Getting instruments to sound smaller in a mix

Valcin

Hows it going there folks, i have a question for ye producers if ye could spare a moment. I know this might sound like a simple question but im wondering how do i get instruments to sound smaller in a mix. I record at home and say for example i am recording my fender p bass, thru my fmr preamp in to my apogee duet in to logic. The bass sounds huge in the mix and takes up loads of room. I would like it to sound smaller. I know obviously about equalisation and reverb but it never seems to work out too right for me and i found micing the bass would make it smaller. I know the obvious answer is compression but i find compression turns everything to mud, although i do use it on drums and the overall mix to give it more spark. Is it just a case that i need to learn compression better and should i be able to achieve this with the software compressors or do you need the outboard stuff to let instruments have more space. I was wondering is their something else i dont now about that is normally done. i would really like all the instruments to have their own space, are eq and reverb/delay the only tricks for this?
Cheers

i57dwun4yb1pt8

im no expert - but we usually want things to sound bigger !

maybe you mean is to loud but not punchy ?

how are you monitoring - speakers / headphones ?
is your room treated accoustically ?

what else is in the mix ? drums , guitars ?

I record bass ( fender jazz passive , and an OLP stingray active )
using the FMR really nice preamp , into the REALLY NICE compressor .

i set the comp to even out the sound as im not the most consistent player .
usually 2:1 - 4db threshold , 20 ms attack and 500 release .

the record level is around -10 DBFS which i do for all signals in my chain .

i dont eq that much , just a high pass at round 30 hz to keep it cleaner
and i aim to get the tone on the guitar as good as possible

i also compress it further with a powercore compressor to punch it up a bit.


but id say look at your monitoring / room first

PaulBrewer

Valcin wrote: »

Hows it going there folks, i have a question for ye producers if ye could spare a moment. I know this might sound like a simple question but im wondering how do i get instruments to sound smaller in a mix. I record at home and say for example i am recording my fender p bass, thru my fmr preamp in to my apogee duet in to logic. The bass sounds huge in the mix and takes up loads of room. I would like it to sound smaller. I know obviously about equalisation and reverb but it never seems to work out too right for me and i found micing the bass would make it smaller. I know the obvious answer is compression but i find compression turns everything to mud, although i do use it on drums and the overall mix to give it more spark. Is it just a case that i need to learn compression better and should i be able to achieve this with the software compressors or do you need the outboard stuff to let instruments have more space. I was wondering is their something else i dont now about that is normally done. i would really like all the instruments to have their own space, are eq and reverb/delay the only tricks for this?
Cheers

Good question!

I always try to get the noise I'm after while I'm recording.

If I'm in doubt, especially on bass, record it with it's tone up full or in the case of an active bass, flat - no bass, mid or treble boost. Balance the pickups to taste. Similarly with the preamp, if you're unsure what you need, record flat.

The ole turn the bass up full on the guitar is a common enough mistake.
What sounds thunderous and powerful with just bass and drums can turn into a wooly mess when all the rest of the tracks are included if a load of active bass is added.

Compression is vital in my experience.
If in doubt how to set one up try and find a bass guitar preset. Vary the threshold til you're gain reduction is peaking at , say, - 6dB . see how that goes. That's just a suggestion it can be a couple of dB it can also be 20!

Lastly, if it's all just too 'bassy' all the time put in a high pass filter and slide it up from 60, to 80, to 100 or even to 120Hz, till you feel your bass end is right.

With your Duet you have a cool box that can record and reproduce bass well, unlike some systems.

The other culprit in the woolly bass problem can be your monitoring/room so even though thats what you're hearing that's not what's being recorded.
Are your monitors either in corners or up against walls? Both a huge no-no as a rule.

.... Lastly, another very effective tool for getting things smaller in the mix ............... turn it down

tweeky

less bass, less reverb, less volume.

FlipperThePriest

You might need to read up on some EQ and compression. Bass can get boomy at around 125Hz so if you reduce the gain at 125Hz you might reduce this.

Check out this chart and try it out; the more you experiment, the more you'll learn.

if you're listening through monitors, you might notice that some one note in particular is boomy - this could be the standing wave (caused by the reflection of the frequency adding to itself due to size of that room), harsh surfaces and bad monitor positioning would encourage this, bass traps would help improve. same applies when recording bass through mic

iquinn

DaDumTish wrote: »

how are you monitoring - speakers / headphones ?
is your room treated accoustically ?

good point, your problem may just be an inaccurate listening environment...?

Valcin

Cheers for the replies,

Yeah, unfortunately my monitors have broken down so i am mixing at the moment with some sennheiser headphones(good ones, i think!). I dont know if that is a "no-no" in the production world. I dont have my room treated either and thats why ive been recording bass by D.I. I record guitar with a mic but that usually sounds grand and i use hardware synths and software for everything else.

I constantly compare my mixes to more professional ones while im mixing and obviously its not going to sound as good but i do find that with my mixes on my headphones the instruments take up a lot of space in the mix while in more pro mixes there seems to be space between each instrument in the mix, if that makes sense.

Thanks for the info, ill try out some of the settings ye suggested with eq and compression on the bass cause id like to get that especially clearer and not taking up so much space.

Last Angry Man

Valcin wrote: »

Cheers for the replies,

Yeah, unfortunately my monitors have broken down so i am mixing at the moment with some sennheiser headphones(good ones, i think!). I dont know if that is a "no-no" in the production world. I dont have my room treated either and thats why ive been recording bass by D.I. I record guitar with a mic but that usually sounds grand and i use hardware synths and software for everything else.

I constantly compare my mixes to more professional ones while im mixing and obviously its not going to sound as good but i do find that with my mixes on my headphones the instruments take up a lot of space in the mix while in more pro mixes there seems to be space between each instrument in the mix, if that makes sense.

Thanks for the info, ill try out some of the settings ye suggested with eq and compression on the bass cause id like to get that especially clearer and not taking up so much space.

I'm no expert so feel free to disagree anyone but I read a great artical in SOS that explained hoy to use reverbs and delays to give you space in a mix.

In short it said to set up a short reverb, a long reverb, a short delay and a tempo delay (I also add a slapback for vox). I set them all up as send effects then route my group channels through them. Basically the short reverb and delay bring sounds forward in the mix so they sound "up front". Great for Vox and I find it handy for drums too. The longer delay and reverb are great for pushing sounds back in the mix.

I use this along with some good mics and a nice pre and I am getting really good quality without much eq-ing and only minimal compression (this suits my style so will vary for others I expect).

Anyway that piece of information was a revelation for me. Basically the reverbs and delays gule everything together. The theory is that in a live environment you hear everything together in the same space and this sound is lost when you record individual instruments seperately and at close quarters.

All I can say is that it works for me and it;s real easy to do once you find your feet with it. You can also eq the delays and reverbs if you want to subtly brighten or soften the mix.....

I could go on and on!

trackmixstudio

Watch out for low mids (200-500Hz)
These frequencies will eat your mix.
For bass guitar especially try cutting a lot of this frequency then boost narrow band under it at 100Hz and high pass at 60Hz.
Another trick is to use a multi band compressor and only use a band from 200-500Hz and compress heavily with fast attack and medium release.
These 2 things should clear your mix up a lot.

Another tip is to put an analyzer on the master then solo each track to see what frequencies are loudest then make sure no other instruments are competing in this range (using eq cuts). Start from the bottom (kick drum) then work up through the frequencies through bass, guitars etc to cymbals.
If you do this enough you will get the know the fundamental (loudest frequency) of each instrument then won't need the analyzer any more.

Also if you boost a frequency on something, if you cut at double that frequency, most of the time it will sound better/clearer due to the overtones at the frequency you boosted being reduced.
A great book is "the mix engineer's handbook"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mixing-Engineers-Handbook-Mix-Audio/dp/0872887235/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221233227&sr=8-1

FlipperThePriest

trackmixstudio wrote: »

A great book is "the mix engineer's handbook"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mixing-Engineers-Handbook-Mix-Audio/dp/0872887235/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221233227&sr=8-1

Yeah I found it really helpful! I also found..."The Art of Mixing" a good help! Gives great visual ideas on what should be going on in mixes.

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Mixing-Mix-Pro-Audio/dp/0918371171