National Squad Selection??

FLOYDSTER

Does anyone have the criteria or point me in the direction to get hold of the criteria for prone rifle / 3P Squad selection?;)

It wasn't me!

When there's a major international match on, like a world cup, express an interest to the NTSA and take part in the selection match. Achieve the required score and hey, presto, you're in.

Sounds easier than it is.

FLOYDSTER

It wasn't me! wrote: »

When there's a major international match on, like a world cup, express an interest to the NTSA and take part in the selection match. Achieve the required score and hey, presto, you're in.

Sounds easier than it is.

Yeah!, I did send the NTSA a couple of questions on the web site but havent recieved a response yet!;)
There has gotta be a list of selection match's,QS's or criteria somewhere:), Just wasnt sure if any NTSA members were on here!

IRLConor

FLOYDSTER wrote: »

There has gotta be a list of selection match's,QS's or criteria somewhere:), Just wasnt sure if any NTSA members were on here!

There's only one competition (Intershoot) for which there are standards published at the moment. The details are available in another thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055374874

Now, that match is for air rifle. There are no prone/3P matches that I'm aware of in the near future that the NTSA are planning on sending a team to, so hence there are no selection matches, MQSs or any other criteria.

If it's done like the last time though, there'll be a selection match at which you must score above a given amount. The amount was picked (correct me if I'm wrong) by averaging the score needed to be in the top 2/3s of the qualifying round of the competition for the preceding 3 years. The last selection match in prone that I saw was for the Munich World Cup. The cutoff score was 589 and the top score on the day was 580.

There is no permanent "squad" per se. The shooters selected to go for a match are picked on a match by match basis.

FLOYDSTER

Cheers!!;)

Sparks

I wrote up the actual procedure for the WTSC website (and again as an FAQ) a while ago. The full article is a bit longer going into why it's done this way and giving more details, but this covers the core bits:

So, how does it work? Well, the first steps are all planning on the part of the NTSA. At the start of each year, the NTSA committee sits down and determines what matches it wants to send people to in the upcoming year. (It can add to the list during the year as well). It decides on what matches and how many shooters are going. Once this is done, they can either announce at that point what is coming up in the current year or wait until the official invitation is received. Personally, I think the earlier the better, but sometimes it's not possible (and other times it is). Once that decision has been made, the next step is also the NTSA's - they must set a date for the qualification match and determine the selection score. The selection match must be set far enough ahead of the international match that the shooter has time to confirm holidays and rest up as required; been given one week's notice that you're going to the Olympics would be unconscionable, and it has happened before - and has actually happened this week to three shooters for the Beijing Games, though that's the fault of the National Olympic Committees in China and Russia rather than the shooting governing bodies.

The selection score must also be set, and here the principle of not falling on our asses comes into play. We don't want to wait until a shooter can shoot a 600 (or 400) before sending them abroad, but we also don't want to see an Irish shooter so hopelessly outclassed that they land in last place (landing in last because of unforseeable disasters would be a different matter obviously). Apart from it looking bad, there's the more serious risk that the shooter will wind up feeling somewhat gut-punched by the experience and that's something to be avoided at all costs if possible. So a balance has to be struck, and it must be kept in mind that we're competing well above our weight class at the moment since we have no residential or full-time athletes in shooting in Ireland and most of our shooters started very, very late compared to their competitors who would have started shooting around ages 8 to 10. The current balance is the 66% mark - meaning that the selection score is that which would be required to place the shooter in the top two-thirds of the field in the relevant international match. But since placing is only loosly tied to scores, the 66% score is calculated for the last three years (or whatever interval) and averaged. So, for example, the selection score for the upcoming Intershoot match will be the average of the scores you would have needed to post to finish in the top two-thirds of the field for the last three Intershoot matches. It was hoped when this new selection system was thrashed out, that in years to come, that 66% level could be raised to 50% and maybe then further still.

The thing to remember about the selection score is that it is different for every match. Some matches - the Olympics, the World Championships, the World Cups, the European Championships - will simply always be very high-level, and will always have high selection scores. That's all there is to it really, there's no easy loophole to send a beginner to a World Cup in this system. However, the selection scores for other, smaller matches will be much lower - and these matches are a better introductory route for a new shooter to take anyway. Remember, if you cannot hit the selection score here at home, odds are high that you would do badly abroad and that's a lot more unpleasant.

In some cases, the scores distribution for the international match is wierd. The GB Junior Internationals for example, have normally been won with very high scores in the top few places, but then the scores very rapidly tail off. In those cases, the 66% level is very, very low indeed - to the point where it's ridiculous. In those cases, a selection score will be either the Olympic MQS for seniors or the Junior MQS (which is a few points off the senior MQS - 560 for AR60Jr, 373 for AR40Jr). It's set this way because otherwise, standards would fall off as they have before.

For developmental purposes, shooters used to be sent to international matches that they were really not ready for. The idea was that the first trip was always going to be a shock, so what harm? The problem was that it wasn't the best way. It was akin to dropping someone off the end of a pier into the Irish Sea to teach them to swim. Sure, the ones who made it back to shore might go on to learn properly later, but it leads to a high attrition rate. A better route would be to choose smaller matches and use them as stepping stones. Intershoot was often used for that in the past, but even it is a bit high-end - it's really the gateway between National championships level matches and European championships level matches. Matches like RIAC, the Hell Open and so on, would seem to be a better choice. Also, the club level matches like the British and Welsh Championships and a few other such matches on the continent, should really be used as developmental steps; but there's never been sufficient coaching cooperation between the national and club levels to do that properly. No reason that can't change, mind you.

At any rate, once the team size, the date of the selection match and the selection score have all been set, the NTSA next solicits Expressions of Interest from shooters. The idea is to produce a shortlist of names of people interested in that particular international. It facilitates the following steps, and it also indicates to the NTSA if any further steps should be taken at all (maybe noone wants to go to Milan this year, for example). This would save time, money and manpower, all three of which are very limited resources.

An Expression of Interest, by the way, is not some formal document signed in triplicate. It's tapping someone on the shoulder at a match or in the pub and saying "yeah, I'd like to try out for that match". Or it's an SMS message saying the same thing. Or it's an email or a phone call or a letter or a carrier pigeon. Well. Maybe not the pigeon, but you get the idea - it's just a fancy way of saying that you raise your hand when asked if you're up for it. It's the very opposite of complicated.

By the way, just because the NTSA wait until this point to look for EoIs is not to say that you can't hand one in well in advance. Shooters cannot play passive roles in their own shooting after all - if there's an international match you're interested in, talk to your coach about it. Get a training plan in gear. Tell the NTSA you want to go to that match, even if they've said nothing about it yet.

Anyway, once the EoIs are in (and there's a deadline that gets announced when the NTSA starts looking for them), the Team Coach and the Team Manager get to work. The Manager starts booking flights and hotels on a provisional basis and talking to the match organisers and so forth, while the Coach starts working on training plans with the interested shooters. These set out what training the shooter will do to get up to the level needed for the match, it'll set the goals for the match itself, it'll cover the matches used for training and the goals for those, it'll cover strengths and weaknesses and training exercises and training times and so on and so forth. Now most people don't know how to write up a training plan. Thing is, there is no one format for them. What's right for some is wrong for others. The key here is to work with the Coach. Talk to them. Work with them. You are not expected to be a paperwork whizz. That'd be silly. What you are expected to do is to train in a structured, directed fashion. Not just turn up on your home range every other week and plink. And you have to have a training plan. Not just for some set of rules here, but because it's a vital and necessary part of preperation for the match itself. Your competitors will have structured training and physiotherapists and biomechanics and gym work and technical training and constant coaching and assessment and analysis and more - you have no hope at all of matching their performance if you don't train in a structured, focussed fashion. It just won't happen.

So, for the next few weeks or months, you train. The Team Coach stays in contact with you and helps as you do this. You both assess your progress, correct any problems, and keep on working. Meanwhile the Team Manager is continuing with preperations for the trip and the NTSA, well, they actually have nothing to do in this phase. Then the selection match rolls around. Now this may be a normal Open match and your scores are used for selection from it; or it may be a match held specially for the purpose of selection. Either way, this is it. You shoot , and hopefully you exceed the selection score. Does this mean you're going? Well, maybe - the thing is, if there are, say, three places, they go to the top three scores over the selection score. So if selection is 580 and you shot 582, but three others shot 585, well, you're not going. But if you're the top score, well, congratulations, that seat is now yours, free and clear. Now you go into the terminal preperation phase for the match - whether that be final tuning or just resting up before the trip.

FLOYDSTER

Thanks Mark!, roll on 09 and the criteria;)

Sparks

Well, if you want the criteria for prone/3P, you can figure them out yourself easily. Pick your match, get the results for it from the past three times it's been run, then for each of those times figure out what score you had to shoot to place in the top 66% of the field (not counting DNS/DNF entries), and get the average of those three, rounding to the nearest integer, and that's the score it'd be.

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

Well, if you want the criteria for prone/3P, you can figure them out yourself easily. Pick your match, get the results for it from the past three times it's been run, then for each of those times figure out what score you had to shoot to place in the top 66% of the field (not counting DNS/DNF entries), and get the average of those three, rounding to the nearest integer, and that's the score it'd be.

Yep, and realistically you need to be looking at 585+ for many of the competitions.

Why wait for '09? There's a competition on this Sunday in DRC!

FLOYDSTER

IRLConor wrote: »

Why wait for '09? There's a competition on this Sunday in DRC!

Is that the one near Blessington?

IRLConor

FLOYDSTER wrote: »

Is that the one near Blessington?

Nearer Brittas, but yes. Here's a map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcdermottroe.com%2Fshooting%2Fclubs%2Flocations%2FDublin%2520Rifle%2520Club.kml%3FlastModified%3D1200753060&t=h&z=14

FLOYDSTER

IRLConor wrote: »

Nearer Brittas, but yes. Here's a map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcdermottroe.com%2Fshooting%2Fclubs%2Flocations%2FDublin%2520Rifle%2520Club.kml%3FlastModified%3D1200753060&t=h&z=14

Thanks for that!, its helpful!!;)
I have something else on but am gonna try and get to this!!

IRLConor

FLOYDSTER wrote: »

Thanks for that!, its helpful!!;)
I have something else on but am gonna try and get to this!!

Great, well maybe I'll see you there.

It wasn't me!

The more the merrier.

IRLConor

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The more the merrier.

Indeed, and I'm sure that goes for anyone who'd like to have a look at a match, the kit or just drop by for a chat.

DRC is a very welcoming club so I don't think they'd mind me extending their welcome to other shooters. :-)

D.R.C.

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The more the merrier.

IRLConor wrote: »

Indeed, and I'm sure that goes for anyone who'd like to have a look at a match, the kit or just drop by for a chat.

DRC is a very welcoming club so I don't think they'd mind me extending their welcome to other shooters. :-)

Absolutely agree with both these comments guys. People would also be welcome on non competition days, things may be a little less formal than on competition days.

Dublin Rifle Club.

IRLConor

D.R.C. wrote: »

Absolutely agree with both these comments guys. People would also be welcome on non competition days, things may be a little less formal than on competition days.

Formal? Does that mean I have to wear a suit on Sunday?

D.R.C.

IRLConor wrote: »

Formal? Does that mean I have to wear a suit on Sunday?

Hi Conor,

By less formal I mean visitors may feel it easier to approach shooters to chat about equipment etc. and there would be more of an opportunity for them to try out the equipment.

DRC.

FLOYDSTER

:DWho's making the sarnies???

It wasn't me!

You should have come down for the barbecue the last day.