career change?!

wonderer?! · 31-08-2008 4:53pm #1

hi im a 27yr old commerce graduate who has been working in the construction sector for the past four years, im sure everyone is aware of recent collapse in this area and subsequent job losses following,
what i would like to know is as someone who has always been interested in law and as some one who has no dependents and money behind me so that a year back studying would be a viable option, im wondering if it is
a) possible? and b) advisable? to attempt all 8 fe1 exams in one sitting? and what would be best route of attempting this? i.e. in conjunction with what course? griffith, potobello or independent colleges? i realise how difficult they are but while doing a course and treating studying as a full time job is this do-able?! all replies will be greatfully appreciated, the more brutally honest the better, thanks in advance of replies!

McCrack · 31-08-2008 5:39pm

I wouldnt advise that you sit all eight in one go. There is no point doing them all at once. It would be putting an enormous amount of pressure on yourself. This and the fact you are a commerce grad. would be just crazy in my opinion. I mean PPC is only held in September of each year and the entrance exams are held twice a year so split them 4 and 4.

I would also say to you consider doing the graduate Diploma in law in DIT which will give you an excellant grounding in the law and prepare you for the sittings. Do not under-estimate what you will be taking on here. If you have the right attitude, interest and committment you will pass them but they do require quite a lot of preparation and personal sacrifice.

I used Griffith classes myself and I found them very helpful but at the end of the day you need to put the study in. I would recommend a prep course whether Griffith or elsewhere.

Also consider the fact that traineeships can be difficult to secure and the fact you will be working for peanuts for a couple of years. I mean you will be 28 or 29 by the time you get apprenticed (all going well) and you will be earning less than your peers and young people straight out of school in other jobs. This may not bother you however.

I'm not trying to discourage you but just trying to set out some other considerations. It'a slog but the thing is if you're committed you will get there and you will find as you make progress along the qualification path your esteem will be hightened and you will not want to turn back.

Good luck.

dazza21ie · 31-08-2008 5:44pm

It is possible to sit all 8 exams in one sitting. Whether it is advisable is a different thing. I personally tried it (although coming from a law degree) and got 6 out of 8. I done the Griffith correspondence course which gives you an idea of the standard needed to pass the exams. It will take alot of hard work and total dedication if you do all 8 in one go. I found doing 3 exams in one week was the hardest part. Once you have one exam done you have to immediately put the books away and get ready for the next one and by the time the third exam comes you are physically and mentally exhausted.

Unless you have a particular reason as to why you want to do them all in one go (e.g. try and start blackhall 2009 or only want to take certain time out of work) i wouldn't recommend putting yourself through that. It would be much easier to do six spaced out and getting the other two in a subsequent sitting.

Before you put the huge investment of money and time into this perhaps you should have a read of other threads regarding the exams etc. The legal profession is currently struggling with the numbers coming through and the slow down in the economy. Quite a few have passed the entrance exams and cannot get an apprenticeship anywhere. Those of us who have got through all our exams and done our apprenticeship are worrying whether we will have a job after qualifying. Without trying to talk you out of it the profession really is survival of the fitest

nuac · 31-08-2008 6:30pm

As already advised you should try to secure a training contract before committing yourself.

You should try to get some work experience in a solicitors office, even at low or no pay to find out a little of what is involved. It is not an easy profession.

elgransenor · 31-08-2008 6:53pm

wonderer?! wrote: »

hi im a 27yr old commerce graduate who has been working in the construction sector for the past four years, im sure everyone is aware of recent collapse in this area and subsequent job losses following,
what i would like to know is as someone who has always been interested in law and as some one who has no dependents and money behind me so that a year back studying would be a viable option, im wondering if it is
a) possible? and b) advisable? to attempt all 8 fe1 exams in one sitting? and what would be best route of attempting this? i.e. in conjunction with what course? griffith, potobello or independent colleges? i realise how difficult they are but while doing a course and treating studying as a full time job is this do-able?! all replies will be greatfully appreciated, the more brutally honest the better, thanks in advance of replies!

I am a 45 year old Commerce graduate and sat all 8 last Sept. and passed them; I am going to Blackhall for PPC1 week after next.
I had not sat an exam since 1983 when I graduated with B.Comm.
I too was a refugee from the construction industry having spent 17 years in retailing.
I studied very hard from May to Sept but that was 14 weeks so yes they are very doable but you must really want it as I did.
Good luck if you do and ignore the naysayers and people who look at you with condesension when you tell people you are doing 8....I stopped telling people after a while but I am very happy in the legal industry having spent last 6 months as an apprentice.

bills · 31-08-2008 8:00pm

I think it is possible ofcourse & plenty of people have done it but the majority wont have. They are pretty tough exams and you would definetely need to do a course such as griffith etc.. It took me a few sittings to get mine. As others have already said there is huge demand for trainee solicitor positions and just no way near enough jobs available.
Thats no exaggeration. I would definetely consider getting some work experience in an office & talking to some trainee solicitors so you know what your getting yourself into. Its tough to put in all that work & find yourself with no job.
Good luck

EC1000 · 01-09-2008 9:41am

I was in your position 14 months ago and am starting PPC1 next week - so anythings possible!

The exams are very passable - if you put the work in. I was another non Law graduate and I gave up full time work 2 months before my first sitting. I passed 4 and 4 over two sittings. A previous poster recommended doing the LLB as preparation - to be honest I dont see the point as like me, you are in your late twenties and why spend another year doing a course which is not necessary in order to pass the FE1s. If you attend Griffith or Independent you will get all the materials necessary and the rest is up to you.

Johnny Utah · 01-09-2008 2:52pm

wonderer?! wrote: »

hi im a 27yr old commerce graduate who has been working in the construction sector for the past four years, im sure everyone is aware of recent collapse in this area and subsequent job losses following,

Firstly, why do you want to change careers and go into law?

Personally, I think you're mad. The legal profession is going through a difficult time at the moment- there's too many people looking for the training contract, and even fully qualified solicitors being let go. There's very little job security in the legal profession (kinda like the construction industry) at the moment, so imho you're jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

Law is stressful and hard work. There's plenty of other careers which are far easier and offer more job security. I wish someone had offered me this advice before I started studying law.

hada · 01-09-2008 7:31pm

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Firstly, why do you want to change careers and go into law?

Personally, I think you're mad. The legal profession is going through a difficult time at the moment- there's too many people looking for the training contract, and even fully qualified solicitors being let go. There's very little job security in the legal profession (kinda like the construction industry) at the moment, so imho you're jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

Law is stressful and hard work. There's plenty of other careers which are far easier and offer more job security. I wish someone had offered me this advice before I started studying law.

Johnny you make valid points, but to the OP. For as many people that have the same approach as Johnny, there are the same amount who love what their doing (like me), so please don't let someone put you off just because they themselves aren't happy with the profession.

Law is challenging but rewarding. The way I see it is, if it's something you'll regret not doing in a few years when it's too late, then do it now, do it right and all you have to do is gain (gain by either realising law is for you, or gain by realising law isn't and you get on with your life.)

dats_right · 01-09-2008 8:11pm

Johnny Utah wrote: »

I think you're mad. The legal profession is going through a difficult time at the moment- there's too many people looking for the training contract, and even fully qualified solicitors being let go. There's very little job security in the legal profession (kinda like the construction industry) at the moment, so imho you're jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

Law is stressful and hard work. There's plenty of other careers which are far easier and offer more job security. I wish someone had offered me this advice before I started studying law.

As a fellow trainee, I agree 100% with these sentiments. It's not that I don't like my job, I do, but I can't understand why so many people are willing to go through so much to become solicitors, afterall it is only a job and not a very glamourous one at that. In my opinion there are undoubtedly far too many people offering the overly simplistic follow the dream type advice. OP read the many posts on this forum and don't rush into anything. Remember that there is an over-supply of lawyers at the moment, which is having a downward impact on wages and also more people are competing for fewer jobs.

nuac · 01-09-2008 8:51pm

Dats right is right imho. Law is a tough profession and getting tougher.

johnnyskeleton · 01-09-2008 8:55pm

hada wrote: »

For as many people that have the same approach as Johnny, there are the same amount who love what their doing (like me), so please don't let someone put you off just because they themselves aren't happy with the profession.

True, but don't forget that some people, while still loving their jobs, also love to bitch about how bad they have it.

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Personally, I think you're mad. The legal profession is going through a difficult time at the moment- there's too many people looking for the training contract, and even fully qualified solicitors being let go. There's very little job security in the legal profession (kinda like the construction industry) at the moment, so imho you're jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

Law is stressful and hard work. There's plenty of other careers which are far easier and offer more job security. I wish someone had offered me this advice before I started studying law.

Does that mean that you're giving up on becoming a solicitor then?

dats_right wrote: »

As a fellow trainee, I agree 100% with these sentiments. It's not that I don't like my job, I do, but I can't understand why so many people are willing to go through so much to become solicitors, afterall it is only a job and not a very glamourous one at that.

First of all ask yourself why do you do it, then it might make sense why other people feel the same way.

dats_right · 02-09-2008 6:14pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

First of all ask yourself why do you do it, then it might make sense why other people feel the same way.

No, I don't think it necessarily does. I studied law straight from school and more or less have been at it since. So I don't really know anything else, so the sacrifices in terms of doing so many exams, all of the study, difficulties obtaining an apprenticeship and the enormous financial sacrifices in terms of actual outlay and in particular forsaken possible earnings are nothing new to me and I've known them for as long as I can remember. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sometimes envious of my friends who studied other subjects in college, as they have been have been working in their careers far longer and have been steadily progressing and of course earn significantly more than me. Meaning that they have the shekels to pretty much do as they please, unfortunately, I'm not in that position and often find myself having to forsake trips away and nights out etc because of finances (or lack thereof).

I've worked very hard to get where I am and the closer I get to qualification the more I question what it all was for? The job market is bleak; long hours; enourmous and ever increasing responsiblities and pressure; all the while there has effectively been in real terms pay decreases as wages remain static; there is an over-supply of NQ's and apprentices and many more wannabe's lining up to swell the ranks further. It should also be remembered that the job of being a solicitor is comparable to other professions, yet you don't see many people saying that, 'I'm going to risk it all to follow my childhood dream of becoming a tax consultant!'. My point is that I firmly believe many people have childish and romantic notions of what the job of being a solicitor entails far detached from reality.

Yes, I like my job, but if the circumstances were different, would I give up a good career to become a solicitor, knowing all I know about the actual practice of a solicitor and all the sacrifices and risks involved? Definitely not! And I'd imagine many of my trainee colleagues would feel the same.

Amazotheamazing · 02-09-2008 6:23pm

dats_right wrote: »

No, I don't think it necessarily does. I studied law straight from school and more or less have been at it since. So I don't really know anything else, so the sacrifices in terms of doing so many exams, all of the study, difficulties obtaining an apprenticeship and the enormous financial sacrifices in terms of actual outlay and in particular forsaken possible earnings are nothing new to me and I've known them for as long as I can remember. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sometimes envious of my friends who studied other subjects in college, as they have been have been working in their careers far longer and have been steadily progressing and of course earn significantly more than me. Meaning that they have the shekels to pretty much do as they please, unfortunately I'm not in that position and often have to forsake trips away and nights out etc because of finances.

I've worked very hard to get where I am and the closer I get to qualification the more I question what it all was for? The job market is bleak; long hours; enourmous and ever increasing responsiblities and pressure; all the while there has effectively been in real terms pay decreases as wages remain static; there is an over-supply of NQ's and apprentices and many more wannabe's lining up to swell the ranks further. It should also be remembered that the job of being a solicitor is comparable to other professions, yet you don't see many people saying that, 'I'm going to risk it all to follow my childhood dream of becoming a tax consultant!'. My point is that I firmly believe many people have childish and romantic notions of what the job of being a solicitor entails far detached from reality.

Yes, I like my job, but would I give up a good career knowing all I know about the actual practice of a solicitor and all the sacrifices and risks involved? Definitely not! And I'd imagine many of my trainee colleagues would feel the same.

Agree, fairly much word for word.

The wages don't particularly bother me though, the likelihood of emigration for an extended period of time does a little though.

Johnny Utah · 03-09-2008 10:22am

hada wrote: »

Johnny you make valid points, but to the OP. For as many people that have the same approach as Johnny, there are the same amount who love what their doing (like me), so please don't let someone put you off just because they themselves aren't happy with the profession.

Woah, hold on a minute. Now, you're misinterpreting me. The truth is I actually love studying law, and hopefully I will be a solicitor in a few years.

The op asked for honest advice, and I was merely giving him an insight into the realities of qualification. It seems he wants to leave the construction industry because of the recent downturn and associated job losses, but the fact is the legal profession, especially for those about to qualify, is somewhat unstable at present too. If he's seriously looking for job security, he should look elsewhere.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

True, but don't forget that some people, while still loving their jobs, also love to bitch about how bad they have it.

:rolleyes: And, some people are living in the twilight zone.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Does that mean that you're giving up on becoming a solicitor then?

No, not yet; I'm too old to go back to college and start again, but if I haven't secured the training contract within 2 years, I will pursue something else.

I agree with datsright and amazo above. I knew the sacrifices involved when I set out studying law. I knew that I wouldn't earn much money in my 20s, it would be tough to obtain the apprenticeship, the long hours, the exams, etc. However, I don't think I realised exactly how tough it would be to go through the whole process of qualification, eg. competing with other people who have connections for an apprenticeship place. There's so many hoops to jump through I'm starting to ask myself is it worth it?

As said above, the wages don't bother me, but emmigration does.

I have friends outside law, who are already settled into their own careers. They have job security and are earning fairly decent money- and this is with a 3/4 year degree.

dazza21ie · 03-09-2008 12:04pm

Johnny Utah wrote: »

eg. competing with other people who have connections for an apprenticeship place. There's so many hoops to jump through I'm starting to ask myself is it worth it?

The vast majority of trainees currently going through the system are there on merit and not because of connections. Its unfortunate that you haven't got a training contract yet but this probably more to do with the huge competition for each training contract rather than peoples connections.

Sangre · 03-09-2008 12:10pm

Personally I'd worry less about passing the exams and more about trying to secure an apprenticeship.

johnnyskeleton · 03-09-2008 10:12pm

dats_right wrote:

No, I don't think it necessarily does. I studied law straight from school and more or less have been at it since. So I don't really know anything else, so the sacrifices in terms of doing so many exams, all of the study, difficulties obtaining an apprenticeship and the enormous financial sacrifices in terms of actual outlay and in particular forsaken possible earnings are nothing new to me and I've known them for as long as I can remember. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sometimes envious of my friends who studied other subjects in college, as they have been have been working in their careers far longer and have been steadily progressing and of course earn significantly more than me. Meaning that they have the shekels to pretty much do as they please, unfortunately, I'm not in that position and often find myself having to forsake trips away and nights out etc because of finances (or lack thereof).

I've worked very hard to get where I am and the closer I get to qualification the more I question what it all was for? The job market is bleak; long hours; enourmous and ever increasing responsiblities and pressure; all the while there has effectively been in real terms pay decreases as wages remain static; there is an over-supply of NQ's and apprentices and many more wannabe's lining up to swell the ranks further. It should also be remembered that the job of being a solicitor is comparable to other professions, yet you don't see many people saying that, 'I'm going to risk it all to follow my childhood dream of becoming a tax consultant!'. My point is that I firmly believe many people have childish and romantic notions of what the job of being a solicitor entails far detached from reality.

Yes, I like my job, but if the circumstances were different, would I give up a good career to become a solicitor, knowing all I know about the actual practice of a solicitor and all the sacrifices and risks involved? Definitely not! And I'd imagine many of my trainee colleagues would feel the same.

I think I understand very well why "so many people are willing to go through so much to become solicitors"; first, they study law in college and they don't really know anything else and the sacrifices are well known to them but they persevere anyway. Secondly they like their job and finally the fact that they are already so far in, they feel they may as well stay in. I would venture to suggest that your story is very similar to the majority of the people who want to become solicitors, with minor variants, and if you were prepared to go through with it, why can't you understand why like-minded people would do so too?

Johnny Utah wrote: »

:rolleyes: And, some people are living in the twilight zone.

What exactly is that supposed to mean? Grammar and roll eyes aside, oblique comments like that don't really add to the debate. Are you suggesting that what I said about people loving their jobs and also loving bitching about them is incorrect? If so, I think there are 3 very good examples on this thread of people who will talk about how bad things are in the solicitor's profession at the moment, but none of whom are prepared to give up on it or move to another profession. So I stand by what I said, and I further say that it is quite common to love your job and complain about it, especially in Ireland.

dats_right · 04-09-2008 9:27am

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I think I understand very well why "so many people are willing to go through so much to become solicitors"; first, they study law in college and they don't really know anything else and the sacrifices are well known to them but they persevere anyway. Secondly they like their job and finally the fact that they are already so far in, they feel they may as well stay in. I would venture to suggest that your story is very similar to the majority of the people who want to become solicitors, with minor variants, and if you were prepared to go through with it, why can't you understand why like-minded people would do so too?

Of course I understand why law graduates pursue careers in the profession. But, I had more in mind people in other careers, such as the OP, deciding to drop it all and pursue law as a career.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I think there are 3 very good examples on this thread of people who will talk about how bad things are in the solicitor's profession at the moment, but none of whom are prepared to give up on it or move to another profession. So I stand by what I said, and I further say that it is quite common to love your job and complain about it, especially in Ireland.

It is preposterous to suggest that because some of my colleagues and I express our legitimate concerns about certain aspects of the profession that we should give up or move to another profession. Of course we should voice our concerns and offer realistic advice based largely on facts and our experiences to prospective and wannabe entrants to the profession, in my opinion, it is however, wrong of others to give unrealistic advice based on fantasy or improbables.

johnnyskeleton · 04-09-2008 9:15pm

dats_right wrote: »

Of course I understand why law graduates pursue careers in the profession. But, I had more in mind people in other careers, such as the OP, deciding to drop it all and pursue law as a career.

That's fair enough, but I'm sure there is more to wanting to be a lawyer than the inertia of "well, I've done a law degree, I may as well become a lawyer". I would also ask you to recall why you studied law in the first place.

dats_right wrote: »

It is preposterous to suggest that because some of my colleagues and I express our legitimate concerns about certain aspects of the profession that we should give up or move to another profession. Of course we should voice our concerns and offer realistic advice based largely on facts and our experiences to prospective and wannabe entrants to the profession, in my opinion, it is however, wrong of others to give unrealistic advice based on fantasy or improbables.

I think you might have misunderstood me; re: bitching about the profession hada suggested that this was because people didn't like their jobs, but I pointed out that it is quite common to like your job and bitch about it, to which Johnny Utah made some obtuse comment. I think it is quite consistent for someone who enjoys their job to also be able to express discontent at certain aspects of it, because to criticise a part is not to criticise the whole. So I don't think there is any great difference there between what you and I have said. You may have mixed this up with my comments towards Johnny Utah. He suggests that someone would be mad to become a solicitor in this climate, but yet he is not giving up on becoming one. Therefore, he is either mad or has double standards; one for himself whereby it is perfectly reasonable to want to be a solicitor, and one for other people who should be discouraged from doing so. I do not impute any ulterior motive on his part, but I think the OP can read between the lines.

Also, if by "wrong of others to give unrealistic advice based on fantasy or improbables" you are referring to another thread where we discussed the future earning capacities of the other branch of the legal profession, you have yet to provide any proof that my views are incorrect, and in the absence of which I will not for a minute let you suggest that your views are legitimate and that mine are mere fantasy. If nothing else, just because I do not have the same bleak outlook as yourself does not mean that I am entitled to dismiss your argument out of hand, and I would ask you to offer me the same courtesy.

Johnny Utah · 05-09-2008 10:59am

dazza21ie wrote: »

The vast majority of trainees currently going through the system are there on merit and not because of connections. Its unfortunate that you haven't got a training contract yet but this probably more to do with the huge competition for each training contract rather than peoples connections.

Sorry, if I was unclear. My point was that there are a lot of hurdles to cross if you want to become a solicitor. Overcoming a lack of connections to secure a training contract is simply one of these hurdles. When I started studying law and had ambitions to become a solicitor, I knew well that family connections would secure a training contract. However, I was unaware at how much non-family connections would play a part in obtaining an apprenticeship place.

Perhaps I was naive and underestimated how tough the competition would be for a training place, although in my defence I began studying law in the years that the legal profession was booming. My earlier point was simply highlighting that prospective solicitors should not underestimate any of the challenges on the path to qualification. As you say yourself, there is huge competition for places at present, and this itself could be the pitfall that catches out a lot of law students coming through the system.

JohnnySkeleton:

My first post (post #8) in this thread was genuine, honest advice to the op. He asked for brutally honest advice on the prospects of qualification, and I gave it. There were some other posts in the thread which I did not agree with, but I didn't engage in slating them or slagging off other posters. I have worked hard to get this far, and I feel it is important to provide honest, realistic advice on my experience thus far.

Firstly, hada responded to my post, implying that I did not like my work. Fair enough, perhaps he misunderstood my intentions because he conceded that I had made some valid points.

However, you then chipped in with a smart comment, in reference to my first post, that some people love to bitch about how hard they have it. I don't care how many posts you have, that is the sort of idiotic comment that drags a thread way off-topic. Just because you don't agree with my view doesn't mean you have to get nasty.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I think you might have misunderstood me; re: bitching about the profession hada suggested that this was because people didn't like their jobs, but I pointed out that it is quite common to like your job and bitch about it, to which Johnny Utah made some obtuse comment. I think it is quite consistent for someone who enjoys their job to also be able to express discontent at certain aspects of it, because to criticise a part is not to criticise the whole. So I don't think there is any great difference there between what you and I have said. You may have mixed this up with my comments towards Johnny Utah.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

He suggests that someone would be mad to become a solicitor in this climate, but yet he is not giving up on becoming one. Therefore, he is either mad or has double standards; one for himself whereby it is perfectly reasonable to want to be a solicitor, and one for other people who should be discouraged from doing so. I do not impute any ulterior motive on his part, but I think the OP can read between the lines.

In post #15, I already explained why I am still pursuing qualification as a solicitor. I also stated that if I haven't secured the apprenticeship within two years, I will move on to something else. The future is very uncertain for people in my situation, and undoubtedly there will not be enough training contracts to satisfy demand. Therefore, some people who have passed all the fe1s will not be able to pursue the solicitor qualification.

I should also point out that I am in a different position to the op. I don't have a successful career to fall back on. If I want to pursue another avenue, then I have to go back to college and start at square one all over again. Not exactly a great option when you're in you're mid-twenties and want to have a bit of independence.

If I could go back in time and advise my 18-year-old self, I would tell him not to go into law. There are plenty of other careers which are far easier and offer better job security. Having said that, I like studying law and my grades are quite good, but that's little consolation if you can't secure a training contract.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Also, if by "wrong of others to give unrealistic advice based on fantasy or improbables" you are referring to another thread where we discussed the future earning capacities of the other branch of the legal profession, you have yet to provide any proof that my views are incorrect, and in the absence of which I will not for a minute let you suggest that your views are legitimate and that mine are mere fantasy. If nothing else, just because I do not have the same bleak outlook as yourself does not mean that I am entitled to dismiss your argument out of hand, and I would ask you to offer me the same courtesy.

Yes, I think it's wrong and irresponsible to provide unrealistic career advice. Would you advise the op to become a car salesman or a carpenter in the current economic climate?

With respect, johnnys, I think you are far removed from the realities of qualification for prospective solicitors.

johnnyskeleton · 05-09-2008 7:31pm

Johnny Utah wrote: »

JohnnySkeleton:

My first post (post #8) in this thread was genuine, honest advice to the op. He asked for brutally honest advice on the prospects of qualification, and I gave it.

Other posters cautioned the OP that it is difficult at the moment to become a solicitor. You said that you thought the OP was mad to pursue a career in law, yet you are doing just that. If I said to someone that they would be mad to buy shares in AIB but I was also buying up as many AIB shares as I could, I think that is a double standard. Likewise, I think calling the OP mad for wanting to do what you do is a double standard.

Johnny Utah wrote:

There were some other posts in the thread which I did not agree with, but I didn't engage in slating them or slagging off other posters. I have worked hard to get this far, and I feel it is important to provide honest, realistic advice on my experience thus far....I don't care how many posts you have, that is the sort of idiotic comment that drags a thread way off-topic.

I never said anything about post counts, and to me it is also irrelevant. By the way, there is a fine line between genuine criticism and personal abuse, but in any event there is no reason to be calling me or my posts idotic.

Johnny Utah wrote:

Firstly, hada responded to my post, implying that I did not like my work. Fair enough, perhaps he misunderstood my intentions because he conceded that I had made some valid points.

However, you then chipped in with a smart comment, in reference to my first post, that some people love to bitch about how hard they have it. Just because you don't agree with my view doesn't mean you have to get nasty.

It wasn't in reference to your comment, it was in reference to hada's (as evidenced by the fact that I quoted him, not you). Hada suggested that negative comments came from people who didn't like their jobs, and I made what I think is a valid point that just because you give out about your job, it does not mean that you don't like it. It had nothing to do with you. In making said comment I was neither agreeing nor disagreeing with your comment, nor was I being nasty. If anything, my comment was broadly in accord with what you are saying, because essentially you like pursuing a career as a solicitor, but you also criticise it.

Johnny Utah wrote:

Pot. Kettle. Black.

I don't think so. You seem to have misunderstood what I said, so I explained it. Why did you say "

And, some people are living in the twilight zone." It seems to me that you meant that what I was saying was incorrect, if so, please explain why? If not, please tell me what you meant?

Johnny Utah wrote:

In post #15, I already explained why I am still pursuing qualification as a solicitor.

Because you're too old to go back to college. I struggle with this logic; either you think you will enjoy a career in law or you wont. If you think you will, pursue your dream, if you think you wont, you should consider doing something else. The OP could find that he really enjoys working in law, so your unwillingness to retrain or get a job you enjoy should not form the basis of advice to him, particularly of the "I think you're mad" variety.

Johnny Utah wrote:

I also stated that if I haven't secured the apprenticeship within two years, I will move on to something else. The future is very uncertain for people in my situation, and undoubtedly there will not be enough training contracts to satisfy demand. Therefore, some people who have passed all the fe1s will not be able to pursue the solicitor qualification.

That's fair enough and I accept that. But that is one factor of many to consider when deciding whether or not to pursue a career in law (i.e. the risk of not getting a job). It is not determinative of whether someone should pursue a legal career.

Johnny Utah wrote:

I should also point out that I am in a different position to the op. I don't have a successful career to fall back on. If I want to pursue another avenue, then I have to go back to college and start at square one all over again. Not exactly a great option when you're in you're mid-twenties and want to have a bit of independence.

You're more alike than you would care to admit. He said that he worked in the construction sector and he has very subtly implied that he might not have much in the way of job security. He is also in a similar position in that if he wants to pursue another avenue he has to go back to college as well (the second part of his post). Finally, he is also mid twenties enjoying his independence.

Johnny Utah wrote:

If I could go back in time and advise my 18-year-old self, I would tell him not to go into law. There are plenty of other careers which are far easier and offer better job security. Having said that, I like studying law and my grades are quite good, but that's little consolation if you can't secure a training contract.

I'm sure you would have taken no notice of yourself and done what you wanted to do, no matter what the obstacles. If you are mid twenties now then you would have been 18 in the 1998-2001 era. I don't recall anyone saying that law was easy money with loads of job security; in fact, for as long as I can remember law was always considered a very difficult profession to get into and one in which the earnings were always exaggerated in the media.

Johnny Utah wrote:

Yes, I think it's wrong and irresponsible to provide unrealistic career advice.

Bully for you, but no-one asked that. I take it therefore that you are admitting, unprompted, that "I think you're mad" is unrealistic advice, and at least you feel bad about giving it out.

Johnny Utah wrote:

With respect, johnnys, I think you are far removed from the realities of qualification for prospective solicitors.

Why? Prove it? Give one exampe? I will not allow you to make bald assertions that attack my opinions and me personally without saying why you think that. If you look through this thread, I haven't advised anything to the OP, save insofar as I criticised some of the "honest" advice already given. Dats_right, who normally backs up what he says, makes similar criticisms of me but likewise he does back it up (or to be fair to him he has not backed it up yet but fully intends to do so).

I'm getting pretty annoyed at people making these groundless attacks on me.

I'll tell ya what, this thread has gone off the rails somewhat, so I'll start a new thread entitled "Is johnnyskeleton far removed from the realities of qualification for prospective solicitors?" and people can criticise (but not insult) me there with reasoned arguments, quotes from me, and links to external websites. If you can prove the charges then I will accept it, and in every thread where someone asks for legal career advice you can say "Don't listen to old man skeleton, he has been proved to be far removed from the realities of qualification for prospective solicitors". But if you can't prove it then you must stop making untrue accusations about me (and I'll consider reporting you for personal abuse to boot).

nuac · 06-09-2008 8:33pm

Sorry if my views have offended Pirelli or anyone else.

Law is a tough and demanding profession. People considering it should try to get some work experience with a practising lawyer before deciding on law as a career. They should talk some practising lawyers, and close relations of practising lawyers.

Academic institutions should explain to those entering on legal courses that if they want to be solicitors that they will need a training contract, and that should not be left until the last minute. I have sympathy for the numbers of applicants for training contracts seeking places after years of study.

I note comments on this board that while conveyancing is down, other forms of work, especially litigation are on the increase. In times of recession, litigation does increase. However it can take a long time to finalise some cases, and often longer still to get paid.

career change?!

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