Building - best way to go

Brockagh

We're looking to build a house (subject to planning premission etc). We have what seems to be a very good architect, who is offering to do the job for 10%, which seems to be at the lower end of what I heard.

Is letting the architect manage the project the way to go? Or should I get an architect to do the drawings and get someone else to manage the building?

Apologies if this has been covered already. If so, maybe someone could point me to where it has been discussed.

Thanks

John

RKQ

Brockagh wrote: »

We're looking to build a house (subject to planning premission etc). We have what seems to be a very good architect, who is offering to do the job for 10%, which seems to be at the lower end of what I heard.

These issues have been covered in many different treads but its worth discussing again.

IMO 10% of the progect cost would be the higher scale. Multi-million Euro Commercial projects might justify such a fee but a house does not.

What is the floor area?
Is it a high spec Contempory design surpassing the latest insulation requirements?

If your house costs 300,000 then your Architect is 30,000. Whats included in his fee - thats a years salary to some people!

30K could be justified if it includes, design, planning,working drawings, fees, contracts, full supervision ie someone on site every day! A "turn key" project, where you simply discuss the design and write the cheques!

IMO 10 site visits / meeting inc Mortgage Certification 2K max. (Reading Boards.ie)
IMO traditional house design & planning 2 -4K max. (Reading Boards.ie)

IMO its always better to have the same Architect, Architectural Technician or Engineer supervise / certify the construction stage especially if He / She designed the structure. They should know it like the back of their hand, which will help on site.

Personally, I like to supervise all my own designs. I did make the mistake of inspecting a project designed by others - never a good idea - always difficult to "get into the mind" of the designer - What were they thinking! As I wasn't involved in the design stage, it was difficult to know the ethos of the design.

IMO Good design shouldn't cost more than bad design - design is subjective.

Brockagh

Thanks for the info. We are planning something around 2,000 to 2,500 sq ft. I have no idea about these things. I just looked up the fees in some "build your own home" publication and it said that architects' fees are between 10% and 18%. That's why I thought it was a good quotation, but as I said, I haven't a clue about these things.

The architect we're talking to will manage the project, and design interior, visit the site about two to three times per week.

Also, I'm sure this has been asked 1,000 times, but what is generally the cost per sq ft or sq metre in the Dublin area? Are these prices coming down?

Dizzyblonde

I'd definitely recommend having it project managed by your architect. We built a house last year and our architect was brilliant - and he had meetings every few weeks with us and the builders.
It's probably different if you work in the construction trade yourself, but if you don't then you need someone really good managing it for you.

sinnerboy

Brockagh wrote: »

Thanks for the info. We are planning something around 2,000 to 2,500 sq ft. I have no idea about these things. I just looked up the fees in some "build your own home" publication and it said that architects' fees are between 10% and 18%. That's why I thought it was a good quotation, but as I said, I haven't a clue about these things.

The architect we're talking to will manage the project, and design interior, visit the site about two to three times per week.

Also, I'm sure this has been asked 1,000 times, but what is generally the cost per sq ft or sq metre in the Dublin area? Are these prices coming down?

10% is on the low side . It is a keen bid .

Costs per m2 around M50 - about €2k for good standard turn key . Can go up if you have expensive tastes for finishes , and fittings . Or if you want more than basic external works

muffler

RKQ wrote: »

IMO 10% of the progect cost would be the higher scale. Multi-million Euro Commercial projects might justify such a fee but a house does not.

A lot of architects will charge this and more especially if they are into project management. Therefore I would agree with the OP that it could be the lower end. A lot depends on the area the build is in and who is looking after it.

RKQ wrote: »

30K could be justified if it includes, design, planning,working drawings, fees, contracts, full supervision ie someone on site every day! A "turn key" project, where you simply discuss the design and write the cheques!

Again if its an architect it will be at least this but it theres not a snowball's chance in hell of having the architect on site every day. If that was the case then the OP would expect to pay 15%.

RKQ wrote: »

IMO 10 site visits / meeting inc Mortgage Certification 2K max. (Reading Boards.ie)
IMO traditional house design & planning 2 -4K max. (Reading Boards.ie

I dont know where you read that on boards.ie but it wasnt on this on this forum anyhow. Those figures may have been mentioned once or twice where the supervising architect/engineer was a friend or relation or whatever but would be the minimum in those situations and certainly not the maximum. I would have to disagree entirely with those figures.


This whole area of people looking for advice on planning, building supervising is something that needs careful replies posted. As the regulars here know (or should know) the prices will vary depending on a lot of factors and there can be huge differences involved.

I would hate to see someone walk away from this forum believing they are going to be provided with a service for X amount when in actual fact it will cost Y amount in reality.

Dr. Nick

Your architect is offering to 'do the job'? But what does that involve exactly? Replace a contractor on a self-build? If that's the case, and he does ALL trhe donkey-work, then yeah, that might be an option. Otherwise, it's crazy.

Also, the more local trades you get the cheaper the cost - and I mean local as in personal recommendations of family and friends.

Brockagh

I forgot to say that I hope to go as far as I can with the insulation and energy efficiency. I know this will cost extra.

I will also have to read up on this forum on that aspect of it. I don't have a clue which way to go - solar, insulation, geothermal and whatever else. Probably a combination of all or some.

The build will be inside the M50.

There may be two houses built, so hopefully there will be some sort of economy of scale.

Dr. Nick

If it's inside the M50, you should go outside the M50 for quotes - which I realise contradicts my last post

Dr. Nick

Cost per sq foot outside Dublin is €130-€140. In Dublin, it must be €160+

But it's a good time to be shopping (like me)

RKQ

muffler wrote: »

I dont know where you read that on boards.ie but it wasnt on this on this forum anyhow. Those figures may have been mentioned once or twice where the supervising architect/engineer was a friend or relation or whatever but would be the minimum in those situations and certainly not the maximum. I would have to disagree entirely with those figures.

This whole area of people looking for advice on planning, building supervising is something that needs careful replies posted. As the regulars here know (or should know) the prices will vary depending on a lot of factors and there can be huge differences involved.

I have seen these fees mentioned on a number of posts.

I would also hate to see someone walk away from this forum believing they are going to be provided with a service for X amount when in actual fact it will cost Y amount in reality. (The prices quoted are my opinion only - they reflect current fees in my area)

I would advise the OP to ring around locally and to get a number of quotes from Engineers, Architects and Architectural Technicians, in private practice with full PI insurance.

The cost of a house design will, no double depend on a number of factors, including size, site, style, number of sketch designs / alterations etc. Local area is a big factor especially within the M50.

But the fees I've quoted above are real, by Professional Practices in the South East. I known of a number that charge €1300 - €1500 +vat for 7 to 10 site visits including stage payments & Certificates of Compliance - for a standard 4 bedroom 2100 sq ft house. Inspecting open foundation trenches, concrete floor pour and maintaining a photographic record of all construction.

Such a fee & service is fine on the average house build, such a fee would not include tendering or appointing sub-contractors. But the average Client is easily capable of such works. Getting prices from at least 3 reputable Building Contractors / sub-contractors, is not difficult, once you have a detail Specification and detailed working drawings.

I am very interested in knowing what people are being charged for Site inspection/ Stage payments including Certification, in their local area. Might be worth consider a new tread!

I have no wish to mislead the Op.
I do believe that 10% for a Project Manager is very competitive.
I would say a Project Manager is a person that will take the project from Planning Permission grant to completion on site, organising everything - Contracts, Contractor / all sub-contractors, all materials, deliveries, payments etc. This person would have a list of contacts so that the works can be carried out on schedule ( if a sub-contractor is delayed on another job, he can be replaced by another sub-contractor, without much delay)

I suppose my main points are

• Get a number of quotes, from a number of design Professionals,
• Make sure you know exactly what is included in the 10% fee,
• Retain by reputation, if possible ( Word of mouth from family & friends or completed projects)
• Prices with vary depending on region and level of service required.

gally74

hello,

are you sure you need an architech, an engineer who also does house design should suffice, depending on your requirments,

if you self build, expect around 70 euro per sq foot, 10K for services and fees and finishes after that,

Im building block built but in hindsight would have gone for timber frame for air tightness.

p

sydthebeat

gally74 wrote: »

hello,

are you sure you need an architech, an engineer who also does house design should suffice, depending on your requirments,

if you self build, expect around 70 euro per sq foot, 10K for services and fees and finishes after that,

Im building block built but in hindsight would have gone for timber frame for air tightness.

p

thats like asking a Vet to diagnose your illness. (generalisation, but true)

if you want a standard no frills yellwo-pack house then yes, maybe an engineer can give you want you want, however if you want an architecturally designed house then hire someone whohas specific training and knowledge in the area.

if you self-build, and hav eno experience of building or project management, then expect to pay out of you own pocket to remedy mistakes which will invariably happen, and expect to end up with
(a) a much longer build, period
(b) lesser workmanship
(c) higher running costs.

gally74

thats like asking a Vet to diagnose your illness. (generalisation, but true)

if you want a standard no frills yellwo-pack house then yes, maybe an engineer can give you want you want, however if you want an architecturally designed house then hire someone whohas specific training and knowledge in the area.

"yellow pack - nuts" unless your really going for some mad design, an engineer should suffice

if you self-build, and hav eno experience of building or project management, then expect to pay out of you own pocket to remedy mistakes which will invariably happen, and expect to end up with
(a) a much longer build, period

not in the current market, builder might take longer

(b) lesser workmanship

not in the current market, you can get what you want, some builder work leaves a lot to be deisred

(c) higher running costs.

running costs, please explain?

__________________
.. i suppose it was just a matter of being offhand about things......


Mod edit: gally74 please use multi quote or wrap quote tags around selected text.

muffler

RKQ wrote: »

I would advise the OP to ring around locally and to get a number of quotes from Engineers, Architects and Architectural Technicians, in private practice with full PI insurance.

The cost of a house design will, no double depend on a number of factors, including size, site, style, number of sketch designs / alterations etc. Local area is a big factor especially within the M50.

I would agree fully with that.

RKQ wrote: »

But the fees I've quoted above are real, by Professional Practices in the South East. I known of a number that charge €1300 - €1500 +vat for 7 to 10 site visits including stage payments & Certificates of Compliance - for a standard 4 bedroom 2100 sq ft house. Inspecting open foundation trenches, concrete floor pour and maintaining a photographic record of all construction.

But are they architects?

RKQ wrote: »

I am very interested in knowing what people are being charged for Site inspection/ Stage payments including Certification, in their local area. Might be worth consider a new tread!

A damn good idea - would you mind starting one as it would benefit a lot of people.

RKQ wrote: »

I do believe that 10% for a Project Manager is very competitive.

IMO 10% of the progect cost would be the higher scale.

Not being picky but a wee bit of a contradiction.

RKQ wrote: »

I suppose my main points are

• Get a number of quotes, from a number of design Professionals,
• Make sure you know exactly what is included in the 10% fee,
• Retain by reputation, if possible ( Word of mouth from family & friends or completed projects)
• Prices with vary depending on region and level of service required.

Again I would agree with that.

Slig

gally74 wrote: »

"yellow pack - nuts" unless your really going for some mad design, an engineer should suffice



not in the current market, builder might take longer




not in the current market, you can get what you want, some builder work leaves a lot to be deisred



running costs, please explain?

__________________
.. i suppose it was just a matter of being offhand about things......


Mod edit: gally74 please use multi quote or wrap quote tags around selected text.

As I have posted here before, I am an AT and I have worked with both engineers and architects. Heres just a few things I have noticed.
Engineers will generally be more available to be on site, will be very interrested in founds, floors, blockwork, roofs and services. What they generally fall down on are the details and finishes, DPC lapping details, insulation at reveals etc. I am not saying architects are perfect, they are far from it. They will be harder to get on site, may still require an engineer to spec reinforcing, lintels and steel etc. but are probably more capable of handling the scheduling part, which will be a major factor in bringing the house in on budget and on time.

rathmore

Guys for certification and sign off €1700 on 2900 sq ft in kildare. This includes 12 site visits, snag and BER cert.

sydthebeat

rathmore wrote: »

Guys for certification and sign off €1700 on 2900 sq ft in kildare. This includes 12 site visits, snag and BER cert.

incredibly low quote.

the ber assessment and publication of cert alone could cost €400.
Thus the 12 site visits equate to €66 each... the guy must work next door!!!!

gally74

i piad 250 per stadge payment, engineer was always available to answer questions etc. his draftsman was A1, blocklayer complemnted him on his dimensions, etc, half block or full block,

planning application came to 1950 including vat,

Brockagh

Architects are now quoting us between 5k and 13k for design up to planning now. Although we've a few more to see before making any decisions.

I heard that lots of architects are unemployed now, so maybe the price will come down further.

Slig

Maybe, But alot of people in the pharmacutical industry are now unemployed aswell and a pack of Paracetamol still costs the same.

every quote you get, make sure there is a fee proposal aswell that lists what is covered. Just like accurate tender drawings and specs will prevent hidden extras an accurate fee proposal should prevent any nasty surprises. I cant reccomend references highly enough. Dont hire anybody on your build by price alone

Brockagh

Slig wrote: »

Maybe, But alot of people in the pharmacutical industry are now unemployed aswell and a pack of Paracetamol still costs the same.

every quote you get, make sure there is a fee proposal aswell that lists what is covered. Just like accurate tender drawings and specs will prevent hidden extras an accurate fee proposal should prevent any nasty surprises. I cant reccomend references highly enough. Dont hire anybody on your build by price alone

Thanks for the info. The architects we've looked at so far have all been recomended by friends, bar one.

Pharmcuticals and services are different. I'm not sure it's a good comparison. There are a lot of unemployed builders and building prices have certainly gone down. I think that's a better comparison.