ESB Smart Metering

AlanD

Some of you may have seen this: http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/greener-electricity-meters-to-cut-bills-by-8364500-1476148.html

ESB have announced smart metering. Anyone know how to get on the pilot scheme or have these 21,000 homes been picked already?

Heroditas

The homes are being picked at random. There were major discussions and meetings held to determine how they would be picked and as far as I am aware, they will try to limit the number of rented accomodation for the "customer behaviour" section of the trial because the results will be skewed if the occupants change.
ESB Networks are using 4 different types of meter. To be fair, for the vast majority of people who sign up, there will be no difference - those meters are simply being tested for reliability, communications and functionality.
The people in the customer behaviour trial will be issued most probably with "shadow tariffs" and will then be able to see how much it could cost them if they are on different rates and tariffs in the future etc.

Cabaal

about bloody time they're getting these,

oscarBravo

Any idea how they communicate upstream? Curious from a strictly technical perspective.

Cabaal

as far as I'm aware they have to drive within say 100-200metres of the unit and it'll pick up the info via wireless. this saves them gaining physical access to the smart meter and saves then manpower/time etc.

Heroditas

Cabaal wrote: »

as far as I'm aware they have to drive within say 100-200metres of the unit and it'll pick up the info via wireless. this saves them gaining physical access to the smart meter and saves then manpower/time etc.

They're trialling several different methods. The whole idea is that the data is gathered and also transmitted every 30 minutes so it's a "real live feed" of data outlining energy consumption. The whole idea is that there will be no need at all for people to go out to collect any data.

They're trialling GPRS, RF, PLC MV and LV with the various vendors' pieces of equipment.

Macha

Do you think they're going to do BERs on the chosen accommodation in order to determine necessary level of use of heating?

For example, a house with electric storage heating is going to use a lot more electricity than another type of house, or is it purely to see how it impacts on the householder's behaviour?

Heroditas

taconnol wrote: »

Do you think they're going to do BERs on the chosen accommodation in order to determine necessary level of use of heating?

For example, a house with electric storage heating is going to use a lot more electricity than another type of house, or is it purely to see how it impacts on the householder's behaviour?

Purely to see how it impacts on the householder's behaviour.

probe

The metering system could have the option of making use of the home's broadband connection. It would offer the cheapest communications cost for the metering company (ie zero at the consumer end). All it would require is an RJ45 socket on the meter to connect to a router.

The other side of smart metering is internet based - ie each consumer has a secure website login, where they can monitor their usage hour by hour and see their bills.

It is logical to put both ends on the same internet connection where possible to minimise on cost.

Assuming the metering system will be open to controlling appliances use of power - eg one is away for a week, and before returning home one might want to charge the electric car, switch on the heating etc, an option to do this could be added to the web interface, allowing home appliances to be controlled over the internet from anywhere in the world.

.probe

Heroditas

probe wrote: »

The metering system could have the option of making use of the home's broadband connection. It would offer the cheapest communications cost for the metering company (ie zero at the consumer end). All it would require is an RJ45 socket on the meter to connect to a router.

The other side of smart metering is internet based - ie each consumer has a secure website login, where they can monitor their usage hour by hour and see their bills.

It is logical to put both ends on the same internet connection where possible to minimise on cost.

Assuming the metering system will be open to controlling appliances use of power - eg one is away for a week, and before returning home one might want to charge the electric car, switch on the heating etc, an option to do this could be added to the web interface, allowing home appliances to be controlled over the internet from anywhere in the world.

.probe

There is a MASSIVE cost involved in having them linked into a broadband network. It is not currently feasible, prticularly when one considers broadband penetration in this country. Also there is a concern over security.
Utilizing point-to-point GPRS is currently the cheapest method.

One also is assuming consumers have PCs at home or at work and can log on to analyze their consumption. This is another massive assumption and the % is quite low. ESB networks will be providing IHDs (in home displays) so people can monitor their usage that way.

Currently metering systems are not configurable so that the owner can turn on their power remotely but the provision is there for the utility company to cut you off remotely instead of sending out somebody to do it on site.

This pilot is going to cost a very large sum of money and the possible eventual rollout of smart meters nationwide currently stands at €1bn. Will it reduce consumption? That's what the pilot will hopefully tell us.

MCMLXXXIII

My parents' house in Canada has Smart Meter.
The same company that distributes electricity also is a fibre-optic telecom company, so they use those lines and read the meters every hour. You can log on to their website and check the previous day's usage.
The project is expected to be complete in Canada in 2010, and they will have different rates for different times of the day, so you can try and curtail your spending through using major appliances at different times of the day (like drying your clothes). The system is extremely similar to how my water in billed in the US.
Also, you may log on to their website and turn on/off large appliances such as central air con and other things that use a whole circuit to themselves. However, if there is an electricity shortage, the company reserves the right to turn it off without your permission during peak times.
After the meter is installed, there are no more estimated bills either - all of them reflect actual usage every time.

The house has geothermal heating/cooling, so the bill is never really terrible, but with that we can also remotely turn the system to heat or cool - all in the same system in the house so it makes it easier.

Heroditas

Ontario? I've read a load of positive things so far about the implementation over there.

andrewlownie101

Here we go again, ANOTHER CON.

Hard working people fleeced even more than normal when they get home from work and want to cook dinner and put on a load of washing, because it is PEAK time.

SCAM.

The most shocking thing is that someone mentioned these lot can turn off your appliances if they are using too much electric. So getting fleeced for a service is not enough, we have to count ourselves LUCKY to have the opportunity to be fleeced.

BHAAA, BHAAA, I hear you all say, this will say me e500, I saw it in the independant. :rolleyes:


God help the poor people living in these cardboard apartments, the spinning of washing machines as 5am will cause some havoc, infact it will probably be the straw that breaks the camels back in terms of wrecking the cheap foundations of those toy houses.

Im going off grid, good riddance to ESB, EIRCOM and the rest of these tyrants.

Heroditas

That's quite a rant. How do you know they will be charging people more for using electricity at peak time?

andrewlownie101

Heroditas wrote: »

That's quite a rant. How do you know they will be charging people more for using electricity at peak time?

Read paragraph 2 and 5 of that link in post 1.

"Using power during busy times, in particular the 5pm-7pm peak, will incur a higher charge. At off-peak times, the tariff will be cheaper."


So the man or woman who can hardly keep a household together at present with all the crazy charges and taxes, has to now wait till 8pm for their dinner.

SCAM.

This is just getting us ready for 'brown outs', when electricity will not be available for long periods during the day.

And here we have the greenies all for it, you don't know what your asking for.

Oh, just one more thing. Im sure it wont take them long to increase the peak time from 4pm until 9pm, because after the first month they know dam well most people will be turning that oven on at 7.01pm, dramatically causing a SURGE on the grid.

So here we have the energy suppliers creating a problem and then selling us the solution. An age old trick.

probe

Heroditas wrote: »

There is a MASSIVE cost involved in having them linked into a broadband network. It is not currently feasible, prticularly when one considers broadband penetration in this country. Also there is a concern over security.
Utilizing point-to-point GPRS is currently the cheapest method.

One also is assuming consumers have PCs at home or at work and can log on to analyze their consumption. This is another massive assumption and the % is quite low. ESB networks will be providing IHDs (in home displays) so people can monitor their usage that way.

Currently metering systems are not configurable so that the owner can turn on their power remotely but the provision is there for the utility company to cut you off remotely instead of sending out somebody to do it on site.

This pilot is going to cost a very large sum of money and the possible eventual rollout of smart meters nationwide currently stands at €1bn. Will it reduce consumption? That's what the pilot will hopefully tell us.

1) I didn't suggest that all smart meters be linked to the customers' broadband connection - just for the option to be available.

2) What cost is there to use an existing broadband connection aside from the cable between the meter and the broadband router or other connection point? Around a million households have broadband (and therefore at least one PC).

3) GPRS isn't cost free. But no doubt you have a deal done with a GPRS provider, who will be making big money out of it. Which the consumer will end up paying for.

4) Nobody is suggesting that the customer *has to* use a PC to look at their consumption. It is however the only practical way to monitor usage, short of running to the meter every hour or two. Which one can do now with a conventional meter anyway. These IHDs will have a cost. Why should someone with a PC have to pay for this cost?

5) Of course you are building in a facility "turn off power remotely" - so you can disconnect the consumer without getting access to their premises! But you are missing the point that smart metering is about empowering the customer to consume electricity in an intelligent manner. But of course you ESB monopolists couldn't care less about that. The more power the customer wastes and consumes the better for your bottom line and fat pensions!

6) Enel in Italy (a country 12 times the size of IRL) installed smart meters for just €2.1 billion, and is achieving cost savings of about €500 million per annum. So why should it cost the ESB with under 2 million consumers €1 billion to install smart meters that cost about €100 each - give or take a few hundred million for infrastructure and messing about and the fact that it is pig inefficient rip off Ireland?

The ESB is doing everything in its power to stop green energy initiatives or make them as non-viable as possible. Ireland has some of the most expensive electricity as a result. And is a huge carbon emitter per capita as a result.

This smart metering trial should be stopped - it is simply an attempt by ESB and their "regulator" to greenwash the filthy, inefficient, and outmoded business they operate.

.probe

andrewlownie101

Is it possible to opt out if the 'SMART METERING'?

pauln

Wow, so much mis-information, where do I start?

probe wrote: »

1) I didn't suggest that all smart meters be linked to the customers' broadband connection - just for the option to be available.

What benefit would this have? The data will already have been uploaded to the web and accessible using a web browser on any computer, anywhere in the world. Having a local connection to this is of no real benefit and would run into the problem of people being put at risk of electrocution by having a network cable run into the meter cabinet to the meter.

probe wrote: »

2) What cost is there to use an existing broadband connection aside from the cable between the meter and the broadband router or other connection point? Around a million households have broadband (and therefore at least one PC).

Simple really, the ESB need a reliable, independent communications system to use for billing and data collection. You can't use the customers own broadband for this as 1. they may not even have broadband, 2. The customer could then turn their broadband off/on whenever they wanted which would disrupt the billing and data collection.

probe wrote: »

3) GPRS isn't cost free. But no doubt you have a deal done with a GPRS provider, who will be making big money out of it. Which the consumer will end up paying for.

Customers already pay to have meter readers drive around manually reading meters as it is. Which do you think would costs more, having a human driving around reading a few hundred meters a day or automatically collecting all the data over GPRS?

probe wrote: »

4) Nobody is suggesting that the customer *has to* use a PC to look at their consumption. It is however the only practical way to monitor usage, short of running to the meter every hour or two. Which one can do now with a conventional meter anyway. These IHDs will have a cost. Why should someone with a PC have to pay for this cost?

For a start your not going to want to switch on the PC every time you simply want to get an idea of your usage or read the current total for a particular time period. Yes there will be a added cost associated with the display units but at the volume ESB are looking at it will be small and for people without a PC a very valuable source of information.

probe wrote: »

5) Of course you are building in a facility "turn off power remotely" - so you can disconnect the consumer without getting access to their premises! But you are missing the point that smart metering is about empowering the customer to consume electricity in an intelligent manner. But of course you ESB monopolists couldn't care less about that. The more power the customer wastes and consumes the better for your bottom line and fat pensions!

The ESB already have the right in law to access any premises to disconnect your electricity supply whenever they have too, there is nothing sinister in their adding an ability to remotely disconnect a supply it just makes sense to have this option included.
The ESB is trying to smooth out the load profile of national consumption so that the entire electricity grid can run more efficiently by encouraging people to think about doing high electricity demand things (such as water heating, clothes washing etc) at times when the grid is not under as much load. The added bonus to the customer is that they can also reduce their overall electricity usage by better seeing where their money is going and making adjustments accordingly. It's a win win situation.
The ESB no longer has a monopoly on electricity generation, with the recent sale of power plants they are reducing their stake to 40% of the market.

probe wrote: »

6) Enel in Italy (a country 12 times the size of IRL) installed smart meters for just €2.1 billion, and is achieving cost savings of about €500 million per annum. So why should it cost the ESB with under 2 million consumers €1 billion to install smart meters that cost about €100 each - give or take a few hundred million for infrastructure and messing about and the fact that it is pig inefficient rip off Ireland?

The Italian meters are older technology and do not have the same capabilities as the proposed Irish system.

probe wrote: »

The ESB is doing everything in its power to stop green energy initiatives or make them as non-viable as possible. Ireland has some of the most expensive electricity as a result. And is a huge carbon emitter per capita as a result.

Why do you say this? There are technical issues with increasing the amount of renewable energy sources on a small island grid like Ireland that will first have to be thought out and overcome. Such things as the new inter-connector to Wales will help but you still can't just run the country on 100% renewable's, the wind doesn't always blow and can't be forecast beyond a few days, the sun in Ireland isn't sufficient for large scale PV generation, we don't have sufficient biomass stocks, wind/tidal technology is developing but not ready for the main stream yet, we have maxed out our hydro generation capacity and nobody dare speak of nuclear even if would run into some of the same problems given that even a small plant would be too large for our needs.
Our electricity is expensive (and also high CO2) because for the most part it is generated using hydrocarbon fuels such as coal, oil and gas and the associated price fluctuations that go with them. If you want cheap, clean efficient electricity then we could follow France's example and go almost completely nuclear.

probe wrote: »

This smart metering trial should be stopped - it is simply an attempt by ESB and their "regulator" to greenwash the filthy, inefficient, and outmoded business they operate.

You want more renewable's but want them to stop implementing the meters that are needed to allow people to sell their electricity back to the grid?
As for the filthy and inefficient comment. At the time each of the power plants were built they were among the best in the world for what they were. Technology moves on but at a cost of €800m to build new plants if the ESB were to simply replace all the old ones then you would be complaining about the increased cost of your electricity for building these. New plants being built at the minute are the latest CCGT technology running at 50-60% efficiency, up form the 30-40% of coal and oil. Power plants don't come any better then this given the currently proven technology.

Heroditas

Why do you think I work for the ESB Probe?
You're starting to rant about something you are not privvy to. How long do you think the planning for this has gone on for? Do you think this was done on a whim and also to copperfasten ESB's "stranglehold" on the market?
Do you really think the ESB want people to simply waste electricity? That's ridiculous. The ESB have been extremely concerned about energy conservation and awareness for an awfully long time. It's not the monolithic institution - certainly the power gen and networks sections aren't.
ESB Customer Supply are a different kettle of fish but this smart meter plan is led by Networks.
The statement about electricity costing more at peak times for consumers is a fallacy - that is a FACT. Nothing is in stone at all.
It does however cost an awful lot more to generate at peak time because all the inefficient power stations must be cranked into action. A full understanding of the supply pool is needed to understand how the energy market here now works.

MCMLXXXIII

Heroditas wrote: »

There is a MASSIVE cost involved in having them linked into a broadband network. It is not currently feasible, prticularly when one considers broadband penetration in this country. Also there is a concern over security.

pauln wrote: »

Simple really, the ESB need a reliable, independent communications system to use for billing and data collection. You can't use the customers own broadband for this as 1. they may not even have broadband, 2. The customer could then turn their broadband off/on whenever they wanted which would disrupt the billing and data collection.

As I said in my earlier post, in Ontario the same company owns the power distribution as well as the fibre-optic broadband network...so it all works out.

I have been out of the country for a long time, but doesn't ESB own a large telecom infrastructure?
Even if it doesn't...I'm sure they can easily strike a deal with Ericom (or whomever) and give them discounted electricity if they allow for their use of a broadband line...even if it's once per day during off-peak hours.

Why the pessimism?
...it seems like you guys are making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

Heroditas

MCMLXXXIII wrote: »

I have been out of the country for a long time, but doesn't ESB own a large telecom infrastructure?
Even if it doesn't...I'm sure they can easily strike a deal with Ericom (or whomever) and give them discounted electricity if they allow for their use of a broadband line...even if it's once per day during off-peak hours.

Why the pessimism?
...it seems like you guys are making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

To strike a deal like that and give discounted electricity would be deemed anti-competition. They're giving a service to another company at a heavily discounted price and denying other utility companies from matching that offer.
Having access to the broadband line for once a day would defeat the purpose of the meters as one of their purposes is to gauge constant consumption and try and get real-time feedback. However I do see where you're coming from and it's not a bad idea ... unfortunately it's unworkable in a market such as this one that contains regulation.

There's been a lot of consultation done on it and they've analyzed what has been piloted in the UK by SSE and also what has been done in North America. They really want to get it right first time in a country that has quite a different demographic to other countries even in Europe.

I'm confident ESB Networks will get the job done. The only concern I would have is the actual installation of so many meters in such a tight timeline.

garbanzo

We got a letter from ESB inviting us to participate last week. Have signed up and will see what happens. I think they picked people at random.

Happy to let people know how it pans out if people are interested?

Guy:Incognito

andrewlownie101 wrote: »

Is it possible to opt out if the 'SMART METERING'?

Did you not opt out of society a couple of posts ago?



Your post is a scam. (doesnt have to mean anything but sticking that in randomly makes it true)

andrewlownie101

garbanzo wrote: »

We got a letter from ESB inviting us to participate last week. Have signed up and will see what happens. I think they picked people at random.

Happy to let people know how it pans out if people are interested?

If I sent you a letter inviting you to jump of a cliff would you sign up? I've got a nice letterhead.

You don't know what you have gotten yourself into.

oscarBravo

andrewlownie101 wrote: »

If I sent you a letter inviting you to jump of a cliff would you sign up? I've got a nice letterhead.

You don't know what you have gotten yourself into.

Enough trolling. Banned.

garbanzo

Ok, as promised here's the update. I received a letter inviting me to participate in the smart meter project. I duly sent back my letter confirming I was happy to participate. Got a letter shortly afterwards from the ESB saying I can expect contact in early November re installing the smart meter.

Since then . . . . . I know, you've guessed it . . . . I have heard absolutely nothing from the ESB ! Have sent in three emails chasing this up . . . . have heard nothing.

Doesn't really inspire confidence in the system does it !

Heroditas

garbanzo wrote: »

Ok, as promised here's the update. I received a letter inviting me to participate in the smart meter project. I duly sent back my letter confirming I was happy to participate. Got a letter shortly afterwards from the ESB saying I can expect contact in early November re installing the smart meter.

Since then . . . . . I know, you've guessed it . . . . I have heard absolutely nothing from the ESB ! Have sent in three emails chasing this up . . . . have heard nothing.

Doesn't really inspire confidence in the system does it !

There were issues regarding the meters. There were a couple of software glitches and these have now been fixed.
The first meters are being installed this week so it could well be January before you get yours.
Even then, depending on which Customer Behaviour Trial grouping you fit into, the real pilot won't start until late next year.

garbanzo

I am pleased to report that Mr and Mrs Garbanzo are now the proud owners of a "Smart Meter".

The fellah from the ESB landed (unannounced) yesterday afternoon and changed us over. I asked him what would happen from here . . . . he said " I don't really know". In fairness he the said he thought that ESB would be in touch in a few weeks and mentioned something called "shadow meter reading" where you will get your regular ESB bill - and another - which will illustrate the savings you could have made to your bill if you had a real smart meter.

Apparently this is progress in modern ireland !

Happy to keep people up to date with our experience if people are arsed?

BendiBus

garbanzo wrote: »

Happy to keep people up to date with our experience if people are arsed?

I'm definitely arsed :P

Keep us updated.

robtri

garbanzo wrote: »

I am pleased to report that Mr and Mrs Garbanzo are now the proud owners of a "Smart Meter".

The fellah from the ESB landed (unannounced) yesterday afternoon and changed us over. I asked him what would happen from here . . . . he said " I don't really know". In fairness he the said he thought that ESB would be in touch in a few weeks and mentioned something called "shadow meter reading" where you will get your regular ESB bill - and another - which will illustrate the savings you could have made to your bill if you had a real smart meter.

Apparently this is progress in modern ireland !

Happy to keep people up to date with our experience if people are arsed?

yep keep us all updated....

Heroditas

garbanzo wrote: »

I am pleased to report that Mr and Mrs Garbanzo are now the proud owners of a "Smart Meter".

The fellah from the ESB landed (unannounced) yesterday afternoon and changed us over. I asked him what would happen from here . . . . he said " I don't really know". In fairness he the said he thought that ESB would be in touch in a few weeks and mentioned something called "shadow meter reading" where you will get your regular ESB bill - and another - which will illustrate the savings you could have made to your bill if you had a real smart meter.

Apparently this is progress in modern ireland !

Happy to keep people up to date with our experience if people are arsed?

What exactly would you like to know?
The ESB have had to outsource a lot of the installation work. The grunts doing the installation wouldn't know the finer ins and outs of the project because there is still a lot of the finer details to be decided.
The meter will now gather data for the next few months before the customer behavious trial officially commences - this will act as the benchmark data collection period.
You're not being kept in the dark.

probe

Heroditas wrote: »

What exactly would you like to know?
The ESB have had to outsource a lot of the installation work. The grunts doing the installation wouldn't know the finer ins and outs of the project because there is still a lot of the finer details to be decided.
The meter will now gather data for the next few months before the customer behavious trial officially commences - this will act as the benchmark data collection period.
You're not being kept in the dark.

Why do they need to outsource "a lot of the installation work?" A not inconsiderable part of the cost of government agencies is their tendency to outsource to the private sector work they are being well paid and well staffed to do themselves. The ESB is heavily staffed relative to the scale of their operations.

Retraining and redeployment of people rather than running up big outsourcing bills. (Or using outsourcing bills as an excuse for delaying the installation of smart meters)!

Heroditas

probe wrote: »

Why do they need to outsource "a lot of the installation work?" A not inconsiderable part of the cost of government agencies is their tendency to outsource to the private sector work they are being well paid and well staffed to do themselves. The ESB is heavily staffed relative to the scale of their operations.

Retraining and redeployment of people rather than running up big outsourcing bills. (Or using outsourcing bills as an excuse for delaying the installation of smart meters)!

Apologies, Networks are in the process of training additional technicians to carry out the work.
It's still going to be a very labour intensive project when you consider all the additional day to day work they also have to carry out. Hence why they might need to outsource part of the work.

quentingargan

The trial of smart meters is randomised, and for that reason, participants are not invited to self-select.

The only exception is if you are a micro-generator (your own turbine or solar PVs with an EN50438 compliant inverter) where priority is being given to those selling electricity to the grid from their home.

pkmwgs

I have tried several times to get a smart meter without success. i own a compliant wind generator. we were suppose to get the first 100 meters free a couple of years ago. i was number three on the list and havent heard anything since. we were to pay for installation only. [typical esb]

DoverMan

anyone know where smart meters are currently available in Ireland i.e installed

quentingargan

pkmwgs wrote: »

I have tried several times to get a smart meter without success. i own a compliant wind generator. we were suppose to get the first 100 meters free a couple of years ago. i was number three on the list and havent heard anything since. we were to pay for installation only. [typical esb]

CER announced that ESB is now to buy your power for 9c. There's more on that under this topic

Davy

DoverMan wrote: »

anyone know where smart meters are currently available in Ireland i.e installed

You can only get a smart meter if chosen by esb at this moment in time.

garbanzo

BendiBus wrote: »

I'm definitely arsed :P

Keep us updated.

eh . . . . nothing new to report I'm afraid.:mad:

Davy

These are still only being installed so it will be another while yet for anything is probably reported.

OU812

Anyone know what happened with these trials ?

Heroditas

A full national rollout is being planned

OU812

Probably happen in another six years

Heroditas

OU812 wrote: »

Probably happen in another six years

Work is well underway at some levels of the programme.
An 80% rollout must be complete by 2020.

So yes ... 6 years!