Laws on nudity in Ireland

mikemac

Bit of a strange question, don't flame me :pac:

Suppose it's a bright sunny day in Ireland, don't laugh now
And I want to sit outside and have a few beers and maybe read the papers.

Can I do sit on the balcony of my apartment or my front or back garden of a house naked enjoying the warm weather?
After all, my property so can I do what I want. I am aware a balconey for an apartment may be slightly different and you mighn't actually own it.

But certainly, could my neighbours call the gardai if I was sunbathing in my garden naked, just minding my own business?

Or suppose it's a lazy Sunday morning and I'm not bothered about getting dressed, just watching TV and lazing around.
Suppose I walked past my window naked and and some person walking to mass looked in my window and saw me, could they complain? After all, I'd be inside the house but just standing by window. What constitutes "flashing" and does it apply if I'm on my property?

It's not something I do folks but I'd be interested to know where the legal system draws the line between the right to do the hell you want on your property and how this may affect the public?
I think it's a good question and I've not seen it raised before

ronnie3585

Down with that sort of thing.

Rhonda9000

How many times... you cant ask for legal advice here

Phototoxin

ronnie3585 wrote: »

Down with that sort of thing.

careful now

mikemac

I thought this was the place to ask interesting and hypothetical legal questions.
I'm only getting After Hours style reponses so far

McCrack

Haha right. To answer your question you cannot deliberately expose yourself in public. That's obvious. Now here's the tricky part. If you are in your house or sitting in your car in the nip it's not an offence if other people see you. It only becomes an offence if you are physically in public space. Also if for example you decide to catch some rays in your garden or on your balcony and you are starkers it can amount to an offence if members of the public "habitually pass-by". That of course is open to construction.

The relevant legislation is the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1935.

This kind of thing actually happens quite a bit. I actually remember seeing a middle-aged man sitting in his car once with nothing on waiting for his wife who was in church!!

I kid you not.

Our man in Havana

Hypothetically speaking, if I were in the nip in my back garden and my neighbour can see me from his upstairs window, would I be committing an offence?

ronnie3585

Bond-007 wrote: »

Hypothetically speaking, if I were in the nip in my back garden and my neighbour can see me from his upstairs window, would I be committing an offence?

Has he called the guards yet?:pac:

Rhonda9000

As McCrack correctly pointed out the 1935 CLA Act s. 18 makes the deliberate exposure of the person a possible offence "if committed at or near or in the sight of any place along which the public habitually pass".

This leaves the question of whether an offence has been committed up to the court.

The habitual passerby requirement would seem to militate against prosecution for nude sunbathing in e.g. a suburban back garden but again as McCrack pointed out, the same act carried out in a more public place may be more legally risky for the nudist.

Greenmachine

McCrack wrote: »

Haha right. To answer your question you cannot deliberately expose yourself in public. That's obvious. Now here's the tricky part. If you are in your house or sitting in your car in the nip it's not an offence if other people see you. It only becomes an offence if you are physically in public space. Also if for example you decide to catch some rays in your garden or on your balcony and you are starkers it can amount to an offence if members of the public "habitually pass-by". That of course is open to construction.

The relevant legislation is the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1935.

This kind of thing actually happens quite a bit. I actually remember seeing a middle-aged man sitting in his car once with nothing on waiting for his wife who was in church!!

I kid you not.

The question has to be asked. How did you know who he was waiting for.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

But if he's on the balcony, members of the public are unlikely to be "habitually passing by" - unless they'er about 20 foot tall.

The question is, will the neightbour call the guards or the Sunday World first?

qz

I'm only allowed look upwards if I'm twenty foot tall?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

qz wrote: »

I'm only allowed look upwards if I'm twenty foot tall?

You're only allowed to complain if you're 20 foot tall. Otherwise, what you looking at...?

McCrack

Greenmachine wrote: »

The question has to be asked. How did you know who he was waiting for.

haha yes I probably should of foreseen that question. It was in my locality. I knew the people. Church was on and the wife is a holy one. He was in the car-park sitting in the car.

Johnny Utah

Bond-007 wrote: »

Hypothetically speaking, if I were in the nip in my back garden and my neighbour can see me from his upstairs window, would I be committing an offence?

Sorry, no legal advice....:D







I think some of the legal opinions above are slightly incorrect. As far as I remember, you could be done for indecent exposure even if you were in your own house. I remember there was a case where a guy was bashing the bishop in his own sitting room and was seen by a person walking by, and was done for indecent exposure. Therefore, as I understand it, you don't necessarily have to be physically in public space in order to be prosecuted.

Having said that, I remember a case in the news last year where a woman in England often strolled around and sunbathed in her garden wearing nothing more than her birthday suit. A neighbour videoed the woman and then handed the videotapes to the police. I think the guy that videoed the naked woman was actually found guilty of invasion of privacy. Brings a new meaning to "neighbourhood watch":D

So, in conclusion, if you're walking around your house in the nip, and can be seen by a member of the public who is standing in a public place, then you are in trouble- this would include standing naked near a window in the front room, or an upstairs bedroom at the front of the house, on a balcony at the front of the house, etc. However, I'm not so sure what the situation is at the back of the house, where the garden is private but could be seen by a neighbour only.

EDIT: If the back garden was beside a main road, and everyone on the 74A got an eyeful every morning, then you'd be in trouble too as your actions would be visible by members of the public.

nhughes100

So is there laws to prosecute Peeping Tom's??? I'd have to say that guy with the videotape was on fairly thin ground.

goonmaster

The guy across the road from me used to parade around in his bedroom naked and anyone on the street walking by could see him, fat bastard.

Theres a primary school around the corner and somebody called the guards for obvious reasons. I dont think he ever went to court but got the guards at the door asking questions...

Johnny Utah

nhughes100 wrote: »

So is there laws to prosecute Peeping Tom's??? I'd have to say that guy with the videotape was on fairly thin ground.

Not sure, as I said it was an English case. It was probably a civil action.

Over here, you might be able to prosecute a peeping tom on harassment under NOAPA, though that would be strtching it a bit.

seamus

So, in conclusion, if you're walking around your house in the nip, and can be seen by a member of the public who is standing in a public place, then you are in trouble- this would include standing naked near a window in the front room, or an upstairs bedroom at the front of the house, on a balcony at the front of the house, etc. However, I'm not so sure what the situation is at the back of the house, where the garden is private but could be seen by a neighbour only.

Afaik, the same thing still applies. "Member of the public" could theoretically be a neighbour in their private home, right? So you don't have to be visible to a public place, just visible to a place where another member of the public may habitually pass by, which includes someone's back garden or their own rear balcony. Right?

There's a hot woman in the apartment block across the road from me who occassionally wanders around her sitting room naked. I've no intention of reporting her.

The man in England was prosecuted for invasion of privacy because he videotaped the woman while she was in a private place without her express permission.
It's for this same reason that we rarely see photos of celebrities wandering around inside their homes, taken by paparrazi - because you can't photograph or film anyone in a private place without their permission (even if you're standing in a public place).

drunkmonkey

I find it a bit strange that we can't be naked when and where we want.

how did these laws first come about? Seems to me the were created by a clothing company, naked people cause no offence to me..

Johnny Utah

seamus wrote: »

Afaik, the same thing still applies. "Member of the public" could theoretically be a neighbour in their private home, right? So you don't have to be visible to a public place, just visible to a place where another member of the public may habitually pass by, which includes someone's back garden or their own rear balcony. Right?

There's a hot woman in the apartment block across the road from me who occassionally wanders around her sitting room naked. I've no intention of reporting her.

The man in England was prosecuted for invasion of privacy because he videotaped the woman while she was in a private place without her express permission.
It's for this same reason that we rarely see photos of celebrities wandering around inside their homes, taken by paparrazi - because you can't photograph or film anyone in a private place without their permission (even if you're standing in a public place).

I thought the legislation stated that one had to be visible to a member of the public standing in a public place.... maybe I'm mistaken as I remember looking at this in Charlton a long time ago.

I also remember a case where a woman in Canada insisted on walking around topless. Maybe we should all emigrate to Canada

drunkmonkey

Johnny Utah wrote: »

I also remember a case where a woman in Canada insisted on walking around topless. Maybe we should all emigrate to Canada

I remember that, I think she won that case as it was discriminatory as Men could walk around topless but women could not!

Is it leagal for men and women to walk around topless in Ireland?

seamus

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Is it leagal for men and women to walk around topless in Ireland?

Since the constitution guarantees that all citizens are equal in the eyes of the law, then it either has to be illegal for both men and women or it's illegal for neither.

I would say it has yet to be tested. In the event that some biddy did claim that a topless woman caused offence to her, the state would need to decide whether topless men and women caused offence to the public at large.

I would think that any judge would rule in the negatory. Most children have even seen a pair of breasts at some stage, so any claims of "corrupting children" could be easily shot down.

drunkmonkey

would the same not apply to below the belt then as well..

we've all seen other people naked at some time or another, I don't see where the offence is unless your running around shaking it in peoples faces...sittin on your front pourch isn't really causing any offence...

seamus

Well to go back to the Act mentioned above, the action must "offend modesty or cause scandal or injure the morals of the community". There are still a number of people who would consider exposure of the genitalia to be something which would "offend modesty", but I think that the constitutional restriction would prevent the same interpretation being used on toplessness.

I had heard it said before that men walking around topless was technically illegal, but I'm pretty sure that any Garda bringing a man (or woman) to court for being topless would get a proper ticking off from the judge.

Our man in Havana

Now if he was sitting on his front porch bashing the bishop it would be a totally different matter.

axer

Surely you would have to be in a public place for this to be an offence. What happens in the case of a swimming pool whereby a member of the public could see you naked whilst changing your clothes?

Who determines the morals of the community etc?

Johnny Utah

axer wrote: »

Surely you would have to be in a public place for this to be an offence. What happens in the case of a swimming pool whereby a member of the public could see you naked whilst changing your clothes?

Good question, I also thought that the member of the public would have to be standing in a public place in order for an offence to be committed. A changing room is private, therefore no offence committed.



EDIT:
Seamus, do you think the provision, which mentions modesty/offending morals etc, could be found unconstitutional because of its vagueness?

Spike440

I remember doing this in LSM during my LLB as a general discussion on the role of law.

Laws on public nudity probably fall outside the first two prongs of Mill's harm principle (harm to self and harm to others), although it is arguable to raise a public hygiene issue. Assuming there is no hygiene issue, the reason for such a law is due to the third prong (offense) to others. As such the laws prohibiting nudity are an anathema (with society moving away from criminalising the offensive), but remain due to ingrained sociatal sensibilities. It doesn't matter how liberal we get, nudity in public is never going to be OK.

seamus

Johnny Utah wrote: »

EDIT:
Seamus, do you think the provision, which mentions modesty/offending morals etc, could be found unconstitutional because of its vagueness?

At the very least, I think it could be invalidated or ignored because of the general ambiguousness of the terms "modesty", "scandals" and "morals of the community". Certainly back in 1935, I'm sure these terms were very black-and-white, but not anymore.

Has anyone actually been charged with offences under this act in recent times? Don't streakers and the like usually get charged with a public order offence instead of relying on a dated and ambiguous act?

Victor

There was some guy who mooned the crowd at Croke Park a few years ago and if I remember correctly, was charged with causing offense at common law.

---

Ireland, back in the day..... when there were "Women's Beaches". A few local women arrive at the local beach only to see some brazen hussy (no doubt from Dublin or parts foreign) dressed in a bikini, sunbathing.*

Shocked, they call on the local garda to intervene. Embarrassed, our guardian of the peace crosses the beach to the woman and insists, in a stern, official tone "I'm sorry Madam, but only one-piece swim suits are allowed on this beach" to which she replies "Oh, I'm sorry, which part should I take off?".

Cue world imploding.

* It was one of the 3 sunny days that summer.
** As learned in Templemore