Getting involved!

FlipperThePriest

Hi all,

At the moment I'm finishing my thesis to complete my Masters in Music Technology. I have a degree in IT Management.

I want to pursue a career in the industry and I'd like a bit of advice from anyone out there that was in my situation at some stage. I realise the thousands of young lads out there that are dying for this kind of employment and this is what scares me, as even though my Masters has provided me with great experience - I'm still going to be on the bottom rung like every other 17/18 yr old out there.

I would love to do anything from sound design to broadcast engineering and am in the process of applying to BBC as they have a great work experience opportunity. My real ambition lies with Production though and I'd love to get involved in a studio job; I have used protools HD2 and 32 channel audient mixing desks so I've a fair bit of knowledge, but more importantly - I make a great cup of tea!!:o

My masters included subjects like Recording Techniques and Technologies, Music Production, Electroacoustic Music Composition, Programming for Musical Applications, Electronics and DSP, amongst others; all of which I scored pretty highly in.

I'm living in [snipped] at the mo and wonder would it be recommendable to move to the big smoke before I start looking or would studios consider employing if they thought I wasn't living local at the time? Also, would it be better to apply in person as I'm sure most established studios would get bunged with emails!

Any advice is much appreciated!

sei046

zippy84 wrote: »

I have used protools HD2 and 32 channel audient mixing desks so I've a fair bit of knowledge.

I would be hesitant to say that you have a fair bit of knowledge thanks to working with them pieces.

Hello!

Welcome.

TBH I think your probably better off building up your own gear and own studio and making a go at it yourself. You are obviously the type of person who can take an academic type approach to things so just keep reading and watching videos and building up your tricks. More importantly though, use them!

From the studios i know, The academic background doesnt really hold much weight with studios who will be much more interested in your experience in reality. (that sounds weird)

They are much more interested in real life experience so try and built that up first. Your right in saying there are so many applicants and at least by making your own shot you are REALLY going to learn the hard way. You build up your practical skills and will come across every sort of client and situation.

That would be my 2c.
Dave

FlipperThePriest

sei046 wrote: »

I would be hesitant to say that you have a fair bit of knowledge thanks to working with them pieces.....Dave

Yeah I see what you mean, what I meant was that I have worked with decent systems so I have (at least) beginners knowledge, I realise this does not amount to industry comparable experience. I should have left it out.

As regards setting up my own studio; this would be ideal, but I think I'll have to put it on hold for a few yrs because as I'm finishing college I don't really have the resources; a place to work from, much money, and my area doesn't really lend itself to copious opportunities.

Ideally I would love to build up my experience by serving as an assistant in a more accomplished studio for a few years; after which I could use the skills and knowledge learned in that environment (plus knowledge of the industry)to set up a place of my own.

sei046

I wasnt raggin on you about the pro tools thing, Just that its a huge falling point for lads when they are looking for work to quote their experience in such a way. It is good though I suppose to say you can work these pieces.

I know what your saying and its something you should try but what I was trying to say was don't rubbish the do it yourself approach in favour of an apprenticeship. You really will learn very fast through mistakes. And going into bigger studios, while being a good engineer/producer in your own right, has many advantages when it comes to respect and your own personal confidence in your abilities.

PaulBrewer

In with Victor by the sound of it? The Audient's a fine bit of tackle isn't it?

You're conundrum is interesting in so far as it's at a time when there are more and more 'Qualified' people being generated by the education system , there are less and less full time Jobs.

It should also be noted that a lot of employers (the few there are) don't believe the Qualifications represent an actual measurement of the applicants suitability for a post, especially when it come to music recording.

I'm not sure I know any recording engineer or Producer with a full time job outside of TV/Radio.

However there is work, but a lot of it is self employed work i.e. contract style.

FlipperThePriest

You mean Victor la******i?

No I'm not at Maynooth, I'm studying in [snipped]. He'd be my external examiner though so I'd have to say he was pretty good to me (cuz my grades aren't bad!)

To you it might be interesting, to me it's a bit of a nightmare! As far as suitability is concerned, academia only represents a small portion of my abilities or experience, for example; I would regard my ear for music and sound far more valuable than anything I've learned at college. I see what your saying about college qualifications though as some of the people I've seen go through are really amazingly tallented and others don't even know what an equaliser or a compressor does. However, both end up with the same qualifiacation!

So do you think my Masters was a waste of time, as you say.."a lot of employers (the few there are) don't believe the Qualifications represent an actual measurement of the applicants suitability for a post" , so you reckon potential employers completely disregard any academic qualification for experience?

thanks for the comments

PaulBrewer

zippy84 wrote: »

Y so you reckon potential employers completely disregard any academic qualification for experience?

In my experience, there isn't the confidence in Audio related education as there is in Medicine, for example.

The percentage of 'successful' engineer/producers who have audio related degrees/masters is very, very low I'd imagine.

We've had this discussion before on here. Engineer education needs to be in an apprenticeship style. As it stands a lot of it that I've seen, is similar to learning the theory to flying a plane but never visiting an airfield.

You make a good point re people not knowing EQs or compressors and getting the same paperwork as someone who's good.

That's the fault in the system, the qualifications don't represent real life and the music biz is a cold heartless real life - it's very 'perform or feck off'.

jtsuited

zippy84 wrote: »

You mean Victor la******i?

how do you spell Lazzarini in a way that makes a bad word?

FlipperThePriest

jtsuited wrote: »

how do you spell Lazzarini in a way that makes a bad word?

10/10 for the observational skills and detective work, now that you've solved that, have you anything constructive to add?


Paul, I agree with all your points and you have confirmed my doubts but now that you've pointed out all the negatives that lay before me, can you add some possitives? Is there light at the end of the tunnel?

jtsuited

zippy84 wrote: »

10/10 for the observational skills and detective work, now that you've solved that, have you anything constructive to add?

detective work? no, he was my thesis supervisor etc.

yeah I have something constructive to add if you want to work in the music business-
don't get so bitchy with people if you want help.

being painfully realistic, as was said by Paul, outside TV/Radio you would be extremely lucky to get any sort of stable employment.
Hell even in Radio/TV, it's not that stable. But to give you an idea of the actual numbers.

Last year RTE advertised for a position as a TV sound operator (which literally is the guy on the late late holding the boom mic over the audience as they ask their questions). There were over 5000 applications. under 20 people got on a panel of people that are occasionally working here and there (I know this because I'm one of the 20).

I'm one of the lucky ones actually who does a bit of work in the NCH for lyric fm (yup tv sound operator my hole!). So if you want my constructive advice - get some gear, do it because you love it, and you might get a break.
Do not expect a pension, mortgage, job security or anything remotely resembling it.

You might be one of those sickos (like myself) who doesn't want those things anyways!

PaulBrewer

zippy84 wrote: »

Is there light at the end of the tunnel?

Oh yes ! There always is.

If you're brilliant you will succeed. The problems, as we've suggested, is measuring your brilliance.

As there is no standard path into the industry you'll have to create your own.

I hope I'm not putting an overly negative tone on things but I do think the points I've raised are realistic.

There are also a couple of Educators here on Boards who might make a posting.

Interestingly, the one advantage you have over a lot of us is your qualification. With that you can teach! Even though you may not have a feckin clue! It's a great little country.

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

With that you can teach! Even though you may not have a feckin clue! It's a great little country.

amen to that! i dread to think of a few of my MA classmates trying to use a mixing desk, let alone teaching how to use it.

FlipperThePriest

jtsuited wrote: »

amen to that! i dread to think of a few of my MA classmates trying to use a mixing desk, let alone teaching how to use it.

I'll second that!

Didn't mean to sound bitchy, I thought you were having a go is all.

Thanks for the comments

jtsuited

zippy84 wrote: »

I'll second that!

Didn't mean to sound bitchy, I thought you were having a go is all.

Thanks for the comments

nah wasn't having a go at all. no worries man.



ok so let's pretend now that I'm a big fancy shmancy studio owner and my regular tea boy (who makes tea so good it would make angels cry) just got a job producing the new U2 album (skills he learnt after I said 'yeah of course you can use the studio when there's no-one here, lock up when ya finish').

He's off jetting around the world now, and I'm dying for a cup of tea and need someone to drive the desk for a week as I'm goin to court for a few speeding ticket offences. Now I don't want to go through the hundreds of cv's of young people who have recently completed one of them fancy MA's.

A nice young fella like yourself calls up to me one day and says 'I'll take minimum wage (or less), will go to the shop every 15 minutes to get the band cigarettes and the racing post, will work 80 hours a week, tune the guitars and drumkit (very important), lift the gear in on my own (in the rain), and will keep you up to date on every new bit of gear that comes out so an aul fella like you won't be out of the loop.

The band will like working with me, I'll make jokes and keep them happy, I'll ring tech support for all those pesky plugin problems and will make sure none of the band spill coffee/tobacco on the desk (and if they do, I'll clean it up and not give out).
And I'll do all the fiddly bits of editing that bad drummer's take to make sure the snare is somewhere in the right place. And a billion other things too'

And I go 'cool, seems like the kinda guy I need, but right now there's some pretty decent engineers that'll do that for me, and get a good sound while I'm out golfing, why should I choose this young fella?'

And then you go 'here's a cd with all the bands I've recorded lately on my own rig. I've got a tight drum sound, and the mixes are bloody brilliant considering I did it all on an mbox, with the digirack plugins in a practice shed beside the m50 and the airport'.

I listen to it and I think 'this kid's got bagloads of talent, determination, and he'll probably generate decent bit of business with his hard work, people skills, mixing, and tea making skills. And how did he get that overhead sound with a pair of thomann mics???'

Maybe I should get him in for a month to see how it goes?


So you pretty much see what you're gonna have to do here yeah?

edit: btw, I'm not a fancy shmancy studio owner so don't pm me with your CV!!

sei046

jtsuited wrote: »

nah wasn't having a go at all. no worries man.



ok so let's pretend now that I'm a big fancy shmancy studio owner and my regular tea boy (who makes tea so good it would make angels cry) just got a job producing the new U2 album (skills he learnt after I said 'yeah of course you can use the studio when there's no-one here, lock up when ya finish').

He's off jetting around the world now, and I'm dying for a cup of tea and need someone to drive the desk for a week as I'm goin to court for a few speeding ticket offences. Now I don't want to go through the hundreds of cv's of young people who have recently completed one of them fancy MA's.

A nice young fella like yourself calls up to me one day and says 'I'll take minimum wage (or less), will go to the shop every 15 minutes to get the band cigarettes and the racing post, will work 80 hours a week, tune the guitars and drumkit (very important), lift the gear in on my own (in the rain), and will keep you up to date on every new bit of gear that comes out so an aul fella like you won't be out of the loop.

The band will like working with me, I'll make jokes and keep them happy, I'll ring tech support for all those pesky plugin problems and will make sure none of the band spill coffee/tobacco on the desk (and if they do, I'll clean it up and not give out).
And I'll do all the fiddly bits of editing that bad drummer's take to make sure the snare is somewhere in the right place. And a billion other things too'

And I go 'cool, seems like the kinda guy I need, but right now there's some pretty decent engineers that'll do that for me, and get a good sound while I'm out golfing, why should I choose this young fella?'

And then you go 'here's a cd with all the bands I've recorded lately on my own rig. I've got a tight drum sound, and the mixes are bloody brilliant considering I did it all on an mbox, with the digirack plugins in a practice shed beside the m50 and the airport'.

I listen to it and I think 'this kid's got bagloads of talent, determination, and he'll probably generate decent bit of business with his hard work, people skills, mixing, and tea making skills. And how did he get that overhead sound with a pair of thomann mics???'

Maybe I should get him in for a month to see how it goes?


So you pretty much see what you're gonna have to do here yeah?

In a nutshell.

FlipperThePriest

Thomann mic?
I wish! I used a Sing Along karaoke mic from CD world for 20 notes making the thomann believe it was a TLM 103. Lucky enough, the radar was down that day at the airport so I just waited till rushhour so there was no noise coming from the M50 (traffic at a standstill).

Yeah I hear you man, it's the truth!!

jtsuited

zippy84 wrote: »

Thomann mic?
I wish! I used a Sing Along karaoke mic from CD world for 20 notes making the thomann believe it was a TLM 103. Lucky enough, the radar was down that day at the airport so I just waited till rushhour so there was no noise coming from the M50 (traffic at a standstill).

Yeah I hear you man, it's the truth!!

haha.
i think the answer to your questions is actually in the title of your post 'getting involved'.
You gots to somehow get involved.

Hope I don't ramble too much but I'll give you some personal anecdotal stuff if it helps.

Now I don't know how much knowledge you have (I have an MA too, and even in what I do - electronic music - it comes in handy rarely), but these days you got to know EVERYTHING if you're trying to break in from the bottom. Like the silliest little skills will get you the next job.

For instance, I got a good bit of work by being able to read music. Yup, by being able to tell someone there's a problem at bar 129 in the flute section by being able to read the score of an orchestral piece meant an hour of someone else's time saved.

Other bits of work I've got have been for a plethora of funny reasons - someone's drummer woke up not able to feel his left arm (this is actually true!), got a phone call saying could i do the session, went in started messing around with an MS2000 and when they saw I could program the bloody thing, they asked me to fix a load of dodgy synth sounds in the recording.
Next thing I know I'm fixing a few bum bass notes, etc., helping with the hard parts of the mix etc.
Three months later and I was still in there everyday (for a decent amount of money surprisingly), doing all sorts of stuff. Now it was by no means high profile work or anything. But it was experience and I learned other things while I was there that have come in handy.
Some guy heard the recordings and then asked me to play on his record while helping do mixes, remixes etc. Another bit of work - nice one.

So that's just an example of how I got a foot in the door so to speak in one small area. And I'd be one of the young fellas nowadays who most people (including my producer father) would say 'no chance, go become a doctor or lawyer! (which I may or may not do, depending on how this techno career pans out)'

Another example I'll use is how I got my first remix out.

Sean Nash (who posts here - hi sean hope you don't mind me telling this story) got a lucky break (i mean it in a good way) when DJ Pierre (he's important to many people - one of his tracks was the reason Acid House was called Acid House) accidentally heard his tracks from a sort of friend of both of them.
He was on another forum and was having trouble with one of the mixes and was asking for advice. I said I'd do a mixdown for him if he sent me the files etc.
When I got them, I got the silly idea into my head of doing a whole remix with a new bassline, drums etc. Sean liked it and it ended up being released. That got my name on to beatport, which is actually a good thing for trying to get other stuff signed to labels as they get a demo and see 'oh this guy's already got stuff out, so let's see'.
Now a good few months later, and I'm actually selling a good few copies of an EP I did a while back, and sort of being seen (in my niche) as a guy to go for difficult mixes, mastering etc.
Some huge DJ's have been playing my tracks out, and I'm even popping up all over the place in torrents (don't know how I feel about that one, but it's a sign you're doing something right)
I've even sort of got a bookings agent and all now and a lot of decent gigs coming up etc..

Now this is not meant as a boast at all (although it sort of looks like it:o), i'm trying to illustrate that the little things you do, are what give you 'lucky' breaks and while I wouldn't class myself as a successful producer by any means (yet), I am in a lot better place than most who are struggling to get their foot in the door etc.

Read SOS enough and you notice that the mega successful engineers/producers/musicians/etc. all started from the bottom, doing bits and pieces here and there, and always working on whatever they could because they loved it.
And because they loved it they became really good at it. And because they became really good at it, and loved it, they did whatever they could. And some of those small things, led to bigger things, and gradually over a long time, they built up reputations etc.

And even if the small things didn't lead to better bigger things, you can be guaranteed most of them would still be doing it.

FlipperThePriest

Yeah you're dead right. (corrected:))
I try to keep as involved as possible but it's tough at the mo with this thesis I'm in the middle of. I have been doing some local stuff i.e. recording local trad sessions in pubs (for guys who need to raise 10K for charity) and mastering the sessions. Some of the tracks (I think) have since been played on LMFM and other local stations and the CD will be available in local pubs. (as best I can because I'm really using MINIMAL gear). Think when I get the thesis out of the way I'll have to concentrate on my own stuff more, get some my own style on display!

Fair play to you, your obviously getting your fair share, I mean there's only a certain amount of luck involved - in that something goes wrong, people turn to the next best man which often in cases is obviously you. So I suppose you prove yourself and you move up the rank of people to choose from. Makes sense

PaulBrewer

zippy84 wrote: »

Yeah your dead right.

Yeah, 'you're' wrong ...... Masters, yeah?

jtsuited

zippy84 wrote: »

Yeah your dead right.
I try to keep as involved as possible but it's tough at the mo with this thesis I'm in the middle of. I have been doing some local stuff i.e. recording local trad sessions in pubs

charity record, here's an idea. you're up in dundalk yeah? i know a couple up there (haven't talked to them in a long time), who are very accomplished musicians - the girl is a very famous trad violinist, the other was in a band who played slane (you probably know who I'm talkin bout at this stage).

Ask the dudes who are making the charity record to ask the couple to come down to the session some night and play away.
You just record etc., be nice, give em your number and say if they ever want to do a bit of recording etc.

Now you've got a little bit of experience with 'big names', which at least looks good on paper, and over time these experiences seem really impressive to some people, and can get you all sorts of gigs, as some people are genuinely impressed by namedropping (not me of course) enough that they'll think you're the bees knees and ring you up anytime they want X done.

You make your own luck.

PS. While I think this sort of strategy is slightly dishonest and highly unethical, I have seen it work out for a lot of people in the music business in Ireland. I mean grade A bullsh1tters who because they lifted an amp for U2 sometime in the 80's think they have world class pro experience. It's up to you whether you want to play their game.

sei046

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Yeah, 'you're' wrong ...... Masters, yeah?

Dont mind paul, He has a serious Grammar Horn.

FlipperThePriest

Yeah his signature says it all!

Who needs good grammer at college when you've got spell check and wordweb! I'd say if he's big against bad grammar he's really going to love my Uncontrollable random misuse of Capital lettErs!

I know who you're (is that better Paul ) talking about jt, her husband was in my class. She's something else alright, he's pretty damn good himself! They're really busy touring most weekends and our sessions have more or less dried up at this stage, I think, but it would be a great idea. I must get on to the guys and see if something could be arranged.

You have to love the old name dropping!

PaulBrewer

zippy84 wrote: »

Yeah his signature says it all!

Who needs good grammer at college when you've got spell check and wordweb! I'd say if he's big against bad grammar he's really going to love my Uncontrollable random misuse of Capital lettErs!

I know who you're (is that better Paul ) talking about jt, her husband was in my class. She's something else alright, he's pretty damn good himself! They're really busy touring most weekends and our sessions have more or less dried up at this stage, I think, but it would be a great idea. I must get on to the guys and see if something could be arranged.

You have to love the old name dropping!

Us uneducated proles should stay together ....

jtsuited

zippy84 wrote: »

Yeah his signature says it all!

Who needs good grammer at college when you've got spell check and wordweb! I'd say if he's big against bad grammar he's really going to love my Uncontrollable random misuse of Capital lettErs!

I know who you're (is that better Paul ) talking about jt, her husband was in my class. She's something else alright, he's pretty damn good himself! They're really busy touring most weekends and our sessions have more or less dried up at this stage, I think, but it would be a great idea. I must get on to the guys and see if something could be arranged.

You have to love the old name dropping!

see i figured that you'd know them somehow. it's dundalk. i was in a band with his brother for a long time a few years ago.

oh is tumbleweed studio still open in dundalk? Derek Turner and Mark Deerey's place?
Derek's one of the most genuinely sound guys ever so beg him can you do some time with no pay etc? Or help him out down the spirit store?

You gotta see all your angles and try to make the most out of them. Stick your neck out. Worst thing that can ever happen is everyone says 'no feck off'. But sure what's wrong with that?

You're lucky enough in Dundalk that there are always a good few young bands kickin about that you can record for cheap/free to gets your skillz honed!

If you're the guy the local bands go to for cheap as chips but great recording sessions, you'll be the guy getting your foot in the door as time goes on. Or you'll be the guy building a nice studio knowing every band wants to work with.

Of course I'm presuming you're the most talented engineer ever with a set of golden ears, a great work ethic, and a way of getting on with bands that makes them think 'zippy, sound bloke and knows his sh1t'. Because that's what brings in the work!

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Us uneducated proles should stay together ....

no that's the last thing us bourgeois middle class need. An organized peasantry.
I shudder at the thought.

FlipperThePriest

Yep it's still tipping away alright...much to my knowledge. Don't really know them that well but I know Mark from being in the spirit store, sound bloke alright. They do one of these 7 day engineering courses in the studio for 300eu so I'd say they'd be well hesitant to let me in there without tryin to get a few bucks off me! But it's another good idea man that I have had knocking about in the old cranium.
Same craic with the local radio station - I went up to have a chat with the manager to see could I help out (unpaid); and even after chatting about my course and what was involved and how my interests were with production/engineering.. he still tried to sell me this 4 day broadcasting course for a few ton and at the end of it all (if I'm successful) I get to broadcast live on air for a few mins. I'm sure it's great for all these young naive whippersnappers dying to get into broadcasting but not really what I was looking for!
I AM going to get some gear when I finish this course though (even if I've nowhere to put it) maybe an 003 factory pack or something along those lines and a nice big synth.
JT your motivation knows no bounds, you've been most inspirational!

jtsuited

zippy84 wrote: »

Yep it's still tipping away alright...much to my knowledge. Don't really know them that well but I know Mark from being in the spirit store, sound bloke alright. They do one of these 7 day engineering courses in the studio for 300eu so I'd say they'd be well hesitant to let me in there without tryin to get a few bucks off me! But it's another good idea man that I have had knocking about in the old cranium.
Same craic with the local radio station - I went up to have a chat with the manager to see could I help out (unpaid); and even after chatting about my course and what was involved and how my interests were with production/engineering.. he still tried to sell me this 4 day broadcasting course for a few ton and at the end of it all (if I'm successful) I get to broadcast live on air for a few mins. I'm sure it's great for all these young naive whippersnappers dying to get into broadcasting but not really what I was looking for!
I AM going to get some gear when I finish this course though (even if I've nowhere to put it) maybe an 003 factory pack or something along those lines and a nice big synth.
JT your motivation knows no bounds, you've been most inspirational!

good to see you're getting a ball rolling. good luck with it.

as i say 'good things come to those who work!'

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

no that's the last thing us bourgeois middle class need. An organized peasantry.
I shudder at the thought.

Viva la revolution !

Who am I kidding.... I am bourgeois.

Viva La Vida!

Livin' La Vida Loca !

ZV Yoda

Great advice & great posts there JT!

jtsuited

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Great advice & great posts there JT!

danke schon.

sorry been talking to german people all morning!

COOKSTER

How about, rather than goin on the dole and sucking up to studio managers who generally have a ton of CVs to wade through, stick the IT bit with the Music Technology bit and throw your CV at Digidesign and Big Bear and, I don't know, Audio Warehouse. Use your years of education to figure out who might best employ you. Think a bit laterally to begin with, based on your current experience I wouldn't expect Aslan or Metallica to send you a PM straight away. With all the digital consoles and computer based systems about you should be useful to someone in the biz?

There are so many people with pieces of paper willing to make tea. I don't drink tea so why should you benefit from my facility and my knowledge? Unless you are already "in" the right place at the right time, these opportunities don't just fall out of the sky.
However, they do come from building up a portfolio of practical experience. Try booking time in a studio to do some familiarisation. If you're lucky the manager might let you in for free during down time once they get to know you. Try find a band (especially one that doesn't already have a "qualified engineer" in the ranks), who are willing to pay for the studio time. Doing overnight sessions and working bank holidays and christmas holidays are all very tough, but can pay dividends.
While doing any of the above you can build up a reputation and a contact network, the 2 qualifications that will get you engineering work in Ireland.
I'll give you a shout when I can afford you
Best of Luck
C;)

FlipperThePriest

Cheers C

I've come to the conclusion that my Masters in Music is quite similar to, say for example a degree in Business: Every f**ker in the country is doing one (for the craic), 90% of them probably wouldn't have the entrepreneurial skill needed to sell white lightning to an alco. You might learn to balance accounts in your sleep along the way but unless you have a good business acumin, a lot of creativity, imagination, personality and determination (all of which will never be learned at college) you will never have anything in an account to balance.