Public Order Fines. Police state etc...

deadwood

New legislation which might save valuable Garda resources from lengthy spells in stations...and courtrooms.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7616715.stm

Obviously, gardai wll be dishing these out to grannies after a couple of chocolate liqueurs yadda, yadda...

Eru

We already have the ability to tell people to leave under the public order Act which also allowed us to seize alcohol, Dublin general bye laws also allowed us to seize closed containers so these new laws make absolutely no difference to me.

Fines are a dangerous one, section 4 and 6 POA 94 goes to court because they are criminal offences. By paying the fine will you be getting a criminal record and how many can you recieve? Will they operate with a penalty point system or something similar? Who will enforce payment? Half the court fines arent paid as it is because we dont have the manpower to enforce the bloody warrants. Nice idea but I dont see it being a great time saver too be honest.

Also worried about the first part, fines for being drunk on its own? Surely there needs to be more to it than that? Like in Section 4, danger to yourself, etc.

deadwood

I saw this being discussed on After Hours and thought it might be of some interest here.
There's the usual discussion about Gardai pocketing money and fining anything with a whiff of booze, but most seem in favour.
It seems we'll be using PDA/usb devices and uploading at the end of tour. That's worked really well with the FCPS system.:rolleyes:
I presume the level of drunkeness will be similar to Section 4, but sure, you know what money grabbing thugs the gardai are!

Eru

deadwood wrote: »

I saw this being discussed on After Hours and thought it might be of some interest here.
There's the usual discussion about Gardai pocketing money and fining anything with a whiff of booze, but most seem in favour.
It seems we'll be using PDA/usb devices and uploading at the end of tour. That's worked really well with the FCPS system.:rolleyes:
I presume the level of drunkeness will be similar to Section 4, but sure, you know what money grabbing thugs the gardai are!

I know, my bed doesnt touch the ground because of all the sticky, dirty and smelly cans of Dutch gold I keep taking of spunkers

Karlos_Sparky

Spunkers !!!! Ha .............. LMAO

the locust

Surely if someone gets a fine on the spot for being intoxicated/abusive they are still arrested - brought to the station and processed as normal,
Only difference is, instead of charge sheets and court etc they are FCPS'ed? and if they want to contest it they can go to court as usual, Is that correct?

Surely that saves money, time, stress etc... with guards having to go to court etc... I think this will be the start of a big change thats already happening.

cushtac

the locust wrote: »

Surely if someone gets a fine on the spot for being intoxicated/abusive they are still arrested - brought to the station and processed as normal,
Only difference is, instead of charge sheets and court etc they are FCPS'ed? and if they want to contest it they can go to court as usual, Is that correct?

That was how it was described in one of the papers over the weekend.

If it works for traffic offences there's no reason it shouldn't work for low-level public order stuff.

deadwood

The idea mightn't be a bad one but it costs nothing to introduce a law. What practical measures will be put in place? What about drunk tanks/detention centres?

If I give a ticket to a man on the street I deem to be a danger to himself and/or others, surely I can't put a ticket in his arse pocket and send him on his merry way to get knocked down or take his anger out on the real victims in all this - cones, trees and shopping trolleys.

If I take him to the station he'll still have to go through the books (which is about to turn into a 6 page document, so no speeding up the process there!) and how do I decide if he is charged/summoned or gets a fine on the spot?

Will this system deprive someone of the benefit of the Adult Cautioning Scheme?

I dunno.

Is this scheme in place all over the UK? Any feedback?

timmywex

In relation to that act, has the test purchasing system been bought into play yet?

TheNog

As Deadwood was saying. THe only reason a person is arrested for S4 POA is if they are a danger to themselves or others, so if I see a fella staggering down the road in front of traffic do I just FCPS him and let him off. What if he is struck by a car and injured? Will someone come back to me and ask why didn't I arrest him??

I would support a FCPS type fine for urinating in public or for someone breaching the peace. Also the fines should be increased to at least €150. People nowadays have too much money but that is changing. The higher the fine the better and more deterrent.

Here is a potential problem, how do we say that a person did in fact get paperwork on the offence and fine? Do we ask for ID? Most people don't carry ID except for the younger people. If they have no ID do we have to arrest them then?

bryanmurr

I'd presume he/sh is still arrested and brought to the station to sober up. Then given the FCPS in the post. So we're saving time on doing up the sheets etc. Probably aimed at easing the amount of people clogging up the court system.

metman

deadwood wrote: »

If I give a ticket to a man on the street I deem to be a danger to himself and/or others, surely I can't put a ticket in his arse pocket and send him on his merry way to get knocked down or take his anger out on the real victims in all this - cones, trees and shopping trolleys.

If I take him to the station he'll still have to go through the books (which is about to turn into a 6 page document, so no speeding up the process there!) and how do I decide if he is charged/summoned or gets a fine on the spot?

Will this system deprive someone of the benefit of the Adult Cautioning Scheme?

I dunno.

Is this scheme in place all over the UK? Any feedback?

The setup here is that you can issue FPNs (fixed penalty notices) for low level theft, crim dam, drunk & disorderly, wasting police time, Section 5 of the public order act (disorderly behaviour causing harassment, alarm or distress) and a number of other minor offences.

The ticket for drunk and dis works as a means of case disposal once the person has sobered up, as, if he's drunk enough to warrant the ticket then he's not fit to be issued one on the street (as one needs to understand what's being signed for etc). Similarly they can't be issued to juveniles.

As regards how it affects an adult caution, well it doesn't really. Its at the Sergeant/OICs discretion as to whether a ticket or caution will be issued.

To be honest I've issued very few tickets, of those that I have issued they've mostly been for low level criminal damage (petty disputes that have resulted in a car getting scratched or a window broken etc), and occasionally to a shoplifter where there have been factors in favour of keeping it out of court. Its a way of resulting a job that shouldn't be taking up court time but that can't be squared up by other means.

As regards the public order offences, personally I'd rather be bringing people in for mouthing off than issuing them with tickets, but ultimately on a friday night it gives you another option in your toolbox instead of having to take everything into custody.

Eru

Ok ok, this is covered under the AGS portal on PULSE and having been bored today I looked it up.

The person will be arrested and detained as normal, on release they will be informed they are being dealt with by a fixed fine and it will shown in the custody record.

It seems pretty much like you deal with a summons except the fine is set and theres not an automatic court date. The thing about this just like adult cautions is that the courts will not deal with a case now (In Dublin anyway) unless the person has been given a caution so presumable this is just another step on the ladder before you see a judge.

If it works I am all for it but we need to see if it works or will it just be more paperwork. S4 for example, I work in the city and we have about 50 resident alcoholics that simple wont pay the fines so it will just result in delayed summons against these people instead of the current system of charging and tracking forms. End result, more Gardai in court with these guys not less.

One point which interests me is fines for shoplifting, Met mentions that its an option on the UK and I know in a few mainland countries the shop security fines people themselves without the cops even being called. Im dubious on that one but it seems to work and explains the look of horror on a French / Spanish students face when they realise the cuffs are coming out and a cell awaits.

FGR

I hate to rain on everyone's parade but we all know what road this is going down..

I'm unsure of the case with the DMR but most country Divisions are required to submit a complete investigation file for all matters regardless of whether they are suited for Adult Caution or not..hence removing the one -benefit- of Adult Caution. This is also the case with bye laws relating to drinking on the streets. If anything I can only imagine these tickets being yet another complete hinderance..

If they were to allow the failure to pay to become a straight SA1, like with most Road Traffic Offences..that will most certainly free up Garda time. The only beneficiary is the courts..yet however it's still not a proper solution.

Only my 2 cents, mind.

djtechnics1210

ForegoneReality wrote: »

I hate to rain on everyone's parade but we all know what road this is going down..

I'm unsure of the case with the DMR but most country Divisions are required to submit a complete investigation file for all matters regardless of whether they are suited for Adult Caution or not..hence removing the one -benefit- of Adult Caution. This is also the case with bye laws relating to drinking on the streets. If anything I can only imagine these tickets being yet another complete hinderance..

If they were to allow the failure to pay to become a straight SA1, like with most Road Traffic Offences..that will most certainly free up Garda time. The only beneficiary is the courts..yet however it's still not a proper solution.

Only my 2 cents, mind.

There is nothing stated in any legal area, garda code etc etc that members must submit a file for every matter dealt with (this includes outside DMR), this is only a procedure brought in by supers and inspectors - apparently they like a file so they dont have to chase up members for info if it ever goes to court and also if the s**t hits fan somewhere down the road - already committed to paper so mule gets blame
Brass love paper and always will

deadwood

bryanmurr wrote: »

I'd presume he/sh is still arrested and brought to the station to sober up. Then given the FCPS in the post. So we're saving time on doing up the sheets etc. Probably aimed at easing the amount of people clogging up the court system.

Got a look at the policy and this pretty much sums up how it's used.

As far s I can see, it's designed to reduce the number of S4/5 summons/charge sheets in court which is fair enough...in theory.

I suppose an actual fine on the spot (i.e. on the street) would only be workable for S5/6/8 in tandem with a reliable i.d. S4 would still require arrest & detention for safety. I think we're a long way off giving Gardai Judge&Jury capabilities for these though (sure we'd go bananas altogether).

Look what's going on with the Road Traffic FCPS though. To my eyes, there has been a huge increase in Road Traffic summons in court because of the amazing amount of notices that get "lost in the post".
At least with these Public Order fines, they'll get a notice on release which they must sign for, which might eliminate this loophole.

End result, though? More summons to be served and more warrants to be executed. The only people that will gain are the Taxi drivers!

deadwood

In the Times this morning.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0917/1221599424016.html

This is gonna be fun!

djtechnics1210

Well said Metman - thats irish journalists for ya though.

CO19

What's the story with on the spot fines ? if you get one do you have to pay it there and then to the Guard or what ? or do you just get the piece of paper and pay later

deadwood

You'd be arrested, given a piece of paper to inform you you will receive a fine in the post.

When we hear "on the spot" we assume this means money will change hands there and then. In this country, at least, it means you'll only receive a penalty on the spot, bypassing a court case.

CO19

Ah I see thanks I thought that you had to hand over money there and then and was thinking "what if I don't have that much money on me" but it's also good to know that you don't have to hand actual money over to a guard because that'd be just crazy,anyway thanks again

deadwood

metman wrote: »

From said Irish Times article:What a poorly thought out and poorly written article.

Is there a bit of the Devils Advocate in the article though?
I thought he was pointing out what possible scenarios might arise for picking holes in the legislation as happens, e.g., with every potentially life-saving piece of Road Traffic legislation?

deadwood

CO19 wrote: »

Ah I see thanks I thought that you had to hand over money there and then and was thinking "what if I don't have that much money on me" but it's also good to know that you don't have to hand actual money over to a guard because that'd be just crazy,anyway thanks again

Imagine the sight of a guard taking a wad of cash from a drunk on the street?:eek: I wouldn't want to see that one on youtube.

CO19

deadwood wrote: »

Imagine the sight of a guard taking a wad of cash from a drunk on the street?:eek: I wouldn't want to see that one on youtube.

Ahhhh why not ??

deadwood

CO19 wrote: »

Ahhhh why not ??

My modelling agency has licencing issues.:D

CO19

deadwood wrote: »

My modelling agency has licencing issues.:D

but you'll be robbing enough money from people to help pay for the license

deadwood

CO19 wrote: »

but you'll be robbing enough money from people to help pay for the license

If I was that concerned about money, I would have become a Solicitor!

deadwood

metman wrote: »

Airfix or clay?

I'm going to go all Naomi Campbell on you ass!
Airfix? Showing your age there.:P

CO19

deadwood wrote: »

If I was that concerned about money, I would have become a Solicitor!

Ahhh very good

Eru

I dont think its Devils advocate here, I think the author is trying to make himself look smart by pointing out all the 'obvious' flaws and legal arguements that will be made however considering the fines will be issued for things that have been in law, in court and sentenced daily since 1994 he is talking ****.

The arguement against fines being against presumption of innocence is laughable considering traffic tickets have existed for years as have CIE / Dublin bus fare dodging tickets and even General bye law tickets for...... Drinking in public! But sure thats not a crime is it?

The end comment is clearly because thr writer has an issue with Gardai, im guessing he is the kind of journalist that has never actually seen public order incidents and fancies himself as a 'real' hardman who is far tougher and braver than cowardly police officers :rolleyes:

timmywex

metman wrote: »

Here fines can't be issued to juveniles.....

Oh, I learn something new everyday

eroo

metman wrote: »

I'm actually a 17 year old Walter, but keep it quiet as I'm managing to pull it off so far

Is that aimed at me?

TheNog

metman wrote: »

I'm actually a 17 year old Walter, but keep it quiet as I'm managing to pull it off so far

eroo wrote: »

Is that aimed at me?

Of course not, he said "Walter" not waiter!!!!!! :D

deadwood

TheNog wrote: »

Of course not, he said "Walter" not waiter!!!!!! :D

eroo wrote: »

Is that aimed at me?

If metman was aiming at you, that'd be the last thing you didn't see....or something.