Punching...vertical or horizontal?

tallaght01

I learned to punch training in boxing and kenpo. I punch instintively by twisting on impact. I presume most of you know exactly what i'm talking about.

In krav maga, there's a totally different way of punching. It's a kind of vertical punch. There's no twisting on impact. The little finger side of your hand stays facing downwards.

I like it. It's quick. It doesn't telegraph well. It's difficult to change habits in such a basic combative as punching, but I've done it.

I know it's a pretty basic-level thread to start, but the basic combatives are important, and I'm curious to hear others' opinions on the different ways to punch.

I've also started using a lot more palm shots for head shots. Much kinder on the hand.

Any thoughts? Does it matter how you hit as long as you hit hard?

mark.leonard

Turning the hand to palm downwards rotates the arm (obviously) which lifts the shoulder providing more protection for your chin.
I find it impossible to punch with my full body weight with vertical punches, but that is probably more to do with practice maybe.

tallaght01

mark.leonard wrote: »

Turning the hand to palm downwards rotates the arm (obviously) which lifts the shoulder providing more protection for your chin.
I find it impossible to punch with my full body weight with vertical punches, but that is probably more to do with practice maybe.

Good point. With the vertical punch you have to drop your chin a bit. Takes a bit of getting used to. I also found it difficult to get good power with the vertical initially, but now it's fine.

jim o doom

Im in kenpo myself (green belt working onwards)- our top instructor tells us that you use a reverse punch for added power as long as you are punching below your own shoulder line, because you get rotational torque.. the muscles in your arm twisting in concert with everything else.. we use the vertical punch only if you are punching above the shoulder line, or into the floating ribs to drive out the lungs oxygen..
when punching above the shoulder line theres a chance (in a street fight, not competition where you would probably have your wrists bound after some fashion) that if u use a reverse punch you could well break ur wrist because of the angle of attack.. its supposed to be much less likely with the vertical punch, because of your wrists dynamics

jim o doom

a second point; I'd agree with your final point that it doesn't really matter as long as you hit hard - myself I would also be inclined to use a palm shot.
The point I'm making the second time round is that (once again) according to our top guy (7th dan black belt) - the most powerful punch throwable as a standard is the reverse punch, that 'twist' you give on impact utilises extra muscles in your arm hence extra power - if u don't twist, fewer muscles come in to play so there can't be as much power. This is all really academic for me, because whilst I can throw a good punch, it's not the same as someone like our top dude who has 30 + years experience under their belt and really understands their body mechanics, but I can absorb & understand the information )

tallaght01

jim o doom wrote: »

a second point; I'd agree with your final point that it doesn't really matter as long as you hit hard - myself I would also be inclined to use a palm shot.
The point I'm making the second time round is that (once again) according to our top guy (7th dan black belt) - the most powerful punch throwable as a standard is the reverse punch, that 'twist' you give on impact utilises extra muscles in your arm hence extra power - if u don't twist, fewer muscles come in to play so there can't be as much power. This is all really academic for me, because whilst I can throw a good punch, it's not the same as someone like our top dude who has 30 + years experience under their belt and really understands their body mechanics, but I can absorb & understand the information )

I don;t know how true the point is about power. But is it a trade off between power and speed/easiness to telgraph?

Colm_OReilly

As far as I can tell, boxers, the people who rely on punching power the most, and therefore are most likely to have the most efficient/effective technique, punch with their thumb down-knuckles up on impact, for essentially every punch. But my knowledge on striking is limited.

As for the rotation adding more power I can't quite get my head around how a rotational force is transfered into a horizontal force, but I'm not firing on all cylinders today so I can't reason through it.

jim o doom

we don't really get it as a power or speed scenario, its more use whats appropriate to the situation - if we punch over the shoulder line its always a vertical punch, for the sake of your wrist.
when a wrist gets damaged or injure its generall because it has bent either back (knuckles towards top of forearm) or down (knuckles towards wrist) - when punching vertically, this doesn't really happen as the wrist mechanics are wrong for it to occur.
Kenpo is fairly speed based art & for quick strikes it would be a leading straight or a backfist but for the powerful strikes we'd always rely on the reverse punch (again as long as its lower than your own shoulder line).
Isnt the "famed" one inch punch a reverse punch? I can't really see how the vertical one would be faster tbh.. but I could be seriously wrong on that front
If it is faster, I would imagine it would be a negligible amount of speed in the difference..

jim o doom

colm - I don't really understand the mechanics of it myself, I only have the information from our sifu; he's in his late 50's early 60's is quite short, and as far as I can tell has the hardest punch of any person I have ever met, he says the greatest power in a punch comes from a collection of things:- exhaling (the inner power - blah), rotational torque, so thats not just your arm turning from thump up to thumb down but the hip and whole side of that body moving forwad (leg included) - which brings a whole lotta muscle into play, plus dropping your weight into the ground brings gravity in as well.
I have some of it working but I reckon it will be a long time if ever that I can hit like that man can.
ive never been so scared of a small dude in my whole life and its great cause he's bang on

tallaght01

The vertical punch should be faster, as the elbow doesn't have to go out, I think. BUt it can't be that much in the difference. I think the main difference is in the way taht the vertical punch is a bit less easy to anticipate.

I think the comparison with boxing is problematic depending on your style. With big gloves on, you can probably afford not to hit with your first 2 knuckles. That's not the case in a self-defence scenario I guess.

I don't know if I just knew crap boxers, but you could always tell a boxer who's been in a street fight, in my experience. Because their knuckles are destroyed.

ryoishin

I keep my hand vertical for hooks.

Bas Rutten does nt believe in twisting your wrists. Ill find the link when I get home cant get on the site in work.

Nothingcompares

I think I asked a similar question a couple of years ago on this forum. I found that basically Karate people use the "vertical" and the boxers use the "horizontal".

For me I naturally turn my hand for a closed fist punch. Straights and hooks but 100% on straights. I think I do this because I always do this because I aim to have my elbow higher than my fist on point of impact, I want my hook to kinda go up and around my opponent.

Karate people have told me that an advantage to the vertical position is that if the shot is blocked by the shoulder or guard there is more surface to make some kind of contact. The vertical style is more likely to bounce and keep going.

But having said that, if I wanted technical advice on a punch you'd ask people who's bread and butter is punching - boxing. All boxers I've asked turn their hand in the motion of the punch.

For the open fist punch, slapping etc. It's always a vertical position and I always hook while slapping. I suppose if I had to punch straight with a slap it would be horizontal, cause you can't do it the other way.

I think somebody told me that you're much much less likely to break bones in your hand punching in the vertical style...

Here.s the thread here. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055000340

jim o doom

Well I'm in kenpo (which is style of karate) and we use the boxer style punch for nearly all over our power strikes (thumb/palm face up turning to face down). I dont know if its a good example - but the twist occurs on the point of impact - dont know how the twisting motion in the arm generates power. its probably because ur arm isnt fully straightened at the point u twist, so all the "twist" muscle would assist in straightening the arm as it is twisting whilst straightening..
with a hook the fist would also be palm down (with no twist from palm up) because we can turn the hook punch into slashing elbow easily with the arm in that manner to begin with..
we only use the "thumb straight up" punch above the shoulder line to not hurt the wrist because we have no wrist bindings to hold the wrist solidly.

mark.leonard

tallaght01 wrote: »

Good point. With the vertical punch you have to drop your chin a bit. Takes a bit of getting used to. I also found it difficult to get good power with the vertical initially, but now it's fine.

As far as I am aware you should always drop your chin when you are punching.

Charlie3dan

I wouldn't think that it has to be one or the other.They're two different punches with different emphasis and uses.

In general,
The horizontal hand position is better for longer distance punching and is more powerful at full extension.

Again in general,
The vertical punch is better in shorter range and to certain targets on the body. That's not to say that the vertical punch can't be extended, but that it is more effective at the shorter range. It doesn't lend itself as easily to transfering bodyweight. (which mark mentioned)

You could make similar comparrisions with kicking and contact points ie; the shin, the instep, the ball of the foot, the heel etc.

Martin25

In Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do we punch with a vertical or 45 degree punch.
its much less telegraphic and with the elbows in and down it protects the ribs, its delivered from a small bent knee stance with the power side forward.
Theres a lot more regarding the idea of non telegraphic and non intention but you would need to come and train with us to get it.
www.jkdireland.com