More Shizit?

PaulBrewer

We all hail the possibilities home studios offer. There can be no doubt that having the ability to make a whole track at home/on the train/at the airport is exciting.

It allows 10s of thousands of people over the last 20 + years to have a go at making a record - surely a good thing.

With so many new people involved it's obviously had a positive effect on the quality of Music released ....... More Good Stuff.

No?

Why not then ?

Is it 'Home Recording just allows More Shyte to be recorded' ?

Discuss............:cool:

Alter-Ego

Well naturally if more people can record on their own and for very little cost there's gonna be more sh1t, but statistically, theres gonna be more good stuff as well.

Take the good with the bad and all that jazz.

PaulBrewer

Alter-Ego wrote: »

Well naturally if more people can record on their own and for very little cost there's gonna be more sh1t, but statistically, theres gonna be more good stuff as well.

.

Any Proof?

There's surely 100 times more people recording, is there even twice as much good music?

indough

Alter-Ego wrote: »

Well naturally if more people can record on their own and for very little cost there's gonna be more sh1t, but statistically, theres gonna be more good stuff as well.

Take the good with the bad and all that jazz.

I don't believe this is true, before the mass availability of cheap recording options people had to go to professional studios, right? well think of it this way, if people had to pay significant money to record then many wouldn't bother if their music wasn't up to scratch, as they had something to lose, now that they don't have to pay any more than the cost of a half decent computer a cheap daw and an interface they can put out any old crap and not be worried about whether its been worth the money...also you must consider that in cutting out professional studios artists have also lost professional quality control, when people are recording and releasing their own music they are less likely to be as critical of their own work

here is an example, the rapper 'souljah boy' produced his first album on a demo of fruityloops, he promoted it on youtube and myspace, the album is complete garbage and went platinum in the US

sei046

But sure if its no good no one is going to hear it surely?

Has any ****e got out to the charts because because they were recorded in home studios?

There is a lot more ****e being recorded but its not going to get heard any more than before. But the good stuff that didnt have a chance before has one now.

Seems pretty simple.

indough

sei046 wrote: »

But sure if its no good no one is going to hear it surely?

Has any ****e got out to the charts because because they were recorded in home studios?

There is a lot more ****e being recorded but its not going to get heard any more than before. But the good stuff that didnt have a chance before has one now.

Seems pretty simple.

it does get heard though, as i pointed out in my last post there are artists selling millions of records because of this

sei046

I dont agree. If it gets heard and then bought, its not really ****e is it?

I dont like the majority of the music that has serious sales but other people do? Surely thats a good thing?

Definitely more ****e is getting heard but noone "Listens" to it. Its not like we have to listen to this stuff coming out of these studios, but we have so many more options.

An album isnt going to do VERY well if it isnt very good. Simple as. Marketing can sell so many copys but its not going to get it to Dark side of the moon or The black album status.

dav nagle

Well a small studio gives the beginner engineer an entry level facility for recording music for locals and word of mouth folk at a good price. This is a major + for everyone in the business. Artists/engineers starting off have no idea how to record, so starting on an affordable foot is a + . The other major thing to consider is that if small cheap home studios do their home work they will want to move out to fully professional commercial premises like me. So if there was no home studios there would be no large studio for me. Simple. I am looking for a commercial premises at the moment in my area D7. In January if my grant comes through I am out of this small little hell hole of a home studio and into the real deal. Take a bank overdraft out and get the place done up properly and build my gear up through my guitar school in the studio. Record on the weekends and push the guitar lessons out the door eventually. The key is to learn how to talk, then crawl, then walk etc.. God bless the home cheap studio vibe it could be the best thing in the world for many entrepreneurs, Viva la cheap home studio amigos.

indough

sei046 wrote: »

I dont agree. If it gets heard and then bought, its not really ****e is it?

plenty of ****e gets bought and plenty of great music doesn't sell at all

sei046 wrote: »

I dont like the majority of the music that has serious sales but other people do? Surely thats a good thing?

No it just means they have piss poor taste in music

sei046 wrote: »

An album isnt going to do VERY well if it isnt very good. Simple as. Marketing can sell so many copys but its not going to get it to Dark side of the moon or The black album status.

I've already pointed a prime example out to you, there's no way in hell you can justify that record going platinum..you are putting way too much faith in the tastes of the masses, crap music sells well all the time...seriously don't make me post one of his videos to prove it to you, i dont want to give you nightmares

sei046

But?!?!??! That doesnt make sense?!

There must be SOMETHING in their music that makes them appealing to the masses. I dont like pop, but i know WHY people like it. I dont like Sludge metal, but i know WHY others do.

Ones own personal tastes in music says absolutely nothing about the impact of home recording studios on the music business, you have to look at the bigger picture.

People are going to buy what they like, thats what music is about, They wouldnt go out and buy a car they didnt like would they? Or should they not buy a car you dont like even though they do?

Having strong opinions and tastes is one thing, enforcing them on others and justifying change in an industry with them is another thing completely.

dav nagle

The big studios record music just as **** at the best of times, may sound better sonically and the band they are recording may be real tight and highly established but its just as **** as anyone else's at the end of the day. For example a small studio could record Damian Rice's music very well. A large studio could record his music sonically better but the artist is what makes the song and the production is just the cherry on top. The small studios are as important and vital to the integral creation of music as the big studios. People have to start somewhere. When they establish themselves they move to the large studios and spend the big bucks and get the big production, still doesn't change the songs though.

sei046

But surely we can all understand here how every form of music, nomatter how terrible we think it is has its selling points. I am not mad into pop, anything heavier than pantera (some exceptions) and dance etc but I can see how they are their own genre with styles and how they might appeal. Saying something is ****e doesnt really say much as our opinions are but a few in the millions of others.

jtsuited

tbh a lot of the stuff that is done in posh expensive studios now is a absolute rubbish production-wise.
Timbaland's album is just an absolute mess of basic synth and drum machine presets, smashed to bejaysus at mastering, and with a load of hired-gun vocalists who happen to be famous.

If he had done it in his bedroom it would definitely not sound significantly worse.
But he did it with some of the biggest engineers in the most expensive studios on a huge budget.

Which goes to prove????
**** is **** no matter how much money is put behind it.

And the opposite is true.
Damien Rice's O was done on a portable multitrack recorder that most of us here would laugh at (and maybe rightly so with the options available to us nowadays).

If someone came on saying that 'hey i want to do an album and I've seen this cheap portable doolally on thomann, what ye think?' etc., we'd be saying 'no chance mate, the sound'll be rubbish'.

But his album would go on to sell more than pretty much any other Irish album (excepting U2 and er, enya) ever.

Which goes to prove???
Good is Good no matter how much money is put behind it.


Now while I agree that your average standard of recording has gone down in the past few years, I don't think any bands who are great have been ruined by it.

I keep hearing from a lot of people the argument that with 20 times the amount of music coming out, the amount of good music coming out is not even twice as much.

Well, maybe it's the fact that you're listening to a genre of music that has finally stagnated to the point that reinventing the wheel for the 34,000th time just doesn't sound good anymore?

I don't want to come across all 'guitar music is dead, get your synthesizers on!' but in the past three or so years I genuinely could not understand why people listen to guitar music anymore. And for precisely the reasons everyone is outlining here.

So let's all listen to atonal minimal techno then. At least it's fun!:pac:

sei046

I sort of agree with what your saying. I dont think its a genre thing TBH.
I think only good can come of it, if the songs arent up to scratch they arent going to go on to do very well. It doesnt matter if i think a particular song is rubbish because im sure many others will love it.

So, in a nutshell, IT DOESNT MATTER! home recording wont release any more ****e that will go on to do well, but it MIGHT give some of the good stuff a better chance at getting heard and possibly go on to sell millions

studiorat

jtsuited wrote: »

I don't want to come across all 'guitar music is dead, get your synthesizers on!' but in the past three or so years I genuinely could not understand why people listen to guitar music anymore. And for precisely the reasons everyone is outlining here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-mxBDuRaZ8

PaulBrewer

sei046 wrote: »

But?!?!??! That doesnt make sense?!

There must be SOMETHING in their music that makes them appealing to the masses. I dont like pop, but i know WHY people like it. I dont like Sludge metal, but i know WHY others do.

Ones own personal tastes in music says absolutely nothing about the impact of home recording studios on the music business, you have to look at the bigger picture.

People are going to buy what they like, thats what music is about, They wouldnt go out and buy a car they didnt like would they? Or should they not buy a car you dont like even though they do?

Having strong opinions and tastes is one thing, enforcing them on others and justifying change in an industry with them is another thing completely.

Aye

sei046

studiorat wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-mxBDuRaZ8

Which one of us is going to tell them about The Smashing Pumpkins?

jtsuited

studiorat wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-mxBDuRaZ8

that band are genuinely exactly what you'd get if you crossed Sonic Youth, the Pumpkins and American Analog Set.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

And the bassist would definitely get it!

trackmixstudio

I find the availability of home recording gear is a big plus for me.
Bands can get their stuff ready for the studio and send me rough mixes via megaupload so I can comment and even produce the songs before we start tracking.

The other plus is where bands go out and buy a digi rack or whatever to do their own stuff to save money instead of going to a real studio. When they (quickly) realise that they can't get a drum sound or guitar sound or anything that sounds like a releasable product, they appreciate a proper studio and are willing to pay for it.

I only do band recordings so the dance/hiphop/ singer songwriter guys having home setups doesn't affect me at all.

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-mxBDuRaZ8

Brilliant! Love the tune and love the video..... I knew there was something going on in the Vid but what? Where did they get the Brady Bunch crowd too.
.... and yer man gets the girl too, I like a happy ending, me.

sei046

Its quite a catchy tune. Dunno if I could stick a whole album of it though!

indough

sei046 wrote: »

But?!?!??! That doesnt make sense?!

Of course it does

sei046 wrote: »

There must be SOMETHING in their music that makes them appealing to the masses. I dont like pop, but i know WHY people like it. I dont like Sludge metal, but i know WHY others do.

So what, there are plenty of things which are appealing to the masses which are complete crap to anyone who knows better, having an audience doesn't make anything any better than it actually is...we can't start qualifying music by how many listeners it has because thats just crazy, some of the best musicians i've ever heard are pretty much unknown to most people whilst complete crap can sell millions...

sei046 wrote: »

Ones own personal tastes in music says absolutely nothing about the impact of home recording studios on the music business, you have to look at the bigger picture.

It's got nothing to do with personal taste, did you still not check out my example?

sei046 wrote: »

People are going to buy what they like, thats what music is about, They wouldnt go out and buy a car they didnt like would they? Or should they not buy a car you dont like even though they do?

No, they can buy what they want but that doesn't stop it being ****, just like buying a crappy car might seem appealing to someone who knows sod all about cars whereas a mechanic or car enthusiast will be able to give you an educated opinion that you are buying a pile of ****e...your own uneducated opinion wouldn't stop them from being right

popular opinion only decides which music is popular, not which is good...

sei046 wrote: »

Having strong opinions and tastes is one thing, enforcing them on others and justifying change in an industry with them is another thing completely.

the change has been the rise of the home studio and the decline in standard of music, I thought i was doing the opposite to justifying it?

sei046

You cant compare car mechanics and music.

If a lad wants to play a G chord for five minutes and sing a g sharp note thats up to him. I will probably hate it and wouldnt rate it as what i would consider music but if there is someone else who is really into it then which one of us is right?

Rick Rubin is no more "Right" than you or me or our ma's on what is good music. Will he be sticking on any Daniel records? no. Will ours ma's be sticking on Blood sugar sex magik? No.

I probably have very similar tastes to yourself with music, but I think most people here will agree that music is an art and you cant classify any type of art as ****e. Art/Music is what it is to each individual person on a piece/song by piece/song basis.

studiorat

jtsuited wrote: »

And the bassist would definitely get it!

oh yeah!

Seziertisch

I think the problem is that a lot of home recordists don't appreciate how good it actually can get because they don't have contact to the gear (and not just recording gear). A mate of mine was telling me about this feedbacker plugin from Waves he had and how great it was on guitars. I plugged in the Les Paul, jumped on the Rat and brought it down for him.

This is something which is then reinforced by the fact that a lot of studio recordings that bands do (for a number of possible reasons both on the side of the band and the studio) are fairly underwhelming. A lot of times though, this is down to the bands studio time being up and the people working there ceasing to work as soon as they stop getting paid.

In a recent Tape Op interview John Keane (who wrote The Musician's Guide to Protools, and who produced REM's Out of Time) was asked what are the keys to maintaining a long term relationship with bands. He said a willingness to go the extra mile to make the record as good as it can get whether its in budget or not was one of them. Sadly, there seems to be few enough commercial studios/engineers/producers operating off this principle. It would probably mean spending more (unpaid) time at something in the short term, but in the long term it would be a good thing for business.

Personally (although I am not a pro) even when helping others out for free I have never given less that 100% trying to get it sounding as good as it can to the best of my abilities, and hopefully someday this will pay off for me. This principle of giving a bit more than what you have to is how people get ahead in all walks of life, and seems to be decisive in furthering any career, so why not one in music production.

If I was working in a studio, I wouldn't be letting anything I was responsible for out the door until it was sounding good. I know a lot of times you can only work with what you are given but even if it meant doing it at home in the evening after work. I wouldn't be just letting stuff off out into the big wide world which had my name associated with it and which was below par.

jtsuited

sei046 wrote: »

Rick Rubin is no more "Right" than you or me or our ma's on what is good music. Will he be sticking on any Daniel records? no. Will ours ma's be sticking on Blood sugar sex magik? No.

I probably have very similar tastes to yourself with music, but I think most people here will agree that music is an art and you cant classify any type of art as ****e. Art/Music is what it is to each individual person on a piece/song by piece/song basis.

I see what you're saying but I disagree.

Personal taste is one thing, but being able to differentiate between art that takes skill and talent, and made-purely-for-profit lowest common denominator intellectually rubbish art is not so subjective.

Yes it's subjective to a degree but you can't say that people like Shostakovich is on the same playing field as Daniel O donnell simply because different people have different opinions.

There is plenty of music I know is good music, but I don't particularly like. as in, I can appreciate the depth of talent needed to produce such music, it's just not what I'm into.

What you're trying to say here is that what is 'good' music is what anyone likes. That is simply not the case.

What if someone liked the sound of digital clipping, aliasing and jitter? Would that make those things 'good'?
No, all it would mean was that someone liked them.

There is some absolute **** music out there I think has it's charms. Anyone can do it, it takes feck all talent and it won't last past next monday in terms of longevity. But I know it's **** and I like it.

Thus proving there is a difference between people liking something and some sort of objective perspective on quality.

jtsuited

sei046 wrote: »

and wouldnt rate it as what i would consider music QUOTE]

Music is humanly organised sound (any ethnomusicologist can tell ya that)

You rating something as music is a pointless endeavour.

Akin to saying 'i don't rate a volkswagen golf as a car'. It'd be a bit silly of me to say so considering that volkswagen golfs are, by definition, cars.

tweeky

Seziertisch wrote: »

In a recent Tape Op interview John Keane (who wrote The Musician's Guide to Protools, and who produced REM's Out of Time) was asked what are the keys to maintaining a long term relationship with bands.

err, Scott Litt Produced that album, i think John Keane engineered some tracks and did the mix

tweeky

Seziertisch wrote: »

If I was working in a studio, I wouldn't be letting anything I was responsible for out the door until it was sounding good. I know a lot of times you can only work with what you are given but even if it meant doing it at home in the evening after work. I wouldn't be just letting stuff off out into the big wide world which had my name associated with it and which was below par.

Unfortunately in studio you work ultimately for the artist/client and sometimes they will dictate what sounds good or not. ie. you have a great mix with the gtrs chiming and the room on the kit kicking you in the teeth but the A&R/Artist/manager walks in and requests a drier "lofi" kit with exaggerated panning on the hats & toms less gtrs and the vocals with the delay louder than the dry sound! you may have a fight on your hands but if that is what they want to achieve you may have to bite your lip. It took me a long while to learn this. If you get 10 engineers to eq. a track you will always get different results and 10 punters all will pick a diff track as the one that sounds best.

Seziertisch

tweeky wrote: »

Unfortunately in studio you work ultimately for the artist/client and sometimes they will dictate what sounds good or not. ie. you have a great mix with the gtrs chiming and the room on the kit kicking you in the teeth but the A&R/Artist/manager walks in and requests a drier "lofi" kit with exaggerated panning on the hats & toms less gtrs and the vocals with the delay louder than the dry sound! you may have a fight on your hands but if that is what they want to achieve you may have to bite your lip. It took me a long while to learn this. If you get 10 engineers to eq. a track you will always get different results and 10 punters all will pick a diff track as the one that sounds best.

Obviously if a record label etc. are involved its a different thing, but in the case of home recordists saying "why would you go to a studio when all you get are mediocre results that aren't as good as can be done at home? See x, y and z as examples that prove my point" it isn't concerns relating to artistic decisions taken in the mixing but rather that just something doesn't sound particularly good. There is a difference between deciding for lo-fi or hi-fi drums, and the drums just sounding plain bad.

And also spot on on Scott Litt.

sei046

Jt,
But whats a good time? its all subjective surely?
Good and great are ways to describe how someone feels about something, Not what it is.

I definitely agree with the point you made about being able to see productions for the sake of money for what they are.

My definition of good music is well thought out and constructed with something in it to keep my interest and set it apart from the mass amount of pop that I can hear anywhere.

I consider that good.
Someone else might DESPISE Tool or Dream Theater or classical music because its given thought.

All im saying is if music has no appeal to anyone it wont get bought. If it gets bought it makes sense that SOMEONE likes it and must be good in someones eyes. Music moves in trends, our tastes move on even. Its all subjective

jtsuited

sei046 wrote: »

Jt,
But whats a good time? its all subjective surely?
Good and great are ways to describe how someone feels about something, Not what it is.

I definitely agree with the point you made about being able to see productions for the sake of money for what they are.

My definition of good music is well thought out and constructed with something in it to keep my interest and set it apart from the mass amount of pop that I can hear anywhere.

I consider that good.
Someone else might DESPISE Tool or Dream Theater or classical music because its given thought.

All im saying is if music has no appeal to anyone it wont get bought. If it gets bought it makes sense that SOMEONE likes it and must be good in someones eyes. Music moves in trends, our tastes move on even. Its all subjective

we're splitting hairs here so we probably shouldn't worry about it. all i'm pointing out is that is NOT all subjective and down to taste, trends, whatever.
while there is certainly a lot of subjectivity about all art, there is art that lasts and has real depth, and there is art that is entirely made for commercial purposes or purely as a vehicle for somebody's career.

I mean, I can see art that is thoughtful and has real intelligence behind it, as opposed to say, the cheeky girls.
Now that is not just down to taste. If you get me.
ah doesn't matter, we're splittin hairs here anyway.