Self taught jazz

buck65

Got a jazz guitar book yesterday from Amazon - Jazz Guitar for absolute beginners by Amanda Monaco.
I learned some guitar waaaay back and got a present of a lovely guitar from my wife so I have mastered the basics again recently (chords , a bit of finger plucking , basic riffs) .
Wondering if anyone else has ever had a crack at self teaching a new instrument
experiences, recommendations anything or does anyone play jazz guitar?
Would love advice

Rigsby

buck65 wrote: »

Got a jazz guitar book yesterday from Amazon - Jazz Guitar for absolute beginners by Amanda Monaco.
I learned some guitar waaaay back and got a present of a lovely guitar from my wife so I have mastered the basics again recently (chords , a bit of finger plucking , basic riffs) .
Wondering if anyone else has ever had a crack at self teaching a new instrument
experiences, recommendations anything or does anyone play jazz guitar?
Would love advice

I'd say this is more suitable to the "Playing,Technique and Theory" forum.

Desmo

Rigsby wrote: »

I'd say this is more suitable to the "Playing,Technique and Theory" forum.

There is actually a fair crowd of jazz guitarists who post and read this board; the playing and techniques board is a mixed bag and you can be lucky but he might as well start here?

I started jazz guitar as a middle aged man 5 years ago from scratch and it is effing hard. If you have good ears and/or know any theory then the classical way to learn is to copy from/play along with records and play with other jazz musicians until they stop shouting at you. To do that you need to learn tunes (the chords and melodies of whatever tunes they want to play). In my case, I needed lessons. I was getting nowhere until I started lessons. Now I have gone from being utterly useless (no chops, no ears, no timing, no hope) to being merely not very good but I am getting there :-).

Setun

Rigsby wrote: »

I'd say this is more suitable to the "Playing,Technique and Theory" forum.

Nah they're all metallers over there Just joking, I'll leave it up here though seeing as though it's specifically about jazz performance and technique.

I started playing alto saxophone and had some generic 'play the sheet music' lessons but never any jazz. It was a great way to get to know my way around the instrument but all my jazz technique is self-taught. One thing you have to concentrate hard on, especially with horns, is having a good tone - once you've got that you can play anything and get away with it :cool: I also found the best way to learn how to improvise is to listen to a lot of jazz actively ie. ask yourself what the solist is reacting to/how the rhythm section are playing/melodic tricks. Many players have little riffs they use regularly - listen to Bird, he had a bag of really great ones that he'd slip into any tune in any key at any tempo.

I think it's important to know about harmony and the chords underneath you when soloing, but what really matters is to have a natural ear (which you can develop) and a good sense of creativity.

dasdog

I can only comment as a self taught guitarist who is comfortable with a lot of styles but Classical and Jazz are two forms where I'd think lessons are a must. I'm still really poor after a lot of self taught attempts and when it comes to other styles and improvisation I don't really have a problem. I can hear the tunes upstairs but I'll almost certainly hit a wrong chord/scale in no time and end up in trouble that I'd find easy to get out of when playing say blues or rock (or not even get in trouble in the first place). Best of luck with it though. Might actually get a guitar book myself for the first time in nearly two decades.

Desmo

dasdog wrote: »

I can only comment as a self taught guitarist who is comfortable with a lot of styles but Classical and Jazz are two forms where I'd think lessons are a must. I'm still really poor after a lot of self taught attempts and when it comes to other styles and improvisation I don't really have a problem. I can hear the tunes upstairs but I'll almost certainly hit a wrong chord/scale in no time and end up in trouble that I'd find easy to get out of when playing say blues or rock (or not even get in trouble in the first place). Best of luck with it though. Might actually get a guitar book myself for the first time in nearly two decades.

You really have to know the tunes and/or have good ears. With some jazz tunes you can noodle (pentatonics or blues scales) for ages because they stay in one key for entire easy to hear chunks (e.g. Autumn Leaves, All Blues, Blue Bossa). Jazzers hate to hear you do that but you can bluff it nonetheless. What they aim to do is to play stuff that genuinely follows the changes; that reflects the tones in some or most of the chords as they go past and that reflects the changes from one chord to another. To do that by ear requires great skill and practice but good jazzers can do that. As an intermediate aim, you can do it over tunes where you know the chord progression by heart and have some pre arranged ideas to use over different groups of chords.

Some jazz tunes modulate too fast to even noodle though and you have to be careful and it is hard to get out if you just get lost. Even there, it is incredible sometimes to hear really good guys who can follow tunes like that by ear.

I am at the stage where I can bluff noodle over simple tunes and make some progress over tunes I know really well. To play along with a tune cold with no lead sheet is beyond me by a mile though.

Setun

Desmo wrote: »

Some jazz tunes modulate too fast to even noodle though and you have to be careful and it is hard to get out if you just get lost. Even there, it is incredible sometimes to hear really good guys who can follow tunes like that by ear.

Giant Steps :eek: That takes a lot of work and preparation for definite.

damonjewel

My jump into jazz was to sit down with my pianist and discuss each chord blow for blow, and then agree on a scale\mode for each chord that suited both of us. Therefore there are fewer bum notes.

If you want to stick to a scale, try a mixolydian scale around a 9th chord progression (e.g. the G major scale, which is d Mixolydian scale over a dmaj9, d7 and emin9, its kinda zappaesque. happy noodling

willdufauve

A lot of people like the teaching materials by Jamie Ebersol. You could also check out the Homespun company's video instruction series.

For a beginner, lessons are pretty essential. If you can't afford them, then hang out at clubs and jam sessions and see whose sound you like who will give you some free help getting started. Most musicians have had help from better players along the way and will return the favor when asked.

stevejazzx

Desmo wrote: »

There is actually a fair crowd of jazz guitarists who post and read this board; the playing and techniques board is a mixed bag and you can be lucky but he might as well start here?

I started jazz guitar as a middle aged man 5 years ago from scratch and it is effing hard. If you have good ears and/or know any theory then the classical way to learn is to copy from/play along with records and play with other jazz musicians until they stop shouting at you. To do that you need to learn tunes (the chords and melodies of whatever tunes they want to play). In my case, I needed lessons. I was getting nowhere until I started lessons. Now I have gone from being utterly useless (no chops, no ears, no timing, no hope) to being merely not very good but I am getting there :-).

Well done...getting into it late on is very hard. One thing to realise is that you should be hearing the melodic line of everything you listen, whether it's a tv add or some new pop song, hum internally and then play it out on the guitar...after a while this improves your ear and you can really start to get into jazz. Jazz guitar is extremely difficult, when I was 20 I tohught i could play having done classical guitar grade 6&7 but its only now 11 years later that my ear is finally settling into the comfort zone I need to be able to play jazz. Even with all the practising I've done when playing a gig it is extremely difficult to 'really' improvise. A lot of guys aren't improvising even when they think they are, that's just the plain truth of it.
That's why so many of them sound the same. To really improvise takes massive knowledge, confidnece and musical feel. When someone is doing it it is clear, anyone who can do it properly is a master of their instrument.

Setun

stevejazzx wrote: »

Well done...getting into it late on is very hard. One thing to realise is that you should be hearing the melodic line of everything you listen, whether it's a tv add or some new pop song, hum internally and then play it out on the guitar...after a while this improves your ear and you can really start to get into jazz. Jazz guitar is extremely difficult, when I was 20 I tohught i could play having done classical guitar grade 6&7 but its only now 11 years later that my ear is finally settling into the comfort zone I need to be able to play jazz. Even with all the practising I've done when playing a gig it is extremely difficult to 'really' improvise. A lot of guys aren't improvising even when they think they are, that's just the plain truth of it.
That's why so many of them sound the same. To really improvise takes massive knowledge, confidnece and musical feel. When someone is doing it it is clear, anyone who can do it properly is a master of their instrument.

I agree. I also think that there's a tendency to over-analyse improvisation (as well as the aforementioned 'noodling' or under-analysis perhaps) on a technical level. True I learned my scales until they practically played themselves, practiced my tone, studied harmony and listened and copied a lot of what the greats were doing. But as Miles Davis said at the Bitches Brew session: "play like you can't play." :cool: There's not one jazz cliche on that record, it's wholly original, and while not to everyone's liking, it's admirable what davis was trying to do and the powerful and new sound he got extracted from those musicians. Very unorthodox I think, but fantastic. Bearing in mind that these players were technically faultless (in most cases) at the time - but when it comes to improvisation: free your mind and your ass will follow.

Desmo

stevejazzx wrote: »

Well done...getting into it late on is very hard. One thing to realise is that you should be hearing the melodic line of everything you listen, whether it's a tv add or some new pop song, hum internally and then play it out on the guitar...after a while this improves your ear and you can really start to get into jazz. Jazz guitar is extremely difficult, when I was 20 I tohught i could play having done classical guitar grade 6&7 but its only now 11 years later that my ear is finally settling into the comfort zone I need to be able to play jazz. Even with all the practising I've done when playing a gig it is extremely difficult to 'really' improvise. A lot of guys aren't improvising even when they think they are, that's just the plain truth of it.
That's why so many of them sound the same. To really improvise takes massive knowledge, confidnece and musical feel. When someone is doing it it is clear, anyone who can do it properly is a master of their instrument.

It is an adventure and a journey so that makes it exciting. What kills me though is the sheer amount of time it takes to learn just one little thing (a few chords; a scale; a groove; part of a tune; a bit of a solo). I have to stay very patient (and so does my teacher :-).

The ear thing is clearly what would most make it happen for me. IT is easier now than when I started but I really really wish I had done it as a kid. I played in school band as a kid (tin whistle) and school choir and tried to teach myself guitar so at least I had some exposure but my ears are very underdeveloped. Good jazz musicians can tell what intervals are being played with what chord; I can tell zilch without looping it over and over and hitting on it by trial and error. I really have to try what you say (pick stuff up from radio and TV as I hear it)!!

stevejazzx

Daddio wrote: »

I agree. I also think that there's a tendency to over-analyse improvisation (as well as the aforementioned 'noodling' or under-analysis perhaps) on a technical level. True I learned my scales until they practically played themselves, practiced my tone, studied harmony and listened and copied a lot of what the greats were doing. But as Miles Davis said at the Bitches Brew session: "play like you can't play." :cool: There's not one jazz cliche on that record, it's wholly original, and while not to everyone's liking, it's admirable what davis was trying to do and the powerful and new sound he got extracted from those musicians. Very unorthodox I think, but fantastic. Bearing in mind that these players were technically faultless (in most cases) at the time - but when it comes to improvisation: free your mind and your ass will follow.

Yeah I know what you mean, I know a bunch of guys I got some corporate gig work for them, they told me they like to play 'free jazz'...I thought right, these guys are either idiots or genisues....turned out to be the latter but that is rare..usually I deal with the idiots.

shatners basoon

If you're totally starting from scratch i'd advise going down a more blues orientated route. Joe Pass has a lovely simplified approach to music which purely invololves the sounds of chords as opposed the theory behind them (though like Wes his ear and ability to carry a tune is beyond what most of us could ever hope to achieve.)

I found this video pretty inspiring when i got it a few years ago, good to see someone posted it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9V4SzY78j8

Regarding advise with playing - the more you play the better you'll be, there are few shortcuts to getting good ( though there are bad ways to approach playing so do try and get the odd lesson to sort out any bad habits and give you a bit of direction). Most importantly listen to yourself play, i mean really listen - record yourself if you have to. and as said listen and analyse solos you hear on record, memorise the lines - this will help develop your ear, whistling and scatting (da be da doop... da DUM ...da be da doop etc.!) while you play really helps your ear and creates associations between the notes in your head and those you play.
Good luck.

franamico

buck65 wrote: »

Got a jazz guitar book yesterday from Amazon - Jazz Guitar for absolute beginners by Amanda Monaco.
I learned some guitar waaaay back and got a present of a lovely guitar from my wife so I have mastered the basics again recently (chords , a bit of finger plucking , basic riffs) .
Wondering if anyone else has ever had a crack at self teaching a new instrument
experiences, recommendations anything or does anyone play jazz guitar?
Would love advice

Hello!
Just got your post.
Yes absolutely! you can teach yourself.
People like Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass were self taught and today they are studied in all colleges around the world.

However, you can also check some amazing courses available for just a few bucks. One of them is guitar tricks. com.

The best of luck!
Francesco

equivariant

Seeing as this old thread just got bumped, I just wanted to mention that Martin Taylor is starting up an online school for jazz guitarists (I have nothing to do with this site btw so this is not a disguised advert). You will be able to exchange video lessons with him and actually get personalised instruction from the man himself. Its run by the same people behind the Jimmy Bruno site.

Seeing as MT is one of my all time favourite guitarists, I'll be chomping at the (electronic) bit to sign up (next month).

PS Did I mention that it will be ridiculously cheap