Ryanair Tailstrike

Danbo!

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlqlkfidgb/

Apparently the tailskid hit the ground on take off. Cue everyone slating ryanair again.

11/09/2008 - 13:32:09
A Ryanair flight had to make an emergency landing shortly after take off at Dublin Airport today.

The flight, from Dublin to London, was forced to land at around 11.40am this morning and oxygen masks were dropped into the cabin.

The incident happened when the plane's tailskid touched the runway during the take off.

The plane was carrying 148 passengers at the time and no-one was injured.

EDIT:I'm a little confused as to why the oxygen masks dropped.

*Kol*

I didn't read that properly at first. They struck on take off. I dont see why they would deplot the masks. They wouldn't get anywhere near 10000 feet if they knew that the tail had hit and requested to make a landing straight away.

Unless they didn't realise they had struck the tail and they couldn't pressurise due to wearing a hole in the skin in the pressurised area? Then the masks would have dropped automatically.

gman086

it's ryanair, i'm supprised the landing gear didn't fall off. they should count themselves lucky.:D

RebelButtMunch

some good info here
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_1_07/article_02_1.html

Celtic Mech

Cant understand why the press has jumped up in arms over this incident. Im no fan of ryanair, but tail strikes are not too unusual! With the 737-800, there is a crushable container around the area that would impact. Depending on the extent of damage on this, the amount of inspections called up are determined.
Im unsure as to the reason why the oxy masks dropped. Maybe its ryanairs operating procedures to deploy the masks in such case, if there are any ryanair pilots here they will be able to shed some light on this

Duiske

gman086 wrote: »

it's ryanair, i'm supprised the landing gear didn't fall off. they should count themselves lucky.:D

Bit over the top gman. If the aviation authorities had safety issues with Ryanair, the fleet would be grounded. As CM says, tail strikes are quite common. Scary for passengers, and a pain for the airline with down time/repairs, but other than that its not particularly serious.

gman086

not a big fan of the air line clearly and recent reports that pilots have been asked to take on less fuel than is deemed safe due to rising oil costs. if they are cutting corners in this ( 5 other air lines have also been accused ) way would it really be such a leap to imagine that every safety precaution is not taken.

ectoraige

Some more information about the tailskids on 737-800s. The author advises visual inspection upon handover "to prove that it was not you that scraped it"... I think it sets the appropriate tone. It's not unknown to happen, I believe high-winds are a common contributory factor.

I watched something sometime back where a tailstrike had damaged the pressure bulkhead but it wasn't repaired correctly and on a subsequent flight, there was an explosive decompression leading to the flight being lost. (Korean perhaps). Note: that was a case of bad repairs.

The bulkhead probably was damaged leading to the masks being deployed automatically. I guess upsetting for Ryanair's operations management, and traumatizing for the passengers involved, but probably not worthy of the wave of vilification we'll see shortly.

Biro

gman086 wrote: »

not a big fan of the air line clearly and recent reports that pilots have been asked to take on less fuel than is deemed safe due to rising oil costs. if they are cutting corners in this ( 5 other air lines have also been accused ) way would it really be such a leap to imagine that every safety precaution is not taken.

You don't know what you're talking about.

egan007

gman086 wrote: »

not a big fan of the air line clearly and recent reports that pilots have been asked to take on less fuel than is deemed safe due to rising oil costs. if they are cutting corners in this ( 5 other air lines have also been accused ) way would it really be such a leap to imagine that every safety precaution is not taken.

Yeah and I hear Michael O'Leary Hit's old women..and steals kids lunch money

source?.....

Fratton Fred

I thought Ryanair were very strict on safety procedures, maintaining planes well within criteria etc.

Losing a plane, be it dropping out the sky and killings scores of people, or just having one break at an unfortunate time must cost an absolute fortune.

sounds scary though, what would it be like for the passengers, I presume the plane has to land again pretty promptly but can it cause any serious damage?

N2

From the B738 QRH:

[FONT=Arial,Bold]

TAILSTRIKE ON TAKEOFF

"Condition: [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]Airplane tail has contacted the ground during takeoff.
CAUTION: Do not pressurize airplane due to possible
structural damage.
PRESSURIZATION MODE selector . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MAN
OUTFLOW VALVE switch . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OPEN
Hold outflow valve switch in the OPEN position until
outflow VALVE position indicator shows valve full open.

Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport."

---

The 738 can be quite prone to tailstrike's, due to the lenght. They can be caused by mistrimmed stab,rotation at improper airspeed,trimming during rotation,excessive rotation rate and improper use of the flight director.
The masks dropping may have been caused by the impact of the strike, i've heard of this happening on hard landing's.

With regard to the comments about fuel...................total bo880xs.

[/FONT]

FOGOFUNK

Dont see how people keep slating ryanair. Procedure followed perfectly again. Didnt even hear anything on this today and I work in dublin airport. Just shows that its not a big deal if maintenance crews arent talking about it.

FlutterinBantam

gman086 wrote: »

not a big fan of the air line clearly and recent reports that pilots have been asked to take on less fuel than is deemed safe due to rising oil costs. if they are cutting corners in this ( 5 other air lines have also been accused ) way would it really be such a leap to imagine that every safety precaution is not taken.

Off the wall there friend.

Learn a bit more about aviation before you make those kind of comments.

Nonoperational

I'd be happier flying Ryanair (from a safety point of view) then 75% of the airlines out there. Rubbish to imply their low cost philosophy stretches to fuel and maintenance.

workaccount

Anybody have a recording of the ATC?

diverdriver

Workaccount, you can download a recording from liveATC.net in the archive section. It's the 10:30 to 11:00Z at EIDW which covers the whole thing from take off to landing. Unfortunately it covers several frequencies so some calls from FR208 are missed. Unfortunately clearance delivery clutters up too much airtime.

http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php

superhooper

Interesting link Diver. Seems there was decompression alright that is according to the traffic controller. According to Ryanair it returned purely for precautionary reasons.:rolleyes:

probe

Not all the oxygen masks appear to have functioned properly on this occasion too!

One would have thought that the IAA would have taken steps to ensure that the oxygen masks on all Boeing 737 aircraft on the Irish register were working properly and supplying oxygen - after the event over France, and the FAA advisory on corrosion problems affecting the actuation pins.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/terror-in-sky-as-ryanair-plane-suffers-tail-strike-13971910.html

The wind was blowing at around 32 km/h from the SW at the time, so one suspects that was not the cause of this tailstrike.

In my experience rough landings are a feature of flying on Ryanair, even in calm weather. Which makes one question the quality of the training the pilots get on these training courses they have to pay for themselves.

.probe

Danbo!

probe wrote: »

In my experience rough landings are a feature of flying on Ryanair, even in calm weather. Which makes one question the quality of the training the pilots get on these training courses they have to pay for themselves.

:rolleyes:

Yep unskilled, good for nothing pilots. Bear in mind correct procedure was followed in this incident and the previous decompression a few weeks back. All passengers safe and back on the ground, aren't they?

Its a budget airline, this does not mean getting budget pilots in, there is no such thing.

N2

probe wrote: »

Not all the oxygen masks appear to have functioned properly on this occasion too!




The wind was blowing at around 32 km/h from the SW at the time, so one suspects that was not the cause of this tailstrike.

In my experience rough landings are a feature of flying on Ryanair, even in calm weather. Which makes one question the quality of the training the pilots get on these training courses they have to pay for themselves.

.probe

Please enlighten me as regards to when oxygen mask's appeared not to have functioned before on RYR, also with reference to your experience i presume you are qualified to comment on flight op's standard's and training.

Tenger

N2 wrote: »

Please enlighten me as regards to when oxygen mask's appeared not to have functioned before on RYR, also with reference to your experience i presume you are qualified to comment on flight op's standard's and training.

It is a known fact that some of the oxygen masks may not deploy. This is why the SOP is for the cabin crew to go through the cabin once the aircraft has leveled off to place masks on any pax who didn't get one in time. I was surprised that this did not seem to happen in the FR decompression/diversion last month. Cabin crew are told how to deploy them manually (this is mentioned in the Indo today,another scare article) EI have manual release gizmos as part of their cabin equipment.
As for the article claiming the 'stewardess was screaming'....well its hard to know how you would handle an incident in an aircraft until you've experienced it.

Its better to just ignore Probe.

On a vaguely similar vein: Boeing have also stated that they expect 1/4 of emergency slides to fail to deploy in an emergency....hence the reason for a maual inflation device to be operated by cabin crew.

gman086

just in reply to all the comments made on my statement of fuel cutting measures. if any one in here had the intelligence to read the irish times ( my source ) and discover that what i said is not b******X. as apposed to looking at t1ts in the sun. Also it has been claimed that numerous pilots from approx 7 different airlines ( source: the pilots themselves ) have had there jobs threatened if they do not fall in line with stretching fuel. Now anyone who would like to give INTELLIGENT feedback please do so!!!!!;)

A320-200

Heres some reading for you gman.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055367822
And to quote

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

What the airlines are trying to do is weed out the dude who always seems to take the extra 500kgs or tonne for no particular reason.

They are out there

Davidth88

On a vaguely similar vein: Boeing have also stated that they expect 1/4 of emergency slides to fail to deploy in an emergency....hence the reason for a maual inflation device to be operated by cabin crew.

Thats pretty shocking TBH, but thinking about it , remember the AF A340 that crashed off the end of the r/way in Canada didn't half those slides fail to deploy ? Jeez can you imagine using a foot pump on one of those slides , it takes ages to pump up a airbed :-)

Ill be honest if I was taking off and the oxy mask fell down , I wouldn't put it on , after all you are not that high... unless you are taking off from a high airport :-)

Tailskids used to happen a lot on the old DC8's.

Danbo!

The back slides weren't used because it was too near the fire, and of the two middle slides, 1 failed to deploy and the the other deployed, but was burst after being punctured by part of the aircraft. But you are right, in the case they do not deploy most people will panic and jump, like what happened in Toronto.

N2

gman086

While my intelligence to read The Irish Times is debateable, my intelligence to command a public transport has been proven. As a Capt. it has never been suggested or implyed to me to take less then then minimum fuel ( I'm sure your aware of the various elements that are used to come up with the minimum dispatchable fuel required). Futher to this a commander can take an extra 300KG's (company SOP) without having to justify the extra uplift, if there are other factors that require extra fuel over 300kgs (weather etc)this is noted on the voyage report. I have often taken tonnes extra and have NEVER..NEVER heard anything about it..................t*t's are good too.

Deacon Blues

probe wrote: »

Not all the oxygen masks appear to have functioned properly on this occasion too!

One would have thought that the IAA would have taken steps to ensure that the oxygen masks on all Boeing 737 aircraft on the Irish register were working properly and supplying oxygen - after the event over France, and the FAA advisory on corrosion problems affecting the actuation pins.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/terror-in-sky-as-ryanair-plane-suffers-tail-strike-13971910.html

The wind was blowing at around 32 km/h from the SW at the time, so one suspects that was not the cause of this tailstrike.

In my experience rough landings are a feature of flying on Ryanair, even in calm weather. Which makes one question the quality of the training the pilots get on these training courses they have to pay for themselves.

.probe

Probe, are you a troll ????

workaccount

Deacon Blues wrote: »

Probe, are you a troll ????

He might be a tabloid journalist.

Biro

gman086 wrote: »

just in reply to all the comments made on my statement of fuel cutting measures. if any one in here had the intelligence to read the irish times ( my source ) and discover that what i said is not b******X. as apposed to looking at t1ts in the sun. Also it has been claimed that numerous pilots from approx 7 different airlines ( source: the pilots themselves ) have had there jobs threatened if they do not fall in line with stretching fuel. Now anyone who would like to give INTELLIGENT feedback please do so!!!!!;)

If it's in the times then it must be fact, cause the times is the only paper to refuse ink if the facts are wrong!

highlydebased

workaccount wrote: »

He might be a tabloid journalist.

+1

FOGOFUNK

This forum is full of idiots/trolls. It goes from aviation discussion to safety pandemonium in seconds.

N2

For anyone interested the section below is from the Boeing 737-800 Flight Crew Operation's Manual Vol 2.

---

Passenger Oxygen System
The passenger oxygen system is supplied by individual chemical oxygen generators located at each Passenger Service Unit (PSU). Four continuous flow masks are connected to each generator. A generator with two masks is located above each attendant station and in each lavatory. The system is activated automatically by a pressure switch at a cabin altitude of 14,000 feet or when the Passenger Oxygen Switch on the aft overhead panel is positioned to ON. When the system is activated, the PASS OXY ON light illuminates and OVERHEAD illuminates on the Master Caution System. Activating the system causes the masks to drop from the stowage compartments. The oxygen generators are activated when any mask in the unit is pulled down. Pulling one mask down causes all masks in that unit to come down and 100% oxygen flows to all masks. A green in–line flow indicator is visible in the transparent oxygen hose whenever oxygen is flowing to the mask. Oxygen flows for approximately 12 minutes and cannot be shut off. If the passenger oxygen is activated and a PSU oxygen mask compartment does not open, the masks may be dropped manually.

September 29, 2005
737 Flight Crew Operations Manual
Airplane General, Emergency
Equipment, Doors, Windows
Systems Description
Copyright © The Boeing Company. See title page for details

Run_to_da_hills

Hearing on the news that this is a relatively common experience with up to 100 occurances per year, is there a "hard spot" in the rear of the plane to absorb the impact of a tail strike?

Tenger

Davidth88 wrote: »

Thats pretty shocking TBH, ......................Jeez can you imagine using a foot pump on one of those slides , it takes ages to pump up a airbed :-)

It is manual switch to inflate the slide if the auto inflate doesn't work. It still inflates the slide in 2-3 seconds.....thank God its not a foot pump,me with my wee thin legs!

therecklessone

Bramble wrote: »

It is manual switch to inflate the slide if the auto inflate doesn't work. It still inflates the slide in 2-3 seconds.....thank God its not a foot pump,me with my wee thin legs!

I also noted yesterday that BA include a mention of "in the event of the slide not inflating they can be manually inflated by pulling on a red tag near the bottom of the door" on their 747s (shameless plug for me flying into Vancouver yesterday...;))

probe

N2 wrote: »

Please enlighten me as regards to when oxygen mask's appeared not to have functioned before on RYR, also with reference to your experience i presume you are qualified to comment on flight op's standard's and training.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055364383

General aircraft type problem (not RYR specific)
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library\rgAD.nsf/0/41A326ACF2EBEED9862572AC0051B919?OpenDocument

Qualifications: backstreet driver (PAX who takes about 100 flights PA).

.probe

N2

Qualifications: backstreet driver (PAX who takes about 100 flights PA).

So your not quailifed on how to land a B738.

If the O2 system did not function on the GRO flight, some pax would have certainly become hypoxic at FL370. They didn't they suffered barotrauma which would happen regardless.

probe

Deacon Blues wrote: »

Probe, are you a troll ????

No I'm not. You lot are so sensitive :-) Any comments I make about FR should not be taken personally by anyone in the cockpit or cabin.

They are aimed at Michael. And even then they are not intended as an attack on him - he's too tough skinned anyway to think along those lines.

He is the person responsible for "system decisions" (eg 300 kg of fuel crap etc) in the organization.

I listened to the "ATC podcast" from yesterday for EIDW from 10h30 UTC, and couldn't help but wonder if FR208 was unable to "vacate the runway" after landing, and it was a very windy day limiting runway options, what would happen if there were four or five FR flights on hold on approach to EIDW suffering from Michael's tiny "baggage allowance" of fuel? While everything seems to have taken place smoothly - including the runway check, when it happens the next time, will those involved be so lucky in terms of weather etc?

It took quite a while for 208 to turn around and come back, and it sounded as if runway movements were on hold for quite some time in anticipation of the return of the mayday flight.

If nothing else, it is yet further evidence of the need for an additional runway at that airport to reduce pressure on the system and put some redundancy in the system.

.probe

diverdriver

Probe, I count a number of Ryanair pilots as personal friends. I'm sure they would be pleased to read this

The wind was blowing at around 32 km/h from the SW at the time, so one suspects that was not the cause of this tailstrike.

In my experience rough landings are a feature of flying on Ryanair, even in calm weather. Which makes one question the quality of the training the pilots get on these training courses they have to pay for themselves.

You have really made plain how little you know about your subject. First off this was a take off incident. No one is discussing landings. But for you info sometimes you do hit the ground harder than you want to. My last one was, ahem a bit strong. Strong and gusting winds are a factor in tailstrikes although it's too early to say what happened.

As for the training, you have no cause to criticise it A. Because you know nothing about the subject and B. It has never been raised as a issue by anyone, even the harshest critics of Ryanair. For your info, the fact that they pay for it has no bearing on whether or not they actually get offered a job. Pilots do fail the course on a regular basis even after they start line training. Very expensive for them but no mercy is shown.

If you want to have a sensible discussion about Ryanair, safety etc. Stop making stupid, tabloid like statements.

N2

Hear Hear..................

A320-200

+1

superhooper

What’s this got to do with the price of eggs? The problem was some masks didn't deploy. This is not necessarily a problem only encountered with Ryanair. It would be a considerably more interesting thread if people could stick to facts and not get so defensive.

N2 wrote: »

For anyone interested the section below is from the Boeing 737-800 Flight Crew Operation's Manual Vol 2.

---

Passenger Oxygen System
The passenger oxygen system is supplied by individual chemical oxygen generators located at each Passenger Service Unit (PSU). Four continuous flow masks are connected to each generator. A generator with two masks is located above each attendant station and in each lavatory. The system is activated automatically by a pressure switch at a cabin altitude of 14,000 feet or when the Passenger Oxygen Switch on the aft overhead panel is positioned to ON. When the system is activated, the PASS OXY ON light illuminates and OVERHEAD illuminates on the Master Caution System. Activating the system causes the masks to drop from the stowage compartments. The oxygen generators are activated when any mask in the unit is pulled down. Pulling one mask down causes all masks in that unit to come down and 100% oxygen flows to all masks. A green in–line flow indicator is visible in the transparent oxygen hose whenever oxygen is flowing to the mask. Oxygen flows for approximately 12 minutes and cannot be shut off. If the passenger oxygen is activated and a PSU oxygen mask compartment does not open, the masks may be dropped manually.

September 29, 2005
737 Flight Crew Operations Manual
Airplane General, Emergency
Equipment, Doors, Windows
Systems Description
Copyright © The Boeing Company. See title page for details

andy_g

to drop the o2 masks its part of our emergency operating procedures incase of tailstrike

Fratton Fred

I thought long and hard about posting this, because i don;t want to get into a "Knock Ryanair" debate (I'm a fan, I think they are a good airline), but they seem to be having a torrid time at the moment.

I was on the 18:30 from Stansted on Friday and we were held up for 20 minutes or so because there was a problem with the right engine, there is a thread on the commuting board about a long delay saturday due to a plane fault, which meant a lot of fans missed the Liverpool v Man U game and there have been tailstrikes and de-compression etc over the last few weeks (Even a another bird strike I believe).

What is going on? is it just a case of their fleet starting to show its age, are they working it too hard or have they just been unlucky?

*Kol*

With a fleet the size of Ryanairs they are bound to have delays due to technical problems. They have a very young fleet of aircraft and some of the delays (tailstrike, birdstrike) are just bad luck.

I would rather have a delay to fix a problem any day than for them to take a chance and release a plane that wasn't 100%.

Tenger

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I thought long and hard about posting this, because i don;t want to get into a "Knock Ryanair" debate (I'm a fan, I think they are a good airline), but they seem to be having a torrid time at the moment.
What is going on? is it just a case of their fleet starting to show its age, are they working it too hard or have they just been unlucky?

I think they just unlucky at the moment and the media are jumping on them. Their aircraft are workd hard but are very young (time wise)

Maurice Lynn

Rumour has it that the reason some of the oqygen masks didnt come down is that they hadnt paid the €5 charge for them :D