Views on Range Rover L322

DF1

Any one here any experience on 3.0D Range Rovers.
'03 or '04 ones seem to be priced reasonably now.
Any experience of reliability and maintenance costs ?

Zonda999

Not too bad at all actually.Something like this looks quite appealing.Low mileage and from a main dealer for about 32000e.

Just remember, though, that it will be very expensive to run.Servicing will be pricey and i dont think you'd top 25mpg.Road tax also, will be about 1400e and Insurance wont be cheap either

E92

I've gone in one several times, and I can honestly say that I can't see what it does that well equipped Toyota Avensis doesn't. Okay it has a nicer interior, but you can buy an Avensis with a leather pack, and those are really plush inside in them.

The BMW sourced diesel makes a decent growl under load but it sounds like it is under load a lot of the time in the one I was in(it also used to change up rather lately), which means that the 174 bhp 3.0 diesel is underpowered. It's rather noisy too, which is quite surprising as a 530d with the same engine is remarkably hushed.

As for space "advantage", just buy a big estate car like a 530d Touring.

I can only see the point if you want to tell people that you've got a Range Rover. Otherwise I think it is a waste of space on our roads, and a 530d, or Merc E320CDI, A6 3.0 TDI etc would be comfier, cheaper to run, won't annoy the tree huggers, quieter, faster etc.

Zonda999

Ya, i'd find one of these much much more appealing too TBH

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Audi/A6/Avant-3.0tdi/1173852/

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/BMW/530/d-SE/1063207/(Alloys WAY too smal on that one, though:pac:)

unkel

Zonda999 wrote: »

this looks quite appealing.Low mileage and from a main dealer for about 32000e.

That's still a lot of money for an '03 Range Rover. It will suffer from some dramatic depreciation over the next 2 years

If I were buying a Range Rover, I'd spend less than half that and buy an '02 one with the BMW V8 petrol engine

E92

Zonda999 wrote: »

Ya, i'd find one of these much much more appealing too TBH

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Audi/A6/Avant-3.0tdi/1173852/

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/BMW/530/d-SE/1063207/ WAY too smal on that one, though:pac:)

Fixed the BMW link for you:D!

That 530d has no run flats, which are a million times better than the run flat tyres(it has 16 inch wheels, the ones with the bigger wheels have run flat tyres, so that is a massive advantage). That engine is well able to get a shift on when required, and a guy I know who had one of these got over 45 mpg from it on long runs without too much difficulty.

If the 520d is anything to go by, that 530d would be a fantastic car to own, now that I've figured out how to use iDrive, I don't see what the problem with it is!

Though the A6 I'm sure is a great car in its own right(it certainly looks better and has a more spacious and higher quality interior), but I'd be 99% certain it wouldn't have the driving dynamics of the BMw.

Zonda999

Actually, you were saying that the 3.0D engine in the Range-Rover produces just 174bhp!!A new 520d puts out more than that and thats 1 litre and 2 cylinders down FFS!!

TBH, i dont think i would ever see you going the audi in that choice!!!Doesnt the 5 series estate, though have that self levelling suspension as standard which compromises the handling??

L-M

Lol i would write it all out again but i have some of it covered here
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055371075

Prices are becoming very reasonable because they are slow seller at the moment. As i said in my posts in the above thread, get a Hse or higher spec.

I've a good bit of experience with RR's, haven driven a few too. They are fairly loud but have a bit of power. I wouldn't mind trying to answer any questions yo may have on them through pm or on this thread.

Mr.David

E92 wrote: »

I can honestly say that I can't see what it does that well equipped Toyota Avensis doesn't.

Really?! Have you tried driving up Big Red in your Avensis?! Come on, there is a big difference. Adopting that attitude we should all drive around in base spec Fiestas, I mean they do most things an Avensis does don't they?

Its an immense car. So capable in all areas. The BMW diesel is a good engine, of course it doesnt stand up to comparison with a 5yr newer engine.....how would it?! But it still moves the RR at a decent pace.

Mr.David

E92 wrote: »

the 174 bhp 3.0 diesel

184bhp

rebel.ranter

unkel wrote: »

That's still a lot of money for an '03 Range Rover. It will suffer from some dramatic depreciation over the next 2 years

If I were buying a Range Rover, I'd spend less than half that and buy an '02 one with the BMW V8 petrol engine

I was talking to a guy on the train a few weeks ago who bought a Vogue new in 2006 for approx. €120k. In May of this year he went in to trade in for a new one & they only offered him €60k for it as a trade in. He nearly fell out of his standing!
The sales man pointed to 4 other 2nd hand Vogues sitting on his forecourt & told him that they were not moving & he really didn't want another one to add to his static collection.

I have also heard that a lot of Range Rovers & the like that are on lease are being returned to the lease companies.

With this in mind I think you need to be negotiating a better price to soften the blow a bit.
Finally, one of the lads imported a 2000 4.0L petrol Vogue that cost him €9,000 all in, including ferry, flight, VRT, etc. I know it's the old model but it's the kind of value you are looking at once the jeep hits 8 years old.

NewApproach

I agree with the post which suggested buying the big petrol engined model.
Some would worry about fuel consumption etc, but they are a lot cheaper to buy than the diesels, and that difference will pay for a lot of fuel.
When it comes to sell it on, they will both be equally hard to shift!

Mr.David

Well I have had a L322 supercharged 4.2 for a week and averaged 12mpg. That was a mix of city driving and motorway driving. Admittedly though it was driven in a highly 'spirited' fashion, but you will struggle to get more than 17mpg out of it anyway. Thats hard to live with. And it emitts all the CO2s. Like millions of them!

RobAMerc

I love them - to look at, but having driven a couple I have to say, they really didn't do it for me at all. You really feel the altitude when you try corner and that engine is working hard all of the time just to keep up with traffic - and I found it quite noisy.

I dont know about the 4.4V8 - I imagine its a different of fish altogether.

I found the ride in the sport poor as they seem to have firmed up the suspension alot in order to stop the roll.

Lastly -I found the interior to have worn fairly poorly in all of them.

Mr.David

RobAMerc wrote: »

I found the ride in the sport poor as they seem to have firmed up the suspension alot in order to stop the roll.

Are you talking about the RR Sport? L320? The ride in the sport is class leading and is vastly better to that of the X5 or ML. This is fact not fiction. Unless you are running on 20"s its a sublime ride. Its one of the key selling points for the car!!

RobAMerc

Mr.David wrote: »

Are you talking about the RR Sport? L320? The ride in the sport is class leading and is vastly better to that of the X5 or ML. This is fact not fiction. Unless you are running on 20"s its a sublime ride. Its one of the key selling points for the car!!

Yea I am - I'm not sure how yours is 'fact' but mine is my opinion. Although you have a point, the one I drove had 20" odd wheels

Eoin

Zonda999 wrote: »

Actually, you were saying that the 3.0D engine in the Range-Rover produces just 174bhp!!A new 520d puts out more than that and thats 1 litre and 2 cylinders down FFS!!

Is the torque not a much more important figure to consider in a big vehicle like this?

E92

Mr.David wrote: »

Really?! Have you tried driving up Big Red in your Avensis?! Come on, there is a big difference. Adopting that attitude we should all drive around in base spec Fiestas, I mean they do most things an Avensis does don't they?

Its an immense car. So capable in all areas. The BMW diesel is a good engine, of course it doesnt stand up to comparison with a 5yr newer engine.....how would it?! But it still moves the RR at a decent pace.

I honestly can't see a big 2.2 tonne barge being better to drive than an Avensis(BMW derived it may be but BMW can't defy the laws of physics), which weighs a whole tonne less and the Avensis is nothing extraordinary to drive by any measure of means.

As for the get a Fiesta argument, well actually it is one of my favourite cars, it puts a big smile on my face because of its agility and sharp handling.

The advantages of a bigger car are the space, quietness, and comfort, and in those areas an Avensis is superior to a Fiesta, and I can honestly say that having had an Avensis in the family for 130k km, I'd rather go for a long journey in an Avensis than in a RR.

What a Range Rover is better at is that you can tell your mates "I have a Range Rover" and it sounds impressive, i.e. it has a better badge, and the off roading and towing capability, but since even Land Rover admits that 90+% of buyers never use their vehicles' capabilities, that really isn't an advantage at all. The lofty driving position is undoubtedly an advantage to some people, but that reminds me of a bus rather than a car. I like cars to have a low and hence sporty driving position. It does have a lovely interior but so does an Avensis with leather upolstery.

Btw the 3.0 TD6 has 174 bhp, BMW detuned the engine for the Range Rover, they also did the same with the 4.4 V8, which is why it has 282 bhp in the Range Rover and 286 bhp in the 540i, 740i, and X5 4.4i;). The TD6 is loud(oh yes it is, as in VAG 1.9 TDI loud), and I know I haven't driven one, but I have gone in one with only 5,000 km on the clock, so it should be well loosened up by that stage, and we weren't going particularly fast and I could see the rev counter going beyond 3,500 rpm on a regular basis before it would change up gear. Now I know from other diesel autos that they change up much earlier, like at around 2,500 rpm, or maybe even 2,000 rpm under normal driving depending on the car, so to me that means that it is underpowered if it has to work that hard in everyday situations.

Zonda999

eoin_s wrote: »

Is the torque not a much more important figure to consider in a big vehicle like this?

Absolutely but you need more power to produce more torque.It was widely agreed that the RR was underpowered until they put the TDV8 in it.Even for a couple of years, the diesel engine in the Disco 3( 2.7TDV6) was superior to the TD6 in the RR

E92

Zonda999 wrote: »

Absolutely but you need more power to produce more torque.

Exactly, and the 174 bhp TD6 has 288 lb ft rather than the 258 lb ft that the latest 177 bhp 520d has. Not to mention the fact that it has 6 cylinder refinement and a better noise too.

Mr.David

RobAMerc wrote: »

Yea I am - I'm not sure how yours is 'fact' but mine is my opinion. Although you have a point, the one I drove had 20" odd wheels

Obviously 20"s will harshen the ride. Customers that prioritise ride comfort dont get 20"s, customers that prioritise style do.

I consider it fact because of data obtained to measure attributes such as steering wheel vibration, floorpan vibration, oscillation curves during and after driving over rutted roads, damping response curves etc etc etc.

Admittedly I do work for JLR so can be considered biased, but the ride quality of an L320 is vastly superior to that of an X5 which is considered by most to be the class leading soft-roader. Thats what the data implies anyway.....

Not saying its a perfect car, far from it, but if asked what its best attributes were, ride comfort would be near the top imho!!

Mr.David

E92 wrote: »

I honestly can't see a big 2.2 tonne barge being better to drive than an Avensis...........................


The advantages of a bigger car are the space, quietness, and comfort, and in those areas an Avensis is superior to a Fiesta, and I can honestly say that having had an Avensis in the family for 130k km, I'd rather go for a long journey in an Avensis than in a RR.

What a Range Rover is better at is that you can tell your mates "I have a Range Rover" and it sounds impressive, i.e. it has a better badge, and the off roading and towing capability, but since even Land Rover admits that 90+% of buyers never use their vehicles' capabilities, that really isn't an advantage at all. The lofty driving position is undoubtedly an advantage to some people, but that reminds me of a bus rather than a car. I like cars to have a low and hence sporty driving position. It does have a lovely interior but so does an Avensis with leather upolstery.

Btw the 3.0 TD6 has 174 bhp, BMW detuned the engine for the Range Rover, they also did the same with the 4.4 V8, which is why it has 282 bhp in the Range Rover and 286 bhp in the 540i, 740i, and X5 4.4i;). The TD6 is loud(oh yes it is, as in VAG 1.9 TDI loud), and I know I haven't driven one, but I have gone in one with only 5,000 km on the clock, so it should be well loosened up by that stage, and we weren't going particularly fast and I could see the rev counter going beyond 3,500 rpm on a regular basis before it would change up gear. Now I know from other diesel autos that they change up much earlier, like at around 2,500 rpm, or maybe even 2,000 rpm under normal driving depending on the car, so to me that means that it is underpowered if it has to work that hard in everyday situations.

Firstly, you need to define what is meant by "better to drive" as obviously there are so many angles on this. I think for the purpose of the debate (and what you wrote above) better to drive means more relaxing, more refined etc. A RR is vastly superior to an Avensis in this regard. Obviously it wont handle as well around the twisties, but you dont buy one to attack B roads on a quiet Sunday night do you? Not that the Avensis is exactly a riot either!


Next you say

The advantages of a bigger car are the space, quietness, and comfort, and in those areas an Avensis is superior to a Fiesta

I agree. The exact same argument applies to Avensis vs RR, the RR is roomier, more luxurious, comfortable etc. Why exactly would you rather go for a journey in an Avensis that a RR?!

I too prefer cars with a low driving position and would not buy a RR myself. But that is somewhat irrelevant. You cannot criticise a RR for this, its designed to have one! Personal preference cannot enter into the debate of which is better.

Regarding the interior, they are completely beyond comparison. The RR interior is a really nice place to spend time (although it is starting to date now I admit), but an Avensis interior? Its a great car, but surely the interior is one of the worst things about it? Its really really really boring and plasticky and not a nice place to spend time in at all. How you possibly prefer the Avensis interior to the RR is beyond me altogether.

I stand corrected on the bhp of the diesel engine, but as subsequently mentioned torque is king for this type of vehicle. Furthermore its not a sportscar, 0-60 etc is of little relevance really. You can cruise on the motorway upto speeds of about 110mph before the noise is intrusive and thats what counts. If speed and performance matter, get the 3.6 diesel or the petrol.

biggus

Too Heavy ...Too Heavy.... Too Heavy

An RR weights at least 2570 kg kerb or put it another way Three ton with four adults aboard.
They feel too much like a truck to me, trying to defy the laws of Phyics,Ponderous acceleratiion, braking, turning and too much inertia to get going and too much momentum to stop easily.

That Six cyl diesel can't cope with all that weight and reminds me of a CVT car whining under constant load all the time. The V8 diesel overcomes some of the inertia but there still too bloody heavy end of story.
This link puts an RR V8 at gross weight of 3200kg
http://www.carpages.co.uk/guide/land-rover/land-rover-range-rover-tdv8-vogue-se.asp

Mr.David

biggus wrote: »

Too Heavy ...Too Heavy.... Too Heavy

An RR weights at least 2570 kg kerb or put it another way Three ton with four adults aboard.

4 adult elephants?

copacetic

surprise people are so against the RR, especially saying they are only a 'badge' from the very people who have that thrown against the brands they champion all the time!

They are a very overpriced but practical car. As good as a van with the seats down but still the upmarket image etc that most people like. The loadspace on them is a lot more practical and useful than your average estate car.

Would say 06 sports will be going for 40k on carzone soon, they will be reasonable value at that price imo

L-M

copacetic wrote: »

Would say 06 sports will be going for 40k on carzone soon, they will be reasonable value at that price imo

Oh i hope not, i very much hope not.

The Range Rover is loud, has alot of roll and all ye're arguements against it, but if there ever was a time to be buying one, now is the time.

copacetic

Limerick-man wrote: »

Oh i hope not, i very much hope not.

The Range Rover is loud, has alot of roll and all ye're arguements against it, but if there ever was a time to be buying one, now is the time.

why?

'now' is seldom the time when the market has collapsed and there is no sign of an upturn. Anyone paying say 50k for an 06, couldn't give it away as soon as it is driven off the forecourt, so why would they pay the cash?

saw an 07 which says it is 21% off for sept, at 55k earlier (the usual cash only, special offer stuff that'll be gone in a hurry if it doesn't sell) and there are plenty of 06s for 50k which won't sell.

It's not just range rover, there are hundreds of overpriced x5s, xc90s and of course 520ds etc on carzone, all not selling and gradually coming down in price. They are all getting older sitting on the forecourts, eventually dealers will either have to take the loss or just watch them depreciate massively week to week in the hope that someone comes along who doesn't know what is happening.

L-M

copacetic wrote: »

why?

'now' is seldom the time when the market has collapsed and there is no sign of an upturn. Anyone paying say 50k for an 06, couldn't give it away as soon as it is driven off the forecourt, so why would they pay the cash?

saw an 07 which says it is 21% off for sept, at 55k earlier (the usual cash only, special offer stuff that'll be gone in a hurry if it doesn't sell) and there are plenty of 06s for 50k which won't sell.

It's not just range rover, there are hundreds of overpriced x5s, xc90s and of course 520ds etc on carzone, all not selling and gradually coming down in price. They are all getting older sitting on the forecourts, eventually dealers will either have to take the loss or just watch them depreciate massively week to week in the hope that someone comes along who doesn't know what is happening.

Why i said now is the time to buy is because they aren't selling, people will be willing to move on prices. A 03/04 that was a 100k new can be bought for very handy money.

copacetic

true enough. thats really what I meant on the 06s, if a car is 50k on carzone they are actual value of around 40k imo. There seems to have been a shift in the last month with some dealers (across all brands) finally breaking ranks and starting to offer actual prices on carzone and the other sites. There was quite an effort to keep prices up to stop the impression of falling values, but I guess in the end cashflow is required. I'd expect it to get a lot worse (for the market), before it gets better.

For instance imo anyone looking would be nuts to buy in the next 6 weeks until we see what happens in the budget. I can see changes to vrt bands and raising of the actual tax levels as well as a possible backdating of higher tax on high emission cars.

Thats another 6 weeks of no action for dealers.

L-M

copacetic wrote: »

true enough. thats really what I meant on the 06s, if a car is 50k on carzone they are actual value of around 40k imo. There seems to have been a shift in the last month with some dealers (across all brands) finally breaking ranks and starting to offer actual prices on carzone and the other sites. There was quite an effort to keep prices up to stop the impression of falling values, but I guess in the end cashflow is required. I'd expect it to get a lot worse (for the market), before it gets better.

For instance imo anyone looking would be nuts to buy in the next 6 weeks until we see what happens in the budget. I can see changes to vrt bands and raising of the actual tax levels as well as a possible backdating of higher tax on high emission cars.

Thats another 6 weeks of no action for dealers.

All true, but what baffles me the most is the complete variation of prices for Rnage rovers and the likes on car. Like just looking there now, in 03 there are two 4.4v8's, one 20k cheaper than the other. I know the one for 50k has been there while, but it's just an example.

copacetic

Limerick-man wrote: »

All true, but what baffles me the most is the complete variation of prices for Rnage rovers and the likes on car. Like just looking there now, in 03 there are two 4.4v8's, one 20k cheaper than the other. I know the one for 50k has been there while, but it's just an example.

You see similar isues with BMW, certain garages in particular seem to leave them on carzone say at ~ 10-15k more than every other place. Maybe they think it is some kind of tactic to give a big discount if someone is interested, but doubt it ever works.

biggus

Limerick-man
A 03/04 that was a 100k new can be bought for very handy money. Today 18:13

An 07 V8 diesel that was 137k new can also be bought for very handy money

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Land-Rover/Range-Rover/REDUCED/1067524/

50 k by november ?

L-M

copacetic wrote: »

You see similar isues with BMW, certain garages in particular seem to leave them on carzone say at ~ 10-15k more than every other place. Maybe they think it is some kind of tactic to give a big discount if someone is interested, but doubt it ever works.

Lol, i'm sure with those dealers they are the kinda people who can't face the fact that they are going to make a loss, leave the prices as is and wait for some fool to buy it off them.

Two years later, they'll still be there, becuase by the time they have brought down there prices, everyone else will have brought down there's, so they are always at the wrong end of things.

The market at the moment is crazy, it's very hard to price a fella for a 3 year change etc. when his vehicle has depriciated so much. What makes me laugh the most is this
http://frankhogan07.webzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=Car&carID=1065459&message=You%20searched%20for%3A%20Land%20Rover%20Range%20Rover%2C%20Dealer%3A%20Frank%20Hogan.%20Your%20search%20returned%20one%20vehicle%2C%20which%20is%20shown%20below.&CFID=82228376&CFTOKEN=15191210
It's around 140k new, this being one year old. What makes things worse, even with that depriciation, it still hasn't sold. It's there a good few weeks now. I thank god in these time's i'm only in the trade part time and for the summer months. Hopefully things will have settled down by this time next year.

L-M

biggus wrote: »

An 07 V8 diesel that was 137k new can also be bought for very handy money

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Land-Rover/Range-Rover/REDUCED/1067524/

50 k by november ?

Lol that's a Hse model that was 110K new, and 117K after the Vrt changes.

Edit: Lol the one i posted is your 137k new

biggus

Still 50k by november

L-M

biggus wrote: »

Still 50k by november

Hardly

copacetic

Limerick-man wrote: »

Lol, i'm sure with those dealers they are the kinda people who can't face the fact that they are going to make a loss, leave the prices as is and wait for some fool to buy it off them.

Two years later, they'll still be there, becuase by the time they have brought down there prices, everyone else will have brought down there's, so they are always at the wrong end of things.

The market at the moment is crazy, it's very hard to price a fella for a 3 year change etc. when his vehicle has depriciated so much. What makes me laugh the most is this
http://frankhogan07.webzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=Car&carID=1065459&message=You%20searched%20for%3A%20Land%20Rover%20Range%20Rover%2C%20Dealer%3A%20Frank%20Hogan.%20Your%20search%20returned%20one%20vehicle%2C%20which%20is%20shown%20below.&CFID=82228376&CFTOKEN=15191210
It's around 140k new, this being one year old. What makes things worse, even with that depriciation, it still hasn't sold. It's there a good few weeks now. I thank god in these time's i'm only in the trade part time and for the summer months. Hopefully things will have settled down by this time next year.

yep, would imagine it is a hard place to do business at the minute. I've had a few conversations with dealers over the last few weeks along these lines. I want to buy, I want to buy locally if possible, but I'm not going to drive off the forecourt losing 10-15k.

I have been looking in the 40-50k range, looking to bragain 10-15% off but no-one was willing to move. Imo in 2 months the cars currently 50-60k will be in my range, but sure we'll see.

Most people in my situation can much greater afford to wait than the dealers. Of course they are correct, as soon as they start to drop prices everyone will look for even more off, but that is business.

L-M

copacetic wrote: »

Most people in my situation can much greater afford to wait than the dealers. Of course they are correct, as soon as they start to drop prices everyone will look for even more off, but that is business.

Exaclty, so we'll hold to our prices, and then in a few months people can bargain what they like. It's a very tough game to be in at the moment. And they bigger manufacturer's that don't have small market cars, and have up market used cars are getting the biggest kick in the arse.

copacetic

Limerick-man wrote: »

Exaclty, so we'll hold to our prices, and then in a few months people can bargain what they like. It's a very tough game to be in at the moment. And they bigger manufacturer's that don't have small market cars, and have up market used cars are getting the biggest kick in the arse.

true, but another fly in their ointment is cancelled orders. One german dealer I was at just got 7 coupes in that were all cancelled orders. They now have to try and sell them along with the 4 second hand ones that they have priced at 5% less than the new ones!

It's tough alright but in this kind of market the customer always wins. They don't have to buy but the dealer does have to sell to survive.

L-M

copacetic wrote: »

true, but another fly in their ointment is cancelled orders. One german dealer I was at just got 7 coupes in that were all cancelled orders. They now have to try and sell them along with the 4 second hand ones that they have priced at 5% less than the new ones!

It's tough alright but in this kind of market the customer always wins. They don't have to buy but the dealer does have to sell to survive.

True, or the dealer can be stubborn and up the price of their servicing lol.

Cancelled orders would be a tough one but i'm srue if it was something up market there would of been a non refundable deposit paid, something of relevance that in cases like this the dealer as some leg to stand on.

DF1

I posted this thread for information on Range Rover.
I have little interest in alternatives and am not buying for the status, afterall I currently drive a defender, not exactly a fashion icon.
Are the leectrical problems serious ?
It kinda suits me that RR's are starting to become unpopular as it will make buying a s/h model easier and alot better choice.
The yummy mummies on the school run dont find it trendy anymore to turn up with johnny in the back. Suits me fine.
I need something that can travel on roughish ground also travel round 100 km per day.
Is there anything in particular I should look out for ?

In no hurry, Id say they will loose more value by christmas with the "recession".

DF1

Limerick Man,
Just saw your reply to similar topic on 4x4 forum.
Sorry for duplication.

L-M

DF1 wrote: »

Limerick Man,
Just saw your reply to similar topic on 4x4 forum.
Sorry for duplication.

Lol your grand, i was only just showing you instead of me writing it out again.:D