On running matches...

Sparks

Reading over the upcoming competitions announcements raises an interesting contrast.
The upcoming IPSA level II match had a fixed number of slots, a very high entry fee, and a registration deadline.
The upcoming ISSF match in DRC has no fixed number of slots, a low entry fee, and no registration deadline.

Given the success IPSA have had in filling all 60 slots in 5 days or so (DRC, if it goes the way it's gone every year in the past decade, won't get past half the number of entries that IPSA will have in their match), and given that the way they've run their level II registration is the same way that international ISSF event registration is run, I wonder if the ISSF club shoots should change the way they do things? I know for years we've been complaining that we never know who's turning up to a match until the day, and in WTSC that's caused all manner of hassle when you have six firing points - folks could show up unannounced to find a full firing line of pre-booked people and gone away disappointed. It also introduces difficulties with prizes and with arranging rotas for the Range Officers, and with a host of other admin-level stuff.

What if we changed how we do ISSF club shoots so that you had to book ahead of time, and either turned away unregistered people on the day (wow, I can see that going down well ) or charged them double the standard fee as a penalty clause?

Thoughts? How would the shooters react?

bigred

I dunno Sparks. I'd hazard a guess and say there's a lot more IPSA shooters out there than there is ISSF shooters and hence demand is high. The entry costs to these events would logically be higher given all the stuff that will get torn to shreds on the day and all the administration involved with all those pistols, ammo and people milling around. And lets face it, IPSA is a wholly more spectator friendly sport given the movement and action. As for ISSF, watching a bod stand stock-still for nearly two hours is hardly blockbuster stuff (although I dont mind doing it myself ).

Sandy22

Mark,

I think you're substantially missing the point here. I think the contrast is due to significantly different levels of demand for the two types of shooting. Maybe you should be thinking about why that might be the case; in my opinion there's at least one fairly obvious reason, and it isn't the way the shoots are squadded or priced.


Sandy.

Sparks

I wasn't really thinking of the spectator end of things to be honest bigred (though I'll confess that I find finals about as stressful as football when it's a close match going in); I'm more thinking of the organising club being able to sort out how many details they'll be having, how many ROs they'll need, how many prizes in what categories they'll have to have, what numbers will be like for catering, what numbers will be like for transport if needed (like if DURC is coming to WTSC for example), and getting the computers set up with people's names/clubs/classification details and so on, printing off target numbers, counting out sets of targets, and so on.

Sparks

Sandy22 wrote: »

Mark,
I think you're substantially missing the point here. I think the contrast is due to significantly different levels of demand for the two types of shooting. Maybe you should be thinking about why that might be the case; in my opinion there's at least one fairly obvious reason, and it isn't the way the shoots are squadded or priced.

The "obvious stuff" usually isn't obvious in my experience - I'm guessing you're thinking of the reactive nature of the targets and that whole spectator appeal side of things?

I'm still not convinced that there is some reason that a single IPSA shooter should find it easier to get his or her detail pre-booked than a single NTSA shooter should. Hell, we have people who are both NTSA and IPSA. Why should it be easier to book in on one match and not on another?

bigred

Sparks wrote: »

The "obvious stuff" usually isn't obvious in my experience - I'm guessing you're thinking of the reactive nature of the targets and that whole spectator appeal side of things?

I'm still not convinced that there is some reason that a single IPSA shooter should find it easier to get his or her detail pre-booked than a single NTSA shooter should. Hell, we have people who are both NTSA and IPSA. Why should it be easier to book in on one match and not on another?

Agree 100%. I'm an ISSF shooter, and have to say the organisation of events can be pretty terrible at times. As an example, the pistol nationals this year were a case in point - the range opened late, the firing points weren't ready and we were probably 40min late starting. I'm convinced that effected scores on the day (not just mine). Maybe because ISSF is so small, there's almost a 'family' feel about it where there's the 'ah sure it'll be grand' approach. We need to be much more professional if we ever hope to compete effectively internationally. I'd happily pay an extra tenner if I knew everything would be ready and on time when I turned up to shoot.

Sparks

That's pretty much how I'm thinking red. The WTSC Open is coming up in 5 weeks, and I'm pondering how it would go if we decided that we'd have a set number of slots and a soft and a hard deadline for taking entries and turned away anyone who hadn't booked in by the hard deadline (and a higher entry fee for those who missed the soft deadline).

I'm not out to generate €3k in entry fees (though the question of whether or not the €1k of prizes really does interest folks is a good one).

I'd just like to know who's coming on the day so we can have the stats office set up, ROs who know when they're on duty, and some sort of transport arranged to shuttle the college shooters from Navan to WTSC and back again, and so on.

bigred

Sparks wrote: »

The WTSC Open is coming up in 5 weeks

5 weeks?!?!?!
I better get training!
Agreed, it would be good to see. It'll take a while to bed in I'm sure. There's so many that are used to the 'good' old ways. We need to encourage the students. If we could even present medals on the day, then it would be a good incentive. I know it's not a huge gesture, but there's the honour to think about! I was delighted when I got my only prize this year - a vase from UCD 3 weeks after the event. I'm still waiting for my 2007/2008 WTSC medals ;)

Sparks

bigred wrote: »

5 weeks?!?!?!
I better get training!

Yes!

I'm still waiting for my 2007/2008 WTSC medals ;)

Actually, that was deliberate - we've been doing the medals night as a social night for a few years now; you get your cert on the day and bring herself along for a dinner on medals night and get awarded the medal in front of everyone.
I wonder if folks think that that works better than giving them out on the day?

les45

bigred wrote: »

I dunno Sparks. I'd hazard a guess and say there's a lot more IPSA shooters out there than there is ISSF shooters and hence demand is high. The entry costs to these events would logically be higher given all the stuff that will get torn to shreds on the day and all the administration involved with all those pistols, ammo and people milling around. And lets face it, IPSA is a wholly more spectator friendly sport given the movement and action. As for ISSF, watching a bod stand stock-still for nearly two hours is hardly blockbuster stuff (although I dont mind doing it myself ).

The system we use for on line registration is very straightforward, and we can pass on the information for inclusion in the WTSC website if that would make life easier for the club members running the ISSF matches . We use a central database for match registration /squadding etc . Our match fee for the Euro Shoots should generate a surplus of funds which we will ring fence for our Euro Team Squads and their training for Serbia. As for wear and tear
we dont have alot of wear and tear on target stands or screens , apart from the paper targets , we reuse the kit ,match after match.
Many of our clubs have now their own screens , target stands , pepper poppers, and the days of the blue tranist van travelling the length and breath of the Island will thankfully be a thing of the past . We are more than happy to assist any association, at the end of the day despite what some people think we all enjoy the challange of target shooting .

IPSA.

Sparks

The mechanics of how we take registrations isn't much of a problem to be honest les (though thanks for the offer), there are lots of bits for joomla out there ready-made for such, in fact RRPC has been using some on the rathdrum website (though I have plans involving paypal...).

What I'm interested in is the different mentality behind the two kinds of events - what's the difference in mindset between the two that lets IPSA get all its shooters to sign in ahead of time, while NTSA shoots often sees shooters turning up on the day without any prior notice.

IRLConor

A few points on this topic:

• All the matches on RRPC's electronic targets have had mandatory pre-registration. This hasn't caused much trouble as far as I know.
• Anyone turning up to a match without telling people they're coming and then expecting to get the detail they want (or any detail at all) needs their head (or ego) examined.
• It would be nice to know numbers ahead of time so that you could plan for prizes/range officers/extra details/whatever properly but for most matches you'll have a rough idea. If you don't, then odds are that you're going to balls up everything else so badly that registration won't make the slightest bit of difference.
• More professional running of matches would be nice, but the number of personnel available and the facilities being used often make even the most organised club look bad when they're running a match.
• The IPSA level II match getting 60 shooters in short order is probably analogous to an ISSF match getting 10 shooters in short order. If there were only 10 spots in an ISSF match and pre-booking was available, never mind mandatory, then I'd say you'd see that match booked out quickly.

I don't really see either option as better. If a club wants to go ahead and make pre-registration mandatory (like RRPC do) then that's fine, but I don't see any compelling reason to make the change across the board. Different venues have different needs and so on.

Sparks

Well, I think we might try the pre-registration route for the WTSC Open this year and see if it works. And if it doesn't, well, that's data too

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

though I have plans involving paypal...

Please god no! Apart from their horrendous "customer service" it doesn't handle people with no credit card (like the student clubs) and it's complexity that is utterly unnecessary. The people competing will be there on the day and can hand you the cash. It works, don't break it.

The only advantage is that the match organisers get the money ahead of time but if the match costs so much that you need cash up front, then I humbly suggest that you're doing it wrong.

Sparks wrote: »

What I'm interested in is the different mentality behind the two kinds of events - what's the difference in mindset between the two that lets IPSA get all its shooters to sign in ahead of time, while NTSA shoots often sees shooters turning up on the day without any prior notice.

Simple, if the IPSA shooters don't sign up, they don't get to shoot 'cos the range is full. If the ISSF shooters don't sign up and just roll up on the day there's a pretty good chance that they'll get to shoot.

In the years I've been shooting there have been very few situations where an unannounced arrival couldn't be accommodated.

Sparks

IRLConor wrote: »

Please god no! Apart from their horrendous "customer service"

Heard rumblings about this but never encountered it - though it's one of those things you wouldn't until too late I suppose...

it doesn't handle people with no credit card (like the student clubs) and it's complexity that is utterly unnecessary. The people competing will be there on the day and can hand you the cash. It works, don't break it.

I hate good engineering reasons that say my idea's bad Okay. No paypal. Mind you, that just adds about twice as many solutions to the pool to choose from...

Simple, if the IPSA shooters don't sign up, they don't get to shoot 'cos the range is full. If the ISSF shooters don't sign up and just roll up on the day there's a pretty good chance that they'll get to shoot.
In the years I've been shooting there have been very few situations where an unannounced arrival couldn't be accommodated.

Yeah, but it buggers up trying to organise stuff. Like if we set up to ferry five folks to/from Navan for a detail and we turn up at the bus stop and there's eight people, then it's just a pain in the butt. Or if we've done target sets for 18 people and 20 show up, that's just another chunk of hassle for the stats office at exactly the wrong time. And if we've budgeted prizes to fit within the entry fees for twenty people and twenty-four turned up, well, that's €60 or so that could have gone to get slightly better prizes. And so on.

Kryten

I can only really speak for pistol, so lets call a spade a shovel. I reckon about 90% of pistol shooters out there are into centerfire. Talking about active shooters of course. Some may have a .22, and even then a sporter, not a target pistol. Out of this 90% of centerfire pistol shooters, I say a good 75% are into IPSA.

As a result, if there is an IPSA match, the demand is so high that the organisers can set the fee at whatever they want, and people will pay it. The demand is so high that the slots have to be pre booked.

I would personally love to see this level of enthusiasm in ISSF pistol. Maybe if ISSF Rapid fire pistol ever gets started, it will be more spectator friendly. Maybe more people will get in to it.????

Sparks

Maybe more people will get in to it?

Doubtful Kryten, the US has the opposite situation - IPSC shooter there just don't even try ISSF Rapid Fire. Scott Pilkington ran an pesudo-ISSF rapid fire event for years at the Bianchi cups using a repeating air pistol with a 1911 grip so it would match the IPSC setup, and USAS had tryouts for the ISSF rapid-fire team and the top IPSC folks showed potential and could have made the squad with some training. There was just no interest in going onto ISSF rapid-fire because over there IPSC is a professional sport with lots of sponsorship and ISSF isn't.

Thing is though, the relative popularity isn't what I was pondering either. It's hard to articulate it because it's rather fundamental, but what I was trying to figure out was why noone even complains at the demands of preregistration for IPSA while it's hard to get NTSA shooters to sign up ahead of time. Is it just habit, which is utterly changable? Or is there something deeper at work?

les45

Kryten wrote: »

I would personally love to see this level of enthusiasm in ISSF pistol. Maybe if ISSF Rapid fire pistol ever gets started, it will be more spectator friendly. Maybe more people will get in to it.????

The enthusiasm for IPSC shooting is driven by our members , they want to shoot , they want to compete and they want to represent their country ,and it is our job to make sure this happens . The IPSA membership check our website day in day out , we update our website day in day out and they vote with their feet , at the moment we have a full match and a large number of entries in reserve . This is not about which is the better sport ISSF/IPSC but simply the attitudes that exists , IPSC shooters expect to preregister for their matches .
John

packas

Just wondering how big an effect does equipment play in the popularity. For example in IPSC shooting you can use a Glock 17, CZ 75, Sig 226 etc. at top international matches & be competitive. Prices range from 700 euro to 1500. With ISSF what's the situation regarding equipment to make you competitive? I've been to a few ranges & most of the pistols used are the bog standard service pistols (liek above). When people hear then that they can be competitive with them at IPSC they naturally want to give it a go. To be honest my only exposure to ISSF shooting equipment is watching it on TV and the equipment looks very exotic. would you think is that putting people off the sport ??

Sparks

For ISSF you're looking at between 250 for an entry-level 10m air pistol up to 2500 for a top-of-the-line .22 pistol. It might be exotic-looking, but the designs are driven by the requirements of the sport and the kit is generally purpose-built. No rule against using suitable non-ISSF firearms for ISSF matches so long as they meet the calibre, weight and dimension regulations, it's just that they're generally not competitive.

IRLConor

les45 wrote: »

they want to compete and they want to represent their country

I suspect that this one of the core reasons for the lack of raw enthusiasm in ISSF shooting.

The progression for us is:

1. National Competitions (Open shoots & the overall nationals)
2. International Competitions (Major shoots like Bisley, Intershoot and the like)
3. World Cups & European Championships
4. Olympics

The curve is very steep and the steps to success are much less clear than they seem to be for IPSA shooters. Shooting competitively at step 1 above is not massively difficult if you have some talent and make an effort. The problem comes when you get to the point at which you go outside of Ireland. You could easily be the national champion here and struggle at a major international match. This means that to "shoot for your country" you have a massive hill to climb and that puts a hell of a lot of people off.

I have no silver bullet for this problem, but there are a few things we can do to fix it:

• We need real coaching on a regular basis. At the moment there is no formal coaching in prone rifle (I say prone rifle since 3P seems to be non-existent). I know WTSC have made great strides in getting coaches for air rifle. As for pistol, I haven't heard of anyone doing any coaching. There are plenty of people with tidbits of excellent information but there are precious few who know how to coach and there's only so much you can do on your own.
• We need a clearer path to success. Organising selection matches to go to a world cup isn't massively helpful when the top score is 9 points short of the cut-off point. The cut-off point was fair and reasonable, but few if anyone I met that day thought it would be met. There's a gap between good national-level shooting and entry level international shooting that needs to be plugged somehow.
• We need better ranges. I know it's a constant bugbear for a lot of people, and given the state of DURC's range I'm hardly one to point fingers, but what we have doesn't really cut it. Unfortunately this is something that needs money, land and possibly planning permission, none of which are easy to sort out.

So in short, one of the main differences I can see between IPSA and ISSF shooting is that the path to major league success is more clear. It's very hard, but it's doable and the path to it is clearly described.

packas

Sparks wrote: »

For ISSF you're looking at between 250 for an entry-level 10m air pistol up to 2500 for a top-of-the-line .22 pistol. It might be exotic-looking, but the designs are driven by the requirements of the sport and the kit is generally purpose-built. No rule against using suitable non-ISSF firearms for ISSF matches so long as they meet the calibre, weight and dimension regulations, it's just that they're generally not competitive.

Prices are comparable to IPSC for production division (although standard division or Open division gun could set you back up to 5k). But I think the main point is that the equipment is specialised. Whereas IPSC production division was specifically set up for service pistols straight off the manufacturers prodcution line. It makes the sport very friendly & unintimidating to new shooters. You can buy a Glock 17 & if you're good enough that's enough gun to become world champion in Production division. I've been shooting pistols since the re-introduction a few years ago & I've never had the chance to hold or shoot an ISSF specific gun (If I had who knows I may enjoy it. The point I'm making though it's not readily accessible) Last year at MNSCI I was there when there was a competition that used ISSF rules (could be wrong but it looked that way to me. Plus I saw an ISSF rule book being referred to). All shooters there were using 9mm,45ACP & 40S&W instead of ISSF specific guns. There was a few 22lr pistols too. I think if you're going to shoot a discipline with a gun not suited for the discipline you'll soon get fed up & bring your "baby" to a discipline where you and your gun can be competitive.

How about holding some open days where people can come along & look & have a feel for the sport.
IPSA has gone around to a few clubs & put on demonstrations & talks about the sport. You gotta make people aware of what it's all about & if the sport is interesting enough then it will eventually catch on without all the P.R. stuff!!

bigred

packas wrote: »

How about holding some open days where people can come along & look & have a feel for the sport.
IPSA has gone around to a few clubs & put on demonstrations & talks about the sport. You gotta make people aware of what it's all about & if the sport is interesting enough then it will eventually catch on without all the P.R. stuff!!

Not a bad idea at all. Hey Sparks - we could do something like that - right??
I'm sure we wouldnt be thrown out of the ISSF just for talking to the IPSA people and showing each other our equipment (guns that is ) Did Sparks mention that one of the ISSF ranges here has a real pub and gun dealers attached to it??? Now there's a selling point we don't advertise enough!

packas

bigred wrote: »

Not a bad idea at all. Hey Sparks - we could do something like that - right??
I'm sure we wouldnt be thrown out of the ISSF just for talking to the IPSA people and showing each other our equipment (guns that is ) Did Sparks mention that one of the ISSF ranges here has a real pub and gun dealers attached to it??? Now there's a selling point we don't advertise enough!

To be honest I'd love to give ISSF pistol shooting a go (with proper competitive ISSF style guns though)

Sparks

IRLConor wrote: »

We need real coaching on a regular basis.

Well, Geoff and Matt are working on the coach's course. It's got to be done in the next two months. Hopefully that'll give us a lot more coaches on the ground. What we can't go back to was the shipping of a world-class coach in from outside - at least not with where we are in terms of shooters. That way only led to frustrated high-level shooters who didn't get enough coaching time, frustrated mid-level shooters who didn't see any structured programme to the coaching, frustrated entry-level shooters who didn't have any coaching at all and didn't know how to get good enough to go to national squad training because they hadn't a club coach, and a frustrated national coach who knew all these things and knew he couldn't fix them.

As for pistol, I haven't heard of anyone doing any coaching.

The MPI have been getting in an english mid-level coach (who's pretty good, I spent twenty minutes with him and he changed my pistol shooting quite a bit and my form improved enormously) to do some coaching for them in air pistol, but apart from that I've not heard of anything.

We need a clearer path to success. Organising selection matches to go to a world cup isn't massively helpful when the top score is 9 points short of the cut-off point. The cut-off point was fair and reasonable, but few if anyone I met that day thought it would be met. There's a gap between good national-level shooting and entry level international shooting that needs to be plugged somehow.

Amen to that. The problem is, that's just what it takes for the world cups, they are that hard. But Intershoot is achievable - 577 for senior men in air rifle, 550 for senior men in air pistol, 385/378 for senior/junior women's air rifle : these are acheivable scores for our shooters right now. And yes, Intershoot is air only, but the point wasn't intershoot itself - it was that we shouldn't be even bothering to look at world cups right now, we're not good enough. We need to find a match at Intershoot's level, but for smallbore. (everyone's complaining that we need to lessen standards, that the 66% level needs to come down or we need to ease off a bit - truth is, that's crap. That 66% level has to come up in the next few years. We just need to aim for competitions that are achievable and stop fooling ourselves here. We have had maybe two new shooters in the last few years who were international standard (Liam and Susan, both air rifle) and we have maybe a small handful of others who've been around longer and who still have the skill level needed to compete internationally, but that's it. So we need to aim lower for a while, hit the British championships, the matches like the Hell Open, RIAC, Intershoot and their smallbore equivalents, build up a squad again and get them seasoned (and immediately start building the wave behind them as well).
But then, most anyone can see that - the question of "how" is somewhat more opaque

We need better ranges.

Yup. No argument. Preaching to the choir there

packas wrote: »

Whereas IPSC production division was specifically set up for service pistols straight off the manufacturers prodcution line. It makes the sport very friendly & unintimidating to new shooters. You can buy a Glock 17 & if you're good enough that's enough gun to become world champion in Production division.

In fairness though, that's assuming that the shooter is used to firearms! We have no real problem getting parents to put their kids into air rifle or air pistol shooting because the stuff we use looks purpose-built and esoteric. If they saw a Glock 17 on the range, we'd never see them again - and that's pretty much our entire demographic. The folks who want to shoot fullbore pistols like the Glock don't want to shoot ISSF stuff before day one anyway.

I've been shooting pistols since the re-introduction a few years ago & I've never had the chance to hold or shoot an ISSF specific gun (If I had who knows I may enjoy it. The point I'm making though it's not readily accessible)

Actually, if you've shot a Glock, you've shot an ISSF-acceptable pistol (just not for the olympic disciplines). If you've shot a buckmark or a ruger 22, you've shot an ISSF-acceptable pistol for the olympic smallbore disciplines.
That's how most of the folks in the ISSF smallbore pistol shooting in Rathdrum have started off, and then later they bought purpose-built kit.

How about holding some open days where people can come along & look & have a feel for the sport.

Actually, that's pretty much every day. Rathdrum takes in non-ISSF pistol shooters at club matches all the time, (rrpc could tell you more), and WTSC takes in anyone who wants into a beginners course (granted, those are new, but anyone who was interested was always welcome). Oddly, we're getting more interest from other areas (Archery, Pony Club, Modern Pentathlon) than from the fullbore side of things - always been that way too.

bigred wrote: »

I'm sure we wouldnt be thrown out of the ISSF just for talking to the IPSA people and showing each other our equipment (guns that is )

Course not. The ickyness doesn't start until you hit NGB level. Individual shooters can do as they wish (and do - I can think of at least one NTSA shooter who's also an IPSA shooter).

Did Sparks mention that one of the ISSF ranges here has a real pub and gun dealers attached to it??? Now there's a selling point we don't advertise enough!

Well, yes, except that you have to get the order right. The pub comes after the shooting

packas wrote: »

To be honest I'd love to give ISSF pistol shooting a go (with proper competitive ISSF style guns though)

RRPC, that's your cue
(Or you could come out to WTSC and try air pistol packas)

rrpc

Sorry, haven't been around for a while - been very busy and had to contend witth a nasty respiratory infection as well. I blame the weather :mad:

As regards shooting ISSF pistol in Rathdrum, anyone's welcome to come along to any match we're having. If you don't have the appropriate equipment we have very nice people who are always ready to lend theirs as well as the club equipment. Check the calendar on the website and for announcements here if you're interested.

We do get a number of IPSC shooters taking part and they are quite competitive, indeed some are *very* competitive indeed, so don't let that stop you.

As regards the pre-booking element, we've been doing it since we introduced the electronic targets and it works very well except for one club I won't mention, who just turn up and expect to be accomodated. Having said that they usually are.

I'm tearing out the door again right now, but when I get a chance I'll come back to this thread and answer any questions.

les45

Mark.
I assume the WTSC range is only open on specific evenings , weekends !

John

Sparks

Yeah, just the ones that end in a 'Y'
Seriously, we've got monday nights taken up with squad training, tuesday and wednesday are taken up with beginners courses, but the rest are all open.

les45

With the way I shoot , Tuesday sounds like the ideal evening .

john