no one argued as we felt this would not be an issue. But obviously now it is. I am aware of her rights of copyright, but as a band who gave her permission to take the photo's and the fact that at the time she gave us permission to use these photo's, what rights do we now have? We gave her full control of the photographic side of things, and as such no other member or friends took photo's as not to interfere. So as such we have lost many pictures of many gigs. I am aware that copyright is copyright. But holding a band to ransom like this is a little over the top. If someone took a photo of you, and you agreed only they could take the photo, and at the time they gave you permission to use it, and then through bitterness tried to remove that permission, leaving you without any photo's, what would you do?

We are not trying to benefit in any financial way from her work, but we feel she is undermining the history of the band, and reacting negatively through her million emails.

Also worth pointing out that at the time she was also the one to upload the photo's onto the website.

Just looking for some people opinions on the issue.

Thanks:eek:

Fajitas!

Do you have anything in writing saying she allowed you to use the photos?

Even as simple as an email, message on Myspace, etc?

City-Exile

She owns the images, despite the fact that you feature in them.
As Fajitas says, you would need some sort of communication to show that she gave you
use of the images.

Plenty good photographers on here who do gig work.
Start a fresh & get them to create a new set of images for you.

punkyfish

Well we don't have anything in writing, but the fact that she uploaded them herself onto the myspace shows that she gave us permission, although I see your point that there is no actual evidence to prove this. I agree entirely about starting afresh, im just a bit annoyed that someone may be allowed to go on like this. I was just looking to see if were the first people to be shafted like this. As I say we have taken down all the photo's, as im fed up of the harassment. But surely all this is wrong? Has anyone else had a similar fate. I agree that an artists art belongs to them, as a musician this is foremost in my mind, however the giving and taking of permission when an artist feels like it is a little bit unfair? Am I right?

punkyfish

and more to the point is this not a terrible representation of what art is all about? Why is it all about gain and greed? I write music because I enjoy it and want other people to enjoy it. Surely most of you guys feel the same about your art?

Fajitas!

Unfortunately, her uploading them won't prove anything towards what usage she's given you with the images.

I'd be understandable annoyed about the situation, you've basically lost records of plenty of gigs and good times. You're not the first person to end up in a situation like this, and certainally won't be the last either

In future though, make sure you sort out beforehand how the photos work. It can be difficult in situations like you were in though. The only real way of going about it is being brutally honest about what you want!

Yes, art can be about sharing and all, but people will also try to use it like they have above, and make money from it. It's a service as much as an artform. As much as I'd love to be in a situation where I didn't charge for my services, it's not practical - I need to pay plenty of bills, beers, and whatnot too...

I think as City Exile said, start again, and this time, go for photographers that you want aswell - See what different styles are out there - You'd never know, you could find yourself in a place you'd never have ended up in if you didn't lose the other wan

AnCatDubh

I think at a human level, everyone will find sympathy for you and your fellow band members. Like many things in life, they will sail along fine until a bump is hit and then you may wish that you had all bases previously covered.

Yes it seems harsh from the bands perspective and i've no idea why the photographer in question has taken the action - i can only assume an acrimonious split was had and this may be a form of revenge. As others have commented, the law will side with the person who sees through the view finder and presses the button, harsh and all that it may be at a deeply personal level. AFAIK the law has no ability to see grey, but black and white. They took it so they own it.

If you are looking to clutch at straws and have a row with someone then i'd ask did the photographer get in free to gigs / was this payment or recompense for the images being taken? Were they given pints on the nights in question by the band (or from the bands funds). This however may only prolong the agony without having anything in writing. You'd reallly want to be a stubborn individual to chase it on these grounds.

It sounds like you have a bunny boiler on your hands and what's worse they have the law on their side.

I hope starting afresh works for you - sorry for the memories.

City-Exile

I can see why you're frustrated, especially since the images are of no particular use to her. Like I say, scout around this forum & you'll see plenty gig photographers.
Sineadw is mad into arty stuff & the music scene!

CabanSail

It comes back to the Sam Goldwyn quote "A Verbal Agreement is not worth the paper it's written on"

She owns the copyright & that is the end of the story.

punkyfish

Thank Fajitas, I see what you mean alright!! Im sure I prob have an email sumwhere where she grants permission! Its people like herself that give others a bad name! I would gladly pay for the services of a professional in the future. Just goes to show, you think you know someone!

Thanks anyway peoples! Much obliged!

Fajitas!

If you find that email, it can quite possibly put you in a better position. But to avoid hassle and be 'better person' in this situation, because it's not purely a business one, I'd say remove all the photos - Hey - It's less promotion for her too at the end of the day

As AnCatDubh says, it may still prolong the agony of the situation.

punkyfish

JUst found an email saying

"Yeah definitely going to send them to you tonight. Have been mad busy all week. I loaded them up but they’re huge and not the best quality so I resized some of them and I’ll send them to you tonight. They’re on the home PC. I’ll send what I can tonight and put rest on a disk for ****. "

Im guessing this doesn't cover anything tho? although she does mention shes putting them on a disk for me!

Im not even looking to fight anymore, its a matter of principle in my head that im not being unreasonable by thinking this is out of line! I have no intention of taking it further. I just think its a sad reflection on the person in question.

And to answer above, yes she got in free to all gigs as she was the drummers girlfriend.

Thanks again guys!!

punkyfish

I agree entirely, we have removed the photo's. and in all respects the band have acted grown up and respectful the whole way through. Its petty to say the least.

slinkykitten

That photographer is not an official, professional photographer? What exactly are they achieving??????

aside from a rather sour reputation.....

Fajitas!

Just a sour reputation

The above email dosn't say much that could be used to keep the photos, just that she was showing them to you

punkyfish

ah well sure not to worry! its all stems from being petty, Im glad I got your opinions, very much appreciated. She isn't even a professional photograher, not that it matters, but her manner has been far from professional!

Thanks again guys! much appreciated!

Tactical

Just a thought further to the discussion and advice that has taken place on this topic.

I'm sorry to hear that such a bad experience has been had and I hope it doesn't sour the bands thoughts towards photographers for the future.

While the original photographer owns the copyright of the shots, did she get you ll to sign a release form?

Where I'm going with this is future use and publication of the photo's will in some way be goverened by a release form.

So she may keep them for personal use but without the release she can't benefit from them professionally.

punkyfish

No we have never seen a release form of any kind, so this means at no stage can she use the photo's of us without our knowledge? correct? or am I misreading what you said? She's not a professional photographer, but she does work for a design company and has resources available to her there. So she should be aware of this also right?

and thank you. I am not soured at all by using photographers in the future. everyone here has been more than helpful, and rest assured I will be back in contact for our next shoot!!

Fajitas!

No, it dosn't mean that she can't use your images, but it does mean she can't make profit from your images - Commercial usage, etc.

She can still exhibit, and use your photos in her portfolios, offline and on. I'd reckon if she's aware of copyright at all, she'll be aware of this! If she works in the graphic design industry, chances are she'll have knowledge of model releases!

sheesh

your obviously not going to court about this. you could claim that these were a gift from her to the band. At least you can keep the images she gave you on cd for the memories. You cannot use them for commercial gain but you have possession of them.
just block her emails

she sounds like a right cow

slinkykitten

Ive seen these lads play and they're unbelievable. Its a shame someone would ruin the fun over their own little problems.


Best of luck to you Punkyfish, Fraction Kids reign supreme!!!!!

(screw the haters)

Fajitas!

Actually, without naming names...

Her name didn't begin with L did it?

punkyfish

Hey Fajitas, it didnt no, but don't really want to name names, wouldn't go so low as herself. But ill keep an eye out for an L in future!! Cheers!!

Fajitas!

Heh, that's alright then!

I thought a penny had dropped for a second.

Back to the topic at hand... And no names

punkyfish

and sheesh, you are spot on with your last statement!

smelltheglove

Hey punky fish.No this is not a professional way to go about it. She gave you the shots and let you use them. However if she decides to make things awkward you're better off not using them. Especially if she is a bit loo loo iykwim at the end of the day you're not gonna preform well if she turns uo to a gig beforehand saying whats what over this. Next time you have contact with her you should explain you are no longer using any of her work but you will not allow her to use any images of yourself for profit or promotion as you never agreed to this in the first place. Put this in writing so if she does breach it she has nothing to fall back on.

I have taken shots of my husbands band and some of his friends bands also and would always hand over the shots to them. There are a lot of people into music photography and especially if you are in an energetic band. Maybe as Fajitas said to me before with regards to my hubbies gigs possibly list a couple of your gigs in the expeditions section and see if anyone would be interested in taking a few shots for you. I know if I was around I wouldnt mind.

And remember her behavious is only going to damage her credibility as a photographer and without that she is nothing. As a music wife though I can say all the little groupies have a thing for taking shots, thats how they become more than groupies, they take the shots of the egos and the egos pay them attention. But before you say pot kettle black I didnt start taking shots until years after I met hubbie,:D I could be sad and pathetic and say he is my inspiration but I won't, I just decided to take my camera along when he got with a really good band and snapped away from there.

punkyfish

Thank you for those kind words, you make some very good points! Needless to say we will definately get everyone including our mothers to sign contracts frm here on in! But seriously, its nice to know there are decent people out there who love art for art and thats it. I know its some of your professions and I think thats great! But for others to use it as a currency to hold up a band is just wrong! We all move on to bigger and better things!!

Many thanks again!

whyulittle

Did the drummer leave in bad circumstances? No chance of reasoning with her to allow you keep the photos?

CabanSail

Maybe send her an Invoice for the entry to the Gigs she got into free? As she has now declined the band the use of the images, she was not entitled to the free entry.

I know you have no chance of getting anything but it could be a bit of fun!

City-Exile

I presume she got free entry because she was courting one of the band members.
You could open up a real Pandora's Box, if you went down that route.
Best to cut her free & move on.

TelePaul

It could be worse...it could have been the lead guitarist that walked!

Bui

CabanSail wrote: »

Maybe send her an Invoice for the entry to the Gigs she got into free? As she has now declined the band the use of the images, she was not entitled to the free entry.

I know you have no chance of getting anything but it could be a bit of fun!

whyulittle wrote: »

Did the drummer leave in bad circumstances? No chance of reasoning with her to allow you keep the photos?

To be honest I think you're best off cutting your losses. It sounds to me like she's caught up in the politics of the situation, maybe or maybe not influenced by her relationship, and I wouldn't stoop down to her level, an eye for an eye etc it's just petty. Don't waste any more of your time on her or the images - as has been said before, there are plenty of really good photographers here that do some really good gig work, however good her shots were you'll get equally good, if not better, ones from anyone here.

It's a crappy and unfortunate situation that has developed, but it is as is stands and you've been advised well here regarding copyright, so best of forget about it, move on and get some better shots!

rahtkennades

City-Exile wrote: »

...she was courting one of the band members...

Courting! :pac: Jeez Peadar, come back from the 1800's!!:D

At OP, I can see your point, it's pretty bad form when you took all this on trust originally. I wonder, is there any of the pics you really want and might want to use for promo in the future? Would it be worth thinking of offering her a few quid to just give you licence to use the pics and go away?
Otherwise, I'd keep the CD as a keepsake and tell her to go away or you'll start shouting "Stalker!"

kdpis

Hi there,

My name is Conor and I am/was the drummer in Fraction Kids. Im not going to get into silly pettyness I would just merely like to set the record straight about Fraction Kids and tell the other "truthful" side of the story.

Basically leading up to the split certain problems completely outside of the band were starting to creep into the band and cause alot of tension within.

The band had a meeting regarding this and agreed to not let it affect the band and keep moving forward. Later that night I recieved some unwelcome messages regarding issues that were brought up in the meeting. I called the bass player and asked to meet and sort out the situation once and for all, he declined so I organised a meeting for the next evening.

Next evening arrived I recieved a message from the bassist stating he has left the band, which I accepted. I rang the guitarist and he decided to leave too which was all well and fine. 2 days later I tryed to log into the Fraction Kids myspace which I set up and ran to find the log in and password had been changed. Next I knew a blog appeared stating I had left the band and that Fraction Kids were looking for a new drummer.

I put 8 months of hard work and dedication starting Fraction Kids from scratch with the guitarist before finding the bassist. I put hours upon hours into managing the band doing pretty much all the organising. My girlfriend also put countless hours into designing artwork, logos, the backdrop, posters, leaflets and taking many photos completely free of charge.

So I dont think anyone could blame her for asking the lads to take down all of her work giving the situation.

I am sorry for the long rant but was sick of the blatant one sidedness of this post so hopefully this might make you think twice.

As one of the posts above said, "and you think you know someone" amen my friend amen!

Conor Kids

CabanSail

Now that you are here & things are being discussed in a rational way, why not sort it out in a mutually benefitial manner.

It is not disputed that your girlfriend owns the copyright to the images. Without signed releases they are of little use to her. Without her permission they are also of little use to the band. Both sides can play petty & then things stay the way they are. The other way would be to put the past behind & work out a solution.

Maybe a reasonable payment for the work that was done in exchange for rights to use the images?

smelltheglove

Amen to cabainsail with the above comment.

Not being bad here but this is a thread for comments on copyright of the images. The op did not release the information as to the band as he was looking for info on copyright alone. He did not name your girlfriend at all which to me says he was still holding a little bit of respect for her, all well and done if you feel hard done by, like cabainsail said go and sort it out together but seriously the photography forum is not the place to do it in.

TelePaul

kdpis wrote: »

Hi there,

My name is Conor and I am/was the drummer in Fraction Kids. Im not going to get into silly pettyness I would just merely like to set the record straight about Fraction Kids and tell the other "truthful" side of the story.

Basically leading up to the split certain problems completely outside of the band were starting to creep into the band and cause alot of tension within.

The band had a meeting regarding this and agreed to not let it affect the band and keep moving forward. Later that night I recieved some unwelcome messages regarding issues that were brought up in the meeting. I called the bass player and asked to meet and sort out the situation once and for all, he declined so I organised a meeting for the next evening.

Next evening arrived I recieved a message from the bassist stating he has left the band, which I accepted. I rang the guitarist and he decided to leave too which was all well and fine. 2 days later I tryed to log into the Fraction Kids myspace which I set up and ran to find the log in and password had been changed. Next I knew a blog appeared stating I had left the band and that Fraction Kids were looking for a new drummer.

I put 8 months of hard work and dedication starting Fraction Kids from scratch with the guitarist before finding the bassist. I put hours upon hours into managing the band doing pretty much all the organising. My girlfriend also put countless hours into designing artwork, logos, the backdrop, posters, leaflets and taking many photos completely free of charge.

So I dont think anyone could blame her for asking the lads to take down all of her work giving the situation.

I am sorry for the long rant but was sick of the blatant one sidedness of this post so hopefully this might make you think twice.

As one of the posts above said, "and you think you know someone" amen my friend amen!

Conor Kids

Uh look, sorry to state the obvious, but.....

1) Your girlfriend isn't getting back the countless hours she put in, no matter how many e-mails she sends asking for her pictures to be removed. It's a sunk cost.

2) This is the photography forum...I hope this isn't going to turn into some ****-slinging contest between you and the other chaps in the band

3) People grow apart. Tis the way of the world I'm afraid. And it sucks, I know, I miss loads of the people who aren't around any more, for one reason or another. You might be better off meeting the lads for a quiet drink and a chat - you were mates after all - and discussing this in person than furthering the tension online.

magicbastarder

smelltheglove wrote: »

like cabainsail said go and sort it out together but seriously the photography forum is not the place to do it in.

well, if what kdpis said is true, one would obviously expect him to feel entitled to set the record straight. giving out to him, and not the original poster, may be mistaken.

TelePaul

magicbastarder wrote: »

well, if what kdpis said is true, one would obviously expect him to feel entitled to set the record straight. giving out to him, and not the original poster, may be mistaken.

Wasn't the OP happy not to name names?

magicbastarder

if kdpis' story is true, i can see why.

Bui

I don't think this thread was aimed at proving a point or side taking, the OP was looking for information and advice regarding photography which he has been given. kdpis has now added his side to the story to straighten out any ill opinions that may or may not have been formed about an, up until now, anonymous party, so all done no?

TelePaul

magicbastarder wrote: »

if kdpis' story is true, i can see why.

I dunno man, bands break up. And theres always problems of this nature...Johnny wrote the songs, Mick bought the P.A....

smelltheglove

Look guys can I just say, being married to a singer in a band, from experience these guys are quite egotisitcal and get insulted about their work extremely easily. Some have friendships for years that break up by a simple 'you played brutal last night'.

This will probably go on for years and could possibly end up being one of those bands that change formation for every album, at the end of the day we're in photography, we didnt know who they were so we had no issue giving them advice now the second person has named names and gotten personal, leave them to it, all I'm saying is dont waste our time by doing it here.

Musicians = stubborn and egotistical, I'm married to a man with LSD, lead singers disease, worst of them all.:D

Calina

And with that I think this thread is dead.