Reservists & Politics...

King Ludvig

Just a quick question about members of RDF being members of a political organisation/party/society.

Regulations sate:
"A member (Reservist), while called out on permanent service, shall not join or be a member of, or subscribe to, or canvass or collect for any political organisation or society whatsoever."

Permanent service is defined as "fulltime and continuous military service or duty for which he or she is liable under paragraph 36 of these regulations"

Any one know if a reservist is allowed be a member of a political society such as sinn fein, FF etc ??

IrishKnight

I've been told you can be a member, so long you don't start going to meetings in your uniform for anything.

Extract from: DEFENCE ACT, 1954

I, ............................................................................................................................, do solemnly swear (or declare) that I will be faithful to Ireland and loyal to the Constitution and that while I am a man of the Reserve Defence Force I will obey all lawful orders issued to me by my superior officers and will not join or be a member of or subscribe to any secret society whatsoever.

That is the RDF oath, no word of political party, just secret societies.

eroo

Any party except for Sinn Fein as they don't exactly get along with the DF,what with them believing that the DF is not the Irish Army and all.

arybvtcw0eolkf

eroo wrote: »

Any party except for Sinn Fein as they don't exactly get along with the DF,what with them believing that the DF is not the Irish Army and all.

SF is part of the democratic process in Ireland now, the same rules apply. But I wouldn't go talking about SF links

OP, I'm not sure what the answer is however I do know that Charlie Haughey was an officer in the 7th Inf Bn (not sure what that unit is called now).

kermit_ie

RDF personnel can be members of Political Parties. PDF personnel can not, and it is part of their oath.

King Ludvig

Thanks lads, Ill ask when training starts back next week just to make sure.

In my opinion

A member of the reserve can be a member of a political party, can stand or election, can sit on a local authority however if they become a member of the Oireachtas must resign.

Many members of the RDF/FCA have been elected members of various councils probably because those that are truly involved are also involved in their communities.

The old 19th had a Sgt. Major who was a member of a Town Council a Cpl. who was on the same town council and I think a Lt. who was actually commisioned while the Chairman of Roscommon Co. Co.

In addition I think the main man behind Libertas is a Gunner in the 54th RAR.

guinnessdrinker

OP, Declan Ganley, founder Libertas is still (I think) a member of the RDF. He was very high profile during the anti Lisbon campaign.

cushtac

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

OP, Declan Ganley, founder Libertas is still (I think) a member of the RDF. He was very high profile during the anti Lisbon campaign.

Libertas isn't a political party though.

guinnessdrinker

cushtac wrote: »

Libertas isn't a political party though.

I know but the OP asked about members of the RDF being members of a political organisations and societies also.

trellheim

In old times it was quite possible to be a member of parliament and hold military rank. This was abolished.

One other one not mentioned is that you cannot be an MEP either.

marco murphy

eroo wrote: »

Any party except for Sinn Fein as they don't exactly get along with the DF,what with them believing that the DF is not the Irish Army and all.

Where does it say that? I don't reckon any member of Sinn Fein would even consider joining the ''DF''.

I'm curious, does that oath have to be signed?

eroo

Poblachtach wrote: »

Where does it say that? I don't reckon any member of Sinn Fein would even consider joining the ''DF''.

I'm curious, does that oath have to be signed?

Well,I never said it was official,just that isn't recommended.;)

No the oath doesn't have to be signed.

Just what do you mean by ''DF''?

marco murphy

eroo wrote: »

Well,I never said it was official,just that isn't recommended.;)

Ok.

No the oath doesn't have to be signed.

Interesting. Do you know anyone who hasn't?

Just what do you mean by ''DF''?

I quoted you.

minidazzler

Poblachtach wrote: »

Ok.


Interesting. Do you know anyone who hasn't?


I quoted you.

By that he may mean that the Oath is said aloud and the contract is signed.

marco murphy

minidazzler wrote: »

By that he may mean that the Oath is said aloud and the contract is signed.

Oh right, thanks.

eroo

Poblachtach wrote: »

I quoted you.

Fair enough.

greenarrow

That is not necessarily true with regards the oath.
The Employment Equality Act 1977 is also applicable in the military since 2000.


You can be a member of any political party, but you can't canvas for them while in uniform or have posters/fliers.badges etc. hanging in your billet and so on. On your own time you are allowed.

You're perfectly entitled to your political beliefs, and its one of the grounds for discrimination that are outlawed in the act.
Along with sex, marital staus, member of the traveller community, disability, race, ethnicity, sexuality....and whatever others are in there.

But you are entitled to be a member of a ploitical party if you so wish, as long as you don't express those views while in uniform in any form.

bunny shooter

Don't you "take/swear" an oath as in verbally say it and by doing this you agree to be bound by it same as signing a contract?

segaBOY

Pat Rabbitte was also a member of the FCÁ afaik.

In my opinion

greenarrow wrote: »

That is not necessarily true with regards the oath.
The Employment Equality Act 1977 is also applicable in the military since 2000.


You can be a member of any political party, but you can't canvas for them while in uniform or have posters/fliers.badges etc. hanging in your billet and so on. On your own time you are allowed.

You're perfectly entitled to your political beliefs, and its one of the grounds for discrimination that are outlawed in the act.
Along with sex, marital staus, member of the traveller community, disability, race, ethnicity, sexuality....and whatever others are in there.

But you are entitled to be a member of a ploitical party if you so wish, as long as you don't express those views while in uniform in any form.

Explain the above as I believed that the following legislation refered to the grounds for discrimination namely The Employment Equality Acts 1998 and 2004.

I also believe The legislation prohibits discrimination on the following nine grounds:

• The gender ground: A man, a woman or a transsexual person (specific protection is provided for pregnant employees or in relation to maternity leave);
• The marital status ground: Single, married, separated, divorced or widowed;
• The family status ground: A parent of a person under 18 years or the resident primary carer or a parent of a person with a disability;
• The sexual orientation ground: Gay, lesbian, bisexual or heterosexual; (The Court of Justice in PSV held that discrimination against a transsexual constituted discrimination on the grounds of sex.)
• The religion ground: Different religious belief, background, outlook or none;
• The age ground: This applies to all ages above the maximum age at which a person is statutorily obliged to attend school;
• The disability ground: This is broadly defined including people with physical, intellectual, learning, cognitive or emotional disabilities and a range of medical conditions;
• The race ground: A particular race, skin colour, nationality or ethnic origin;

• The Traveller community ground: People who are commonly called Travellers, who are identified both by Travellers and others as people with a shared history, culture and traditions, identified historically as a nomadic way of life on the island of Ireland

No mention of politics though.

testicle

greenarrow wrote: »

But you are entitled to be a member of a ploitical party if you so wish, as long as you don't express those views while in uniform in any form.

Members of the PDF are not allowed to be a member of a Political Party.

Members of Dail Eireann must resign from the Reserve Defence Forces if they were a member prior to being elected.

greenarrow

testicle wrote: »

Members of the PDF are not allowed to be a member of a Political Party.

Members of Dail Eireann must resign from the Reserve Defence Forces if they were a member prior to being elected.

I will clarify that point. You can be a member of a political party, but being a TD or a senator is not the same thing as being a member of a party.

You are allowed be a member of a party, go to meetings, ard fheis etc. But being a member and being and a TD are not the same thing.
Those people that are hanging up posters and so on, they would be members of the party. You are allowed to be one of them if you are in the DF. But not a senator or TD.

So long as you are not canvassing in uniform or in a barracks (which has to remain apolitical) you are OK.

pmg58

The oath says PDF can't be a member of a political party full stop.

greenarrow

No you are wrong. You can be a member of a political party. You are entitled to be a member.

But its like being in a fan club. Its not the same thing as being in the band.

By members the oath is referring to being in a position of the party whereby you are in a "chair" position. I have bumped into officers and NCOs at the FF ard fheis from time to time.

There are two types of memberships for a political party. Being a member of government, or being a member similar to the above example I used.

You can be a member of a political party, but you can't canvas for the party. And to deny anyone the opportunity to do that is discrimination and is outlawed under the employment equality act of 1977. This has been military law since 2000. And IMO outlined the grounds.

So if you deny someone the civil right to be a member of a political party, you are denying them their rights and discriminating against them. Which is illegal. And the grounds for discrimination were outlined in a post above. Every man and woman has a constitutional right to vote for whomever they want.

I am sorry if you disagree, but you are in the wrong. The oath is speaking of membership in the sense of holding a position within the party that is not apolitical. If you want to be a member of the party and support them, similar to going to the FF ard fheis, then you can.



IN MY OPINION...to discriminate against someone on their political beliefs is not allowed either. So long as that person is keeping their beliefs private and not canvassing for a party, then they are perfectly entitled to support if they wish. Its their constitutional right to their political beliefs. As in who they want to vote for. To keep it short and sweet and simple.
So as long they don't canvas in uniform or have manifestos in their billet/locker etc. then their political beliefs are their own business. Be it FF, FG, Labour...whoever. But if you pulled them up on voting for Labour and you were FF, then they would have a case. Assuming they weren't canvassing and so on in barracks or uniform.

pmg58

greenarrow wrote: »

No you are worng. You can be a member of a political party. You are entitled to be a member.

But its like being in a fan club. Its not the same thing as being in the band.

By members the oath is referring to being in a position of the party whereby you are in a "chair" position. I have bumped into officers and NCOs at the FF ard fheis from time to time.

There are two types of memberships for a political party. Being a member of government, or beign a member similar to the above example I used.

You can be a member of a political party, but you can't canvas for the party. And to deny anyone the opportunity to do that is discrimination and is outlawed under the employment equality act of 1977. This has been military law since 2000.

So if you deny someone the civil right to be a member of a political party, you are denying them their rights and discriminatign against them. Which is illegal. And the grounds for discrimination were outlined in a post above.

I am sorry if you disagree, but you are in the wrong. The oath is speaking of membership in the sense of holding a position within the party that is not apolitical. If you want to be a member of the party and support them, similar to going to the FF ard fheis, then you can.

It also states that you can't subscribe to a political party. How do you interpret that?

pmg58

The employment act of 1977 doen't apply to PDF.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1977/en/act/pub/0016/sec0012.html#zza16y1977s12

Employments excluded from application of Act. 12.—(1) This Act does not apply to employment—
[GA]
( a ) in the Defence Forces,
[GA]
( b ) in the Gárda Síochána,
[GA]
( c ) in the prison service, or
[GA]
( d ) in a private residence or by a close relative.
[GA]
(2) ( a ) Notwithstanding subsection (1), the Minister may by order declare that this Act shall apply to such class or classes of employment referred to in that subsection as may be specified in the order, and from the commencement of the order this Act shall apply to that class or those classes.
[GA]
( b ) Where the Minister proposes to make an order under this subsection, a draft of the proposed order shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and the order shall not be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each House.
[GA]
(3) Sections 19, 20 (b), 21 and 28 shall not apply to the selection, by the Local Appointments Commissioners or the Civil Service Commissioners, of a person for appointment to an office or position.

Poccington

Thank **** it doesn't.

Too many soldiers think they're entitled to all sorts, without realising they're in the Military not an office job.

ghostwhisper

Blah blah blah....


But greenarrow has been right all along.

As a member of the DF you can be a member of a political party, but only in the sense that he mentioned.

And here is the example of it. Charles Haughey was a member of the 7th BN FCA back in the day. (Yep, that Charles Haughey)

But when he became a TD/Minister he resigned. That's a fact.
He became a member of the party in his early teens while he was in An FCÁ. Or possibly before then. But while in the reserves he was still a member of the party.
Obviously working his way up, but in a means that was allowed under the oath.

And the oath for reservists (even back then) was the same as the oath today.


So what greenarrow said all along, he was right about it. There is a difference in the level of membership that the oath is making reference to. And that example is a well known one. And its not possible for anyone to refute its validity either, because it is a well known fact and 100% true. I am not making it up.

Being a member under the oath is referring to sitting in parliament as a TD, just like Greenarrow said it was.

P.S. THE EMPLOYMENT EQUALITY ACT BECAME APPLICABLE AND MILITARY LAW IN NOVEMBER 2000. I READ ABOUT IT IN BUSINESS STUDIES WHEN I WAS IN SCHOOL.

AND PMG IT DOES EXTEND TO PEOPLE EMPLOYED IN PRIVATE RESIDENCE TOO. I.E. PEOPLE WORKING IN NURSING HOMES FOR EXAMPLE - THAT IS EMPLOYMENT IN A PRIVATE RESIDENCE. YOUR "SOURCE" IS NOT AS SOLID AS YOU MIGHT THINK.

pmg58

greenarrow is talking about the PDF not the reserves, different rules apply, and different oaths are taken upon enlistment.

And its all very well saying you read about the act when you were in school, but that proves nothing. Can you give a link to a legal act etc that proves it?

pmg58

OK now i've just had a chance to have a good look through the act......

It says this at the bottom of the contents section:
AN ACT TO MAKE UNLAWFUL IN RELATION TO EMPLOYMENT CERTAIN KINDS OF DISCRIMINATION ON GROUNDS OF SEX OR MARITAL STATUS, TO ESTABLISH A BODY TO BE KNOWN AS THE EMPLOYMENT EQUALITY AGENCY, TO AMEND THE ANTI-DISCRIMINATION (PAY) ACT, 1974 AND TO PROVIDE FOR OTHER MATTERS.



I feel pretty stupid right now, it only refers to discrimination on the basis of sex.

ghostwhisper

PMG

The oath for the RDF and PDF is slightly different.

BUT- the part about membership of political parties is the same.
What greenarrow said was on the money about how you can be a member of a party, and he was also right about the capacity with which membership is allowed.
There is a difference in what the oath determines as a member of a political party. It just doesn't differentiate it clearly in the oath. But it is there. Anyone with an active interest in politics will know what I mean.

As to the Equality Act and so on, a person is entitled to their political beliefs, but they can't flaunt them in the workplace. He was also right to say that if a person was brought to book about how they vote, or where their allegiances lie, that would constitute discrimination.
It is unconstitutional to deny someone that basic right. AND highly illegal too.

So as long as a person keeps their politics out of their unit, there is no harm done.

Greenarrow was right in his argument all the way.

As with regards finding any links to where the legislation comes into play, I can't think of any. But it is superior to Military Law in terms of giving employment rights to soldiers. The DOD is an employer and falls under the majority of the law that all other employers do.



Offhand, to throw proof or whatever you would like to call it, following the Act being applicable to the military the example I can think of is that of the Dignity Charter and A7 age all coming about.
I am not going into all that nonsense, but it was brought about because it was necessary to bring the DF into the 21st century on these matters.
The reason for that was because it wasn't against any military law to discriminate against other members until the Act of 1977 came into play.

Which is why there is now a higher degree of professionalism in the DF, and various alms for solving/supporting grievances, when it comes to matters like this. As compared with ten years ago even.

blah blah blah...just like in every other place of employment really.

pmg58

ghostwhisper wrote: »

PMG

The oath for the RDF and PDF is slightly different.

BUT- the part about membership of political parties is the same.
What greenarrow said was on the money about how you can be a member of a party, and he was also right about the capacity with which membership is allowed.
There is a difference in what the oath determines as a member of a political party. It just doesn't differentiate it clearly in the oath. But it is there. Anyone with an active interest in politics will know what I mean.

As to the Equality Act and so on, a person is entitled to their political beliefs, but they can't flaunt them in the workplace. He was also right to say that if a person was brought to book about how they vote, or where their allegiances lie, that would constitute discrimination.
It is unconstitutional to deny someone that basic right. AND highly illegal too.

So as long as a person keeps their politics out of their unit, there is no harm done.

Greenarrow was right in his argument all the way.

As with regards finding any links to where the legislation comes into play, I can't think of any. But it is superior to Military Law in terms of giving employment rights to soldiers. The DOD is an employer and falls under the majority of the law that all other employers do.



Offhand, to throw proof or whatever you would like to call it, following the Act being applicable to the military the example I can think of is that of the Dignity Charter and A7 age all coming about.
I am not going into all that nonsense, but it was brought about because it was necessary to bring the DF into the 21st century on these matters.
The reason for that was because it wasn't against any military law to discriminate against other members until the Act of 1977 came into play.

Which is why there is now a higher degree of professionalism in the DF, and various alms for solving/supporting grievances, when it comes to matters like this. As compared with ten years ago even.

blah blah blah...just like in every other place of employment really.

First of all, the part about membership of political parties is not the sam, its the only difference between the PDF and RDF oaths.

Heres a link to a post (thanks to Testicle) that shows the different oaths.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52632089&postcount=4


And I've also shown that the equality act of 1977 only refers to sexual discrimination.

Mentioning the Dignity Charter and A7 don't prove anything you've said.

Greenarrow is wrong.

ghostwhisper

The Employment Equality Act 1977 doesn't just cover sexual discrimination.

It also deals with harassment and bullying, intimidation, exclusion etc. It covers everything really.
And all the grounds that qualify as discrimination and everything that counteracts them and sets them out as illegal work pracrtices.

ghostwhisper

Just looked at that link. Does that mean I have to stop being a stone cutter

pmg58

ghostwhisper wrote: »

The Employment Equality Act 1977 doesn't just cover sexual discrimination.

It also deals with harassment and bullying, intimidation, exclusion etc. It covers everything really.
And all the grounds that qualify as discrimination and everything that counteracts them and sets them out as illegal work pracrtices.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1977/en/act/pub/0016/sec0002.html#zza16y1977s2

This section clearly states that discrimination for the purpose of the act refers to sexual discrimination.

If you want to link me to an act that covers the other types of discrimination, I'll gladly read it. www.irishstatutebook.ie

In my opinion

greenarrow wrote: »

No you are wrong. You can be a member of a political party. You are entitled to be a member.

But its like being in a fan club. Its not the same thing as being in the band.

By members the oath is referring to being in a position of the party whereby you are in a "chair" position. I have bumped into officers and NCOs at the FF ard fheis from time to time.

There are two types of memberships for a political party. Being a member of government, or being a member similar to the above example I used.

You can be a member of a political party, but you can't canvas for the party. And to deny anyone the opportunity to do that is discrimination and is outlawed under the employment equality act of 1977. This has been military law since 2000. And IMO outlined the grounds.

So if you deny someone the civil right to be a member of a political party, you are denying them their rights and discriminating against them. Which is illegal. And the grounds for discrimination were outlined in a post above. Every man and woman has a constitutional right to vote for whomever they want.

I am sorry if you disagree, but you are in the wrong. The oath is speaking of membership in the sense of holding a position within the party that is not apolitical. If you want to be a member of the party and support them, similar to going to the FF ard fheis, then you can.



IN MY OPINION...to discriminate against someone on their political beliefs is not allowed either. So long as that person is keeping their beliefs private and not canvassing for a party, then they are perfectly entitled to support if they wish. Its their constitutional right to their political beliefs. As in who they want to vote for. To keep it short and sweet and simple.
So as long they don't canvas in uniform or have manifestos in their billet/locker etc. then their political beliefs are their own business. Be it FF, FG, Labour...whoever. But if you pulled them up on voting for Labour and you were FF, then they would have a case. Assuming they weren't canvassing and so on in barracks or uniform.

You are missing many points.

1. A reservist may be a member of a political party. A permanent member of the DF may not.
2. A member of a political party is one who pays their subscription (subscribes ) to a political party and is entered on the membership roll as a member, one who votes for or supports a particular party is not necessarily a member they are a voter or a supporter.
3. What constitutional right provides for membership of a political party? Quote the article and less of this bland talk.
4. To discriminate against somebody on political belief of course can be allowed. How many members of the 32 county soverinity committee will be allowed into the DF? None! Why? Because of their political views! Their political views are contrary to the state and want to subvert the state. It is therefore in order to discriminate against them. Discrimination is not a bad word it means to single out a particular group for favour or disfavour, to distinguish, be discerning.
5. You need to understand what membership is.
6. I am a member of a political party (card carrying) and a member of the DF (a member of reserve).
7. No PDF soldier may be a member of a political party likewise no Garda can either.
8. Article 40 6 of our constitution should be read fully and understood before trying to quote it.

pmg58

In my opinion wrote: »

You are missing many points.

1. A reservist may be a member of a political party. A permanent member of the DF may not.
2. A member of a political party is one who pays their subscription (subscribes ) to a political party and is entered on the membership roll as a member, one who votes for or supports a particular party is not necessarily a member they are a voter or a supporter.
3. What constitutional right provides for membership of a political party? Quote the article and less of this bland talk.
4. To discriminate against somebody on political belief of course can be allowed. How many members of the 32 county soverinity committee will be allowed into the DF? None! Why? Because of their political views! Their political views are contrary to the state and want to subvert the state. It is therefore in order to discriminate against them. Discrimination is not a bad word it means to single out a particular group for favour or disfavour, to distinguish, be discerning.
5. You need to understand what membership is.
6. I am a member of a political party (card carrying) and a member of the DF (a member of reserve).
7. No PDF soldier may be a member of a political party likewise no Garda can either.
8. Article 40 6 of our constitution should be read fully and understood before trying to quote it.

Thanks you said it better than I ever could.

In my opinion

And I've also shown that the equality act of 1977 only refers to sexual discrimination.

Mentioning the Dignity Charter and A7 don't prove anything you've said.

Greenarrow is wrong.[/quote]

Equality act 77 (Correct me if I am wrong ) was dealing with the pay differential between men and women. Prior to this it was in order to quote a rate for men and a lesser rate for women.

pmg58

Well thats part of it, but its a bit broader than that, to do with not being able to advertise jobs as "men only" and the like for example.

I'm impressed, you know your law!

Local-womanizer

In my opinion wrote: »

Equality act 77 (Correct me if I am wrong ) was dealing with the pay differential between men and women. Prior to this it was in order to quote a rate for men and a lesser rate for women.

That was the old act I think,it stated women should be paid the same as men when the work is the same or equal.Telecom eireann where paying a male worker more than a female one who was higher up the ranks!She had to bring it to Europe to win her claim!Telecom Eireann werent paying her because she was doing work of higher value and not equal value.The act was amended after that afaik.

pmg58

Now thats just showing off.

Local-womanizer

pmg58 wrote: »

Now thats just showing off.

I've been studying it all week,I need to use it somewhere!

pmg58

Just out of interest, whats your take on the ban on membership of political parties in the PDF, Local-Womanizer, i.e. whats your interpretation of it, since you seem to know at least a bit about equality law.

Local-womanizer

Seems fair enough to me.Its not like you are not allowed to vote,or they are trying to stop you from voting for a certain party.

pmg58

Thanks, look like were in agreement then.

Local-womanizer

pmg58 wrote: »

Thanks, look like were in agreement then.

Yep,and this outlines it pretty clear,

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1954/en/act/pub/0018/sec0103.html#zza18y1954s103

pmg58

Nice one.

ghostwhisper

I looked into what Greenarrow was talking about about being a member of a party if in the PDF.

It is allowed. But-

1. You are not allowed to put forward any motions
2. You are not allowed vote on any motions put forward.
3. You can't be nominated/nominate for any positions either.

Which ensures that you remain apolitical and that you are not subscribing to anything either.

So really, being a member, all you can really do is attend things like Ard Fheis, meetings etc. and just go along to see what is going on.
More of showing an interest in politics really. And nothing more than that.

pmg58

Thanks ghostwhisper. Where did you find that out?

pmg58

ghostwhisper wrote: »

Which ensures that you remain apolitical

Just noticed this, seems a bit of a contradiction to be a member if you have to remain apolitical!