Atheist from birth?

studiorat

Ok, are we born Atheists or Agnostics?

Personally I think Atheisim is the natural state of the mind.

Discuss...

liah

It kind of depends.

Technically, we're not atheist but we're not religious when we're born. We just don't really consider it.

It is completely natural and a part of the human defense mechanism to believe in a higher being, regardless of religion. It gives peace of mind, and explanation, and strength (sort of like how adrenaline works when you're put in a short-term stressful or dangerous setting)-- which, in a tough situation such as a relative passing, can help pull the feeble human mind through a lot more than it would normally be able to endure. That does not mean a higher being exists, or that those who believe in one are mentally stronger. In my personal opinion, they're not particularly strong people if they need to believe in a "force" guiding them and helping them through their lives instead of having faith in themselves and their friends and family to pull them through situations when they really need it.

That's just belief, anyway. Not specific to any religion, which was mostly created as a means to unite the populace and make sure everyone had the same ideas, values, beliefs, etc., to make it easier to control a large population. Quite simple tbh. Nobody's born believing any specific religion, they're indoctrinated, and to some degree, brainwashed by their upbringing or surroundings.

As for atheism, it takes a very strong person to genuinely be atheist, and strength of character is only developed over time, so nobody can really be born an atheist, now, can they?

Just my thoughts on the subject.

studiorat

I don't know about needing strong will power to be a Atheist, really. For me it seems to be the default setting. I'd think having a faith would need concentration and meditation on the matter. I very weak willed!

Atheism is just what theists call it IMO, I think people see atheism as some sort of religion. It's not...

As for using a religion in times of strife, I've found the kindness of others much more helpful.

smcgiff

studiorat wrote: »

I'd think having a faith would need concentration and meditation on the matter.

Just not too much or you'd end up being an atheist again!;)

eoin5

liah wrote: »

It kind of depends.

Technically, we're not atheist but we're not religious when we're born. We just don't really consider it.

Theism is a yes or no situation, you either believe in a personal god or not. A 0 year old baby has no concept of religion or god and so therefore cannot believe in one ergo (yes I said ergo ) they are atheists.

brianthebard

I think children/babies probably view their parents and mother especially as a sort of god,at least until some sort of lacanian postlapserian experience.

Zillah

liah wrote: »

which, in a tough situation such as a relative passing, can help pull the feeble human mind through a lot more than it would normally be able to endure.

I disagree. In my experience people deal with grief much better as atheists. My reaction is usually "This is really awful and I feel sad", whereas religious people get stuck with horrible questions like "Why him? What did he do wrong? Is he in heaven? Why would God do this?" etc.

I don't turn towards any great existential why at all.

Galvasean

I would imagine new born babies are agnostic. They don't care at the moment but have the potential to become theists or atheists.

studiorat

Well I think Atheisim is the absence of a belief in god/gods. Where Agnosticism requires a knowledge of a belief system already. So a newborn is Atheist, note I use the term Atheist rather than "an Atheist"

There seems to be an opinion that agnosticism is “better” than atheism because it is less dogmatic. If atheists are closed-minded because they are not agnostic, then so to are theists.

Galvasean

Agnostics; atheists who don't want to be yelled at.

brianthebard

So true gav.If everyone could believe what they believe just a little less i'd be happy.

Dades

My two week old daughter is an atheist. Just don't tell her mother.

But seriously, I don't think the either term can apply to a newborn as I believe both require a knowledge of the god concept. You might as well call newborns vegetarians or pioneers.

Discuss? Nothing to discuss imo.

ChocolateSauce

Well I think if theism = adherence to a religion then a-theism is non-adherence to a religion. Since a baby doesn't even know what religion is, they are therefore (ergo?) atheists.

brianthebard

Lets not bring ergo into this.And theism is a belief in a god,gods or higher being,not in religion.

challengemaster

Dades wrote: »

My two week old daughter is an atheist. Just don't tell her mother.

But seriously, I don't think the either term can apply to a newborn as I believe both require a knowledge of the god concept. You might as well call newborns vegetarians or pioneers.

Discuss? Nothing to discuss imo.

Perfectally put tbh. Also this is one of the main problems I have with religions - You're forced into them from birth pretty much. Whatever your parents are, you become the same.. At that age, you really don't understand anything about any religion.. so I don't think it's fair to bring anyone into a faith at that age. I think everyone should be properly educated and at say, age 17/18, be allowed choose their own faith or no faith.. unfortunatly, doesn't seem something that logical will happen any time soon..

brianthebard

Actually certain faiths such as the anabaptists would've followed that sort of policy.

limerick_woody

Theism is the belief in a supernatural being -- ignoring all the baggage that follows that, Atheism is simple the lack-there-of. My children are 2 and 3 and i am pretty sure they are not theists - ergo (sorry, again) we are all Atheists until told otherwise.

Dades

limerick, how do know they're not agnostics?!

Zillah

Dades wrote: »

limerick, how do know they're not agnostics?!

An agnostic is one who maintains that they are unconvinced that God either exists or does not exist, ergo, one who has not encountered the concept of God cannot maintain the above.

An atheist is one who has no belief in God. If a person has no concept of God then they by definition have no belief in God.



This is all irrelevant twaddle, of course.

Tropheus

I don't think you are born anything. From my personal experience, you are indoctrinated into a religion by scool/parents. I stopped believing in a god at the same time I stopped belieiving in santa and the tooth fairy.

limerick_woody

Dades wrote: »

limerick, how do know they're not agnostics?!

They are utterly unaware of Agnosticism, which i would consider an an intellectual position - in time they may become Agnostic about Gods but not yet - unless the Power-Rangers have discussed it...

seamus

It may be just me, but I think as humans we have an uncontrollable need to explain the world around us, to ourselves. Better understanding of the world I suppose helps us to better control the world, so if we can come up with a theory which seems to fit most of our observations, then we can use that in future to work with it better.

I can certainly remember as a kid, coming up with explanations of how, what and why to satisfy my own curiosity, most of it pure and utter nonsense, but close enough to "It's magic" or "it's God". The beauty of the God theory is that it will *always* hold true for any given set of circumstances (because it transcends any boundaries or requirements), and comfortably fills in that hole.

This is probably how the God theory first appeared - primitive cultures who had no alternative theory except that there must be a higher power. Otherwise how could the sky rumble, pour water which wasn't there 5 minutes ago and flash lights as bright as the sun?

Over time, obviously our bank of knowledge has increased, and the God theory is continually challenged and left there just to fill in the holes. This why religions rise and fall and why even the most hardened of superstitious people scoff at the idea of the Egyptians' many Gods each looking after specific areas of need.

Which is why the concept of an Abrahamic god is fundamentally flawed and doomed to failure. For all intents and purposes, it's humanity's equivalent of a five-year-old's attempt to understand how the TV works. The theory works fine and stands up to the five-year-old's scrutiny, but as he gains more knowledge he will naturally shed that belief.

So I don't actually believe that children are born naturally atheist. I think the discussion has been had here before, but I'd agree that being atheist actually does require some degree of conviction and consideration. Since the childish mind is more likely to favour magic and mystery over serious scientific rationality, then the childish mind will always tend towards religion.

pH

Just to echo the above, it seems we have a very strong desire to explain things, this means that we do genuinely seem to prefer any explanation, no matter how far fetched to no explanation.

We see this today with all sorts of paranormal beliefs, and with the traditional "God of the gaps" arguments throughout history. It just seems that it's never preferable to day "we have no idea", it's seems to always be preferable to say "The only reason *I* can think of is ..." and accept it.

Goduznt Xzst

imo, we are born atheists. The creation of Gods is an adult delusion. As a child you view your parents as your "gods", i.e. the people who are indestructible, always protecting and providing for you. It's only when you reach adulthood and this safety blanket of protection is removed and you begin to see your parents as mere mortal humans that you replace them with a fictitious higher power who will now take their place.

Gods are for humans who are scared to grow up and like the warm fuzzy feeling that they have a big powerful and protecting parent always looking out for them and keeping them safe.

Dades

Zillah wrote: »

This is all irrelevant twaddle, of course.

Indeed it is!

A newborn is just a small, noisy digestive tract, certainly not capable of being placed in a theological pigeonhole.

philologos

Galvasean wrote: »

I would imagine new born babies are agnostic. They don't care at the moment but have the potential to become theists or atheists.

I personally believe the same, they start off as agnostics, and then develop faith in different things. Atheism takes faith to deny the existence of God so fervently, and religion takes faith to affirm his existence.

Dades

Jakkass wrote: »

Atheism takes faith to deny the existence of God so fervently...

Only faith in your own ability to reach a conclusion.

The theist claim that atheism requires faith is nothing but a lame attempt to couple it with religion. Like anything completely invisible, intangible, with no measurable influence or effect on the natural world, faith is only required to believe it does exist.

Goduznt Xzst

Dades wrote: »

Indeed it is!

A newborn is just a small, noisy digestive tract, certainly not capable of being placed in a theological pigeonhole.

the importance of this topic is not whether we can have a faith as a baby it's whether we are predisposed to create Gods. Whether belief in a deity is a result of nature or nurture. I hope for humanities sakes its the latter otherwise we're doomed to never be free from the grip of god delusions.

As long as there is a want in people for a higher being that can save them, there will be someone there to exploit them.

Galvasean

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

As long as there is a want in people for a higher being that can save them, there will be someone there to exploit them.

In the baby's case the higher being is usually referred to as 'mammy'.

studiorat

Galvasean wrote: »

In the baby's case the higher being is usually referred to as 'mammy'.

Not really. See "mammy" is tangible. She feeds baby, changes nappies and is real. There's no stretch of the imagination to believe if she exists or not. As far as I know every human on the planet has or had one...

Religion is a function based on Geological Position, if a religious person was born in another part of the world they would believe in one of the other religions on our planet. Personally I believe that humans have a evolutionary pre-disposition to religious belief. "Homnid groups who buried their dead for example more likely to evolve than those who don't due to death from diseases like cholera and typhoid". Thus the practice become "folk-science" in a memetic sense, building on the output of evolved cognitive processes which have been adapted. Basically those of us who's brains are wired to be susceptible to such ideas evolve those who don't die off. (H.Erectus etc.)

Some have suggested a connection with the gene VMAT 2 to a predisposition to religious experience. A feeling of "self-trancendance", a feeling of universal connectedness, openness to mysticism, generally accepted to as close to a scientific measure of spirituality as currently available.

So maybe we are born as atheists but we are naturally open to suggestions of a religious nature? So spirituality in fact may come from an evolutionary process, the irony may not be lost on some...