Deep inner conflict

CursedSkeptic

I am 18 and just about to start in college. At this most critical juncture in my life I look around at my peers and for the most part all I see is optimism, joie de vivre, etc. I on the other hand have been experiencing serious disillusionment regarding life and its value. Like almost everyone, I have always been told that life is important, that we must always continue despite the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Up until the age of about 16 I subscribed to this idea without questioning it. It was around this age that I began studying the work of many philosophers. Their ideas put many ideas which had been floating around my mind into a concrete form. My world view quickly began to move towards Nihilism and away from the implicit existentialism which exists in many minds under the current zeitgeist. I tried to express these feelings to my friends but I was insulted with response like “you think too much” or “just live life and be happy”. I feel they may have missed the point in what I was saying. I brought it up with the chaplain I respected in school, despite the fact that I am an atheist, and I was rebuked, although this was hardly surprising as I my beliefs are diametrically opposed to those of the religious. My question is this: How did you deal with this struggle in your life, and what conclusions did you draw on its resolution. Sorry for such a long post, I tend to ramble.

Davei141

What do you do for fun? and are you abit of a hermit

CursedSkeptic

Davei141 wrote: »

What do you do for fun? and are you abit of a hermit

Not at all, I have many friends, new and old, but now that you mention it, I do feel as if I am going through the motions a bit lately regarding my social life. I do go clubbing etc, granted, my real interest are elsewhere and I don't drink but I, up until recently, did usually have a good time. I find myself becoming a bit introverted, which is not my personality, and I do sometimes leave for home early without mentioning that I intended to leave. In a nutshell I am beginning to exhibit behavior which could be classed as slightly aloof, although that is clearly not my intention or indeed my mindset.

Davei141

What would your real interests be? Ive found thoughts like that are usually the result of extreme boredom/depression. Like you have nothing to look forward too so you think, whats the point? Whats your passions and hobbies besides philosophy

cson

Questions;

1) When was the last time you felt happy?
2) Who/What/Where/When was the cause of it?
3) Would you like to feel that way again?

Edit: Reccommend you buy The Way Of The Superior Man, by David Deida

CursedSkeptic

Davei141 wrote: »

What would your real interests be? Ive found thoughts like that are usually the result of extreme boredom/depression. Like you have nothing to look forward too so you think, whats the point? Whats your passions and hobbies besides philosophy

I am bored in that I don't see value in the things which once excited me. I have many conventional interest, as you said I am interested in philosophy, I play the piano and the violin, I write fiction and read voraciously, I mountain bike and sail, the list goes on, these activities just seem trivial to me now, as if they are drawing my thoughts away from the cutting edge, the ontological questions in my mind. As you mention it, I do see many activities like sport, work and socialising as nothing more than distractions set up to take ones mind off the utter absurdity of their existence. They are not questioned because many people don't want the answers, or they are not capable of question things which are so ubiquitous and considered so important by their peers, who they have been thought to value this things, and are genetically predisposed to conform. Add to this the fact that due to evolution we are in a sense programmed to believe everything we are told by our mothers and it is easy to see how sense traditions and points of view could become so widely held that anyone outside them is considered strange.

CursedSkeptic

cson wrote: »

Questions;

1) When was the last time you felt happy?
2) Who/What/Where/When was the cause of it?
3) Would you like to feel that way again?

Edit: Reccommend you buy The Way Of The Superior Man, by David Deida

I still feel the raw emotion of happiness, and through traditional avenues, that has a biological and psychological explanation, but the value of this happiness is the question I feel myself asking, and not being able to answer. It is happiness but it doesn't advance my knowledge in any way so it doesn't satisfy me in any real sense.

Chopper

Have you tried any forms of Meditation to help you find more insight rather than searching for "happiness" ?

cson

It is very worrying that you're questioning the value of happiness.

Buy that book, it may give you some direction for your life.

CursedSkeptic

Chopper wrote: »

Have you tried any forms of Meditation to help you find more insight rather than searching for "happiness" ?

I am not searching happiness, I am searching for an answer to the question how do I live, why should I live, if there is no meaning here.

CursedSkeptic

cson wrote: »

It is very worrying that you're questioning the value of happiness.

Buy that book, it may give you some direction for your life.

I will inquire further as you suggest, but I am familiar with the name David Deida and I am not sure if he is going provide me with anything meaningful. Nevertheless, I am open minded, I will not discount without further study.

Perhaps you are somebody who has experience something similar to my problem, to label it poorly. If so, you are the reason I have posted this thread. I would like to know what conclusions you came to and how you managed to continue.

LegacyUser

Chopper wrote: »

Have you tried any forms of Meditation to help you find more insight rather than searching for "happiness" ?

I concur. Happiness can never be found, sought, or understood by the mind because happiness is man's natural state of being. Philosophies, religions and dogmas that arise, are understood by the mind but are all relative truths. They contain the seed of the absolute, but are not the end in and of themselves. Heaven exists in the present, the here and now, then a thought arises that discriminates against it, and now we are in hell. Nihilism is not absolutely correct, it is a conceptualisation, a definition that asserts that life is meaningless and rejects all religious and moral principles. Here is the implicit assumption that life has ever really existed in the first place, the assumption that life is meant to have meaning, and the assumption religious and moral principles were ever absolutely true. How much pain does it bring you to believe your own thoughts and consequently discriminate against what is? What is is what is, it doesn't have to have meaning - it is doesn't have to have your mind discriminate or judge it - it is perfect.

I'd advise giving up the intellectual pursuits of philosophy and steer towards practicing mindfulness meditation. True wisdom comes from within, from the formless. Form, even in its thought form is always relative.

What you do with this advice is your own business, I'm not here to lecture or tell you what to do or to tell you whats true. I'm telling you to look within for your own wisdom using mindfulness as a tool.

Good luck

King John V

CursedSkeptic wrote: »

I am not searching happiness, I am searching for an answer to the question how do I live, why should I live, if there is no meaning here.

Your life does have meaning...to your family, friends and those around you who care about you. When you go to college you could join a student volunteer programme for example. I know of people who helped out with the Brothers of charity, Alzheimer's society etc. Assisting someone else in need can often put a person's own life in perspective. In any case keep your head up and embrace life. It may not always be easy but your certainly never alone.

Papad

This is one of the most interesting threads I've seen on boards. You come across as a extremely intelligent young person and that fact alone should negate some of your Nihilistic concepts. I've been like you for years and dealing with the constant struggles in life can be challenging to say the least. What I've done is relish these challenges. There is no need for me to seek conclusions to the resolutions in life's mysteries (challenges), even though I constantly question them in my own mind. The very nature of 'questioning' life's meaning does it for me. I don't necessarily need the answers. Maybe it's the same for you. I can tell you one thing though; as you progress through the years you become more enlightened.

Red Hand

Papad wrote: »

This is one of the most interesting threads I've seen on boards. You come across as a extremely intelligent young person and that fact alone should negate some of your Nihilistic concepts. I've been like you for years and dealing with the constant struggles in life can be challenging to say the least. What I've done is relish these challenges. There is no need for me to seek conclusions to the resolutions in life's mysteries (challenges), even though I constantly question them in my own mind. The very nature of 'questioning' life's meaning does it for me. I don't necessarily need the answers. Maybe it's the same for you. I can tell you one thing though; as you progress through the years you become more enlightened.

+1. Interesting thread alright. I guess I would feel similiar to the OP sometimes. It can be hard to just let go and live when you know, for instance, that your "happiness" is just a bunch of rewarding glandular hormones for good behavior and electric impulses in the brain.

dub45

I think it can be unhelpful to look for happiness (or contentment) as an end in itself. I think they are byproducts of doing lots of other things.

Also the meaning and purpose of life can change at different stages of our lives. Falling in love can change everything - falling out of love can certainly change everything:eek:

Some people are 'cursed' with thinking too much as well! Paul Simon has two songs about it on his Hearts and Bones album!:P

LegacyUser

I've thought about this myself and still do to an extent...my best advice is that life has no inherent meaning and isn't meaningless either, its basically filtered by your perception of it, so there are two options, either you can interpret the existing world to be negative or you can adopt a positive interpretation. At the time I thought that a positive perception was self deluding, but now I think that the negative approach is also equally wrong, so I choose to adopt the former as its more beneficial in terms of my existence. Sometimes this is still disrupted by negative reactions to experiences...

Its easy to lose faith in humanity when you become aware of unjustified activities of elites dominating politics and the media. But something like the large hadron collider reflects just how beautiful the human mind can be, that cold rationalizations about our probable fate to the contrary, our potential for development could well be limitless. Although this is in serious jeopardy and we must become space faring for our survival or we are basically screwed imo. But I think this is also likely, we are sprinting in terms of technological progress... Even culturally (at least in the west) we have improved, somewhat insofar as you can hold whatever views you want without facing an inquisition. So things can improve, better to seek magnory (magnificent glory, haha) and all the possibilities this presents, rather than to be paralyzed by nihilism.

SnowMonkey

your friends say the likes of stop thinking so much, etc not because, they mean that more then likly they just dont get it....

some people minds arnt so open and see things through blinkers, how ever be safe in the knowlidge, that at least you see a bigger picture. Persoanlly i don't really understand you. No offence, but your brainy and have feed your brain, a bit to much, maybe you should put the books down, and excpt what you've read, make your own dessions about life granted where a biological accedent but does that mean where there only ones in the vast endless void of space.....

what im trying to say is that yes where a biological accdent but theres more to a human body then a mind we are matter and we do have energy it goes somewhere......

Blazer

Papad wrote: »

This is one of the most interesting threads I've seen on boards. You come across as a extremely intelligent young person and that fact alone should negate some of your Nihilistic concepts. I've been like you for years and dealing with the constant struggles in life can be challenging to say the least. What I've done is relish these challenges. There is no need for me to seek conclusions to the resolutions in life's mysteries (challenges), even though I constantly question them in my own mind. The very nature of 'questioning' life's meaning does it for me. I don't necessarily need the answers. Maybe it's the same for you. I can tell you one thing though; as you progress through the years you become more enlightened.

Really? Because i think the op needs a good kick up the arse.
Asking people on the net for the meaning of life?
No one in the world knows the meaning of life. Simple as that.
You just have to face your challenges through life and come through them unscathed or a little bit wiser.
Some people find life in family,kids etc.
Others find life in sports/ climbing mountains/travelling etc.
Others find life in killing and maiming others so you can see that the meaning of life is different to each and every person.
It's upto you to find what your meaning is.

Marksie

This is wandering into the realms of a humanities discussion
Not PI.

The simple answer is you are 18, have some life experience, but by no means extensive.
Yes, everyone changes and thnigs that once seemed important are not. But they were at the time.
Life is about experiencing things, of all natures and varieties, good and bad.

Not pondering absolutes, but living, in the now, fully.

Life changes and will continue to change as you grow older and paths open up.
But i noted you mentioned to one poster that they were the reason you posted in the thread.

Despite all your reading, and well constructed posts, that indiactes one thing. You are not open to change yourself..you have a fixed view and outlook and have found one who will affirm it, all the other views, which are equally valid, but more practically based I do not beliebve you consider to be important.

You are in effect, grounded by your readings, like a rock in a stream. Accept change, and move with life, experience as much as you can, it is the onoy way to begin to understand.

However, the choice is yours, if all you wish is an intellectual discussion rather than a means of practically moving forward, I will move this to Humanities.

If you think therefore that to move forward you have to have it planned, your wrong. Its by experience and that alone we find our meanings, but you have to be present and not in your head

CursedSkeptic

My meaning has been misconstrued by several people, and the original meaning of my initial post has ignored by some. I may not have been clear enough. I will restate my position once more clearly in order to avoid confusion although I think I may not have been wise in bringing this issue up here, in hindsight it isn't at all suited to this setting. I was searching for advice from those who have gone through something similar. I thought that perhaps somebody had experienced what I am currently going through and could perhaps provide me with an account of their thought process. I at no point asked what the meaning of life is, or assumed along teleological lines that life is supposed to have a meaning. I will remain open to an account of somebody else's experiences. Thank you all for taking the time to respond, and apologies for any confusion I may have caused.

On further point, I am a relativist and a materialist. I think one or more of the above posts may have been unsure of this

CursedSkeptic

1234343434 wrote: »

I've thought about this myself and still do to an extent...my best advice is that life has no inherent meaning and isn't meaningless either, its basically filtered by your perception of it, so there are two options, either you can interpret the existing world to be negative or you can adopt a positive interpretation. At the time I thought that a positive perception was self deluding, but now I think that the negative approach is also equally wrong, so I choose to adopt the former as its more beneficial in terms of my existence. Sometimes this is still disrupted by negative reactions to experiences...

Its easy to lose faith in humanity when you become aware of unjustified activities of elites dominating politics and the media. But something like the large hadron collider reflects just how beautiful the human mind can be, that cold rationalizations about our probable fate to the contrary, our potential for development could well be limitless. Although this is in serious jeopardy and we must become space faring for our survival or we are basically screwed imo. But I think this is also likely, we are sprinting in terms of technological progress... Even culturally (at least in the west) we have improved, somewhat insofar as you can hold whatever views you want without facing an inquisition. So things can improve, better to seek magnory (magnificent glory, haha) and all the possibilities this presents, rather than to be paralyzed by nihilism.

Thank you for your post. I can see your decision making process, and it is something that has crossed my mind before. My one problem with it is that once you decide that you are going to embrace life and seek happiness as your ultimate goal, are you not cutting yourself off philosophical discovery. For example, had Nietzsche (or many other philosophers) made such a decision he would never have written any of his great works. Titus Epicurus went down a hedonistic line not dissimilar to that which you have outlined and it seems to me that he may have closed his mind to the possibility of gaining further insight.

In response to the second half of your post, are you a reader of Sagan? I agree with much of what you say but I would question whether technological progress is actually net progress, although that is quite off topic.

Thank you for your valuable reply

Davei141

CursedSkeptic wrote: »

My one problem with it is that once you decide that you are going to embrace life and seek happiness as your ultimate goal, are you not cutting yourself off philosophical discovery.

Your 18. When you get a stressful job and perhaps a woman you adore your not going to give a crap about philosophical discovery tbh. Alot of bored teens who think they are different always go through these phases, they begin to define themselves by it. I probably would of thought the same thing as you when i was about 14-16, you grow out of it when you have to deal with the **** life throws at you.

Marksie

Quite simply not a PI, i am moving to humanities.

You are simply looking for a debate. You may also wish to look at the philosophy forum

nyarlothothep

CursedSkeptic wrote: »

Thank you for your post. I can see your decision making process, and it is something that has crossed my mind before. My one problem with it is that once you decide that you are going to embrace life and seek happiness as your ultimate goal, are you not cutting yourself off philosophical discovery. For example, had Nietzsche (or many other philosophers) made such a decision he would never have written any of his great works. Titus Epicurus went down a hedonistic line not dissimilar to that which you have outlined and it seems to me that he may have closed his mind to the possibility of gaining further insight.

In response to the second half of your post, are you a reader of Sagan? I agree with much of what you say but I would question whether technological progress is actually net progress, although that is quite off topic.

Thank you for your valuable reply

Happiness, or at least looking for the positives in life is not mutually exclusive from philosophical thought. I think its good to enjoy life, or to find positives rather than negatives, and to see negative situations as springboards to develop positives from them. Hedonism would be negative in its own right for me because then one wouldn't be developing themselves through whatever they're interested in. Thinking like this would bring about its own problems in reducing everything to instant gratification. For example studying philosophy/music/english/physic, these are positive pursuits, and imo its possible to enjoy life while making new discoveries in these disciplines.

I used to study philosophy actually when I was in first year of uni five years ago, and I concluded that every philosophical theory, every justification for a way of thinking should be taken with a big pinch of salt. Because having looked at these theories, a lot of them have their own unique flaws. In a way I somewhat hate philosophical theories because of this, and my attitude now is to dismantle any bold pronouncements on life, politics and so on. There are no absolute givens to what it is we call life, it depends on how you approach it. I also used to to think that thinking critically about existence blah requires one to see problems, to be dissatisfied. But that is only one motivation, another might be natural curiosity, to investigate how things work, messing around with directions of thought, rather than being compelled by a negative reaction towards them.

Technological progress doesn't represent net progress, absolutely true, but the example with CERN is that its non commercial for the most part, its not particularly practical or down to earth, which is why I like it so much. Its not borne out of petty interests, greed or a lack of imagination. Its a product of the opposites of these things, and the complexity of the engineering, the technology and the theories behind it suggest to me that if we are capable of such complex thought, we have the potential to slowly progress towards a more just society, one in which people can eventually pursue their own interests, where people don't have to worry about crime etc. Of course this would be about a million years away, but you can see it in small pockets already, well I can anyway see that a small but distinct minority are fair minded and rational.

CursedSkeptic

Marksie wrote: »

Quite simply not a PI, i am moving to humanities.

You are simply looking for a debate. You may also wish to look at the philosophy forum

Thank you

Kama

Heh, I empathise a lot with the OP, I had a very similar philosophical position at a similar age, which frankly I remember as a very bitter and self-certain time. I fully agree with a lot of the practical advice given, especially the value of life experience, and not clinging to a belief structure, especially if its an angsty nihilist one Just reading through it has been a helpful reminder to me of what I 'know', but haven't integrated fully enough. Thanks to all.

I'd reject the 'happiness is unphilosophical' concept; there's nothing particularly noble about suffering, especially if its self-inflicted; nor is there anything making you 'better' than anyone else by being less happy than them, this is an awful approach to life and other people, a harsh and lonely elitism of contempt and distance. I say this purely on the basis of having gone quite a distance down that road once. Frankly, besides the emo image, you are more likely to be philosophically productive, as in almost any field, if you have a generally optimistic outlook.

If you approach the world as a meaningless affair, you'll garner plenty of evidence for your suspicion. Equally, if you search in life for meaning and happiness, you may well find them. And this choice of perspective, in and of itself, is a meaningful one.

Earthhorse

CursedSkeptic wrote: »

I tried to express these feelings to my friends but I was insulted with response like “you think too much” or “just live life and be happy”.

As glib and dismissive as your friends' responses may appear to you, probably in part because you value deep and thorough thinking far more than they do, there is a grain of truth to what they're saying. The mind is a wonderful tool when we use it correctly. It can help us in a myriad of ways to improve our lives and provide us with wonderful insights, such as the philosophical truths you prize so highly.

The problem is, once we turn it on, particularly to the philosophical quandries you may be pondering now, we are quite bad at turning it off. We are no longer using it as a tool so much as it is using us. Then, our thoughts become like pollutants in everything we do.

So, whilst you regard the activities which we all engage in as distractions from your mind I would say that your mind is distracting you from those activities. When you are out sailing is there a need for you to be pondering Zeno's Forth Paradox? Is there a need for you to be pondering anything at all? Of course there isn't. Focus fully on the moment you are in. There will be plenty of time you can spend on these connundrums.

You may even argue that you like thinking whilst doing other things. But this is just a trick. Either do the thing you are doing without distraction or quit the thing you are doing and delve fully into the thinking (or distraction, I might call it).

Now, I am not encouraging you to abandon thinking altogether. Rather, I am encouraging you to not let it pollute everything you do. The goal is not "No thinking", aim instead for "Little thinking" or "Good thinking".

CursedSkeptic wrote: »

I will inquire further as you suggest, but I am familiar with the name David Deida and I am not sure if he is going provide me with anything meaningful. Nevertheless, I am open minded, I will not discount without further study.

Of course he can't provide you with anything meaningful. Only you can do that. He might be able to point the way though.

Careful too that when you keep an open mind it is not open, as Seamus Heaney would say, like a trap, ready to snare whatever unfortunate animal happens to wander into it. Ready to snap shut and say "Aha! Wrong!" to anything that conflicts with its existing existence. A truly open mind allows ideas both to enter and to leave. It keeps itself clear so when the truth does reveal itself it is recognised.

CursedSkeptic wrote: »

My one problem with it is that once you decide that you are going to embrace life and seek happiness as your ultimate goal, are you not cutting yourself off philosophical discovery.

Are you? Why would you be? Because romantic notions about outsiders looking in decrees it? Are happiness and philosophy mutually opposed? If so, is philosophy worth a jot?

CursedSkeptic wrote: »

For example, had Nietzsche (or many other philosophers) made such a decision he would never have written any of his great works. Titus Epicurus went down a hedonistic line not dissimilar to that which you have outlined and it seems to me that he may have closed his mind to the possibility of gaining further insight.

Perhaps he did. Or maybe he never found the time to write down those insights because he was having too much fun. Maybe his life was the insight. How can we know? How can we know that Nietzsche wouldn't have written his greatest works had he been a lot happier? We can't. Spike Milligan, who was famously bi-polar, always maintained that he was funny in spite of his illness not because of it.

There are many miserable people in the world and few have gained anything from it. The only thing misery will give you an insight into is more misery. Let me ask you this; does leading a miserable life sound like the actions of someone who is truly enlightened?

CursedSkeptic wrote: »

My question is this: How did you deal with this struggle in your life, and what conclusions did you draw on its resolution. Sorry for such a long post, I tend to ramble.

Having been described as a nihilist myself let me give you a few specific things I would do to try and extract yourself from the situation, as it were:

• Pick up a copy of "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. It won't tell you anything you don't already know. By reading and re-reading it it might help reconnect you with that reality.
• Investigate Buddhism. Not too knowledgable on it myself but have read a little on it. If it won't answer your questions about why it may be helpful on the how. Meditation has already been mentioned and I would look into that too.
• Try and take a Gestalt approach to your thinking. This is a little more of a personal tool than the other two and may not be as helpful but let me explain. For all the deconstructing you do in trying to understand the world; for all the semantics and linguistic trivialities that we end up wandering around in philosophical thought, remember that the world we live in is a reconstructed one. It lives, it breathes. The parts don't exist in isolation, they move together in orchestra. The whole isn't necessarily greater than the sum of the parts but it is different to them. Understanding why somebody did something may provide you with an insight into that action but it might not give you any insight into them. Similarly, understanding one part of life may not help you understand "Life".

Anyway, I think that is quite enough from me. I hope that you find at least some of this helpful.