Magners League to adopt playoffs for 09/10 season

toomevara

....not before time, may drum up some much needed drama/meaning to the never ending grind that is the ML

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7584397.stm

Amz

Er, this was announced back in April wasn't it?

What happened to the Celtic Cup? Was that not a play off at the end of the Celtic League?

toomevara

Amz wrote: »

Er, this was announced back in April wasn't it?

I know they mooted the idea back then alright, but didn't think it was a done deal?

gcgirl

Amz wrote: »

Er, this was announced back in April wasn't it?

What happened to the Celtic Cup? Was that not a play off at the end of the Celtic League?

just what i was thinking?

buck65

The M.L will really only be relevant when the top 6 (for example) clubs make it into the H Cup.
As it is it peters out when the winner is decided.
I actually like the ML and think there were some great games and teams in it last year, one should look at the 1/4 finals of the HCup where we had Munster Cardiff Ospreys in contention. The play offs will add a bit of excitement to the last few weeks in March and April when the 6 nations and Hcup really take over.
This year will be very interesting in the ML where the Irish teams will be full strength for the start, along with some interesting signings across the water.
Also with Thomond and the RDS full for most games there should be some cracking games.
Ulster could be dangerous this year, was impressed with what Williams achieved in a short space of time.

[Jackass]

+1.

I saw ulster on bet fair at 33/1 for the ML. Well worth a punt, I'd say they'll have a great year domesitcally with Williams first full season (he had a massive impact from the start last season, turned a headless team into one of the form teams for the last quarter of the season) and also their new signings are impressive, so you never know with them.

As for the Magners League, I'll do my best to tell you all what I think is wrong with it.

Problem #1:
There is no incentive to win the Magners Leauge. And I'm not just talking about Europe here, I'm talking about financially too. I'm not sure what the sponsorship of the league is worth, and ticket sales are through the roof year on year (for the majority of teams) and the competition has really taken off, both with fan base and media coverage, but at the end of it all, there is no big pay day to compliment the glory and hard work. Or even incentives for best possible finish financially. (which would allow clubs to introduce a bonus system to players of extra X thousands amount for each higher place you manage to finish in the league. Which leads me to problem 2..

Problem #2:
The league is very poorly run by, what gives the impression of, two lads sitting in a portacabin in an industrial estate in the arse end of Glasgow with a phone and a computer between them. Marketing of the league is terrible (if you weren't a rugby fan would you know it exists, let alone that it's about to kick off on the back of any advertisements you've seen other than from clubs?).
They are not manageing the teams well enough either and giving them any reason to prioritise the league, which leads to problem 3...

Problem #3:
The Welsh.

Welsh regions have long since had ties with England on it's rugby stakes. The Anglo-Welsh cup (which was abondonned for a few years and is now know as the EDF Energy Cup) offers more to the Welsh regions than the Magners League ever could.
A mainstream tournament, very competetive, higher profile with full SKY prime time weekend coverage, massive financial incentives with sell out crowds and top teams vying for glory.

As long as the structure of the ML organisers fails to match that of the GP and RFU, the welsh sides will always consider any anglo-welsh competition as their prime domestic competition. When the Welsh regions announced they were rejoining the Anglo-Welsh tournament, if my memory serves me correctly, they were briefly expelled from the ML during the off-season for breach of contract with the league.

As a result of the impending legal mine field, the Welsh agreed they would see out their contract with the RFU and then continue the ML as their primary domestic competition and even let it decide European ranking and qualification (since replaced by ERC ranking).

So the problem is that GP & RFU would only be delighted to see ML fail and major competition for support, glory and ultimately finance by virtue of sucsess in Europe etc., so they have no problem, and infact have plenty of reason, to keep up the Welsh ties and reap the rewards and it seems the Welsh want in on this as it breeds better profile and finance.

Case in point is these play-offs. These are not being brought in until the 2009/10 season, which is the first season the WRU association with RFU is over (this coming season being the final season of EDF contract between the unions) and they serve the sole purpose of tying up the Welsh domestic calender so that they can't play multiple domestic competition as they may have end of season commitments.

In response, the RFU, with positive feedback from WRU, have proposed a new, 2 tier Anglo-Welsh competition to commence that season, yet ever more moving in the direction of a 2 tier league competition (alarm bells) and the Welsh have even gone as far as to reinstate a 5th region (which would then fill their quota for the top tier league) and the welsh semi-pro domestic teams go into the second tier.

The potential outcome:
Unless the ML can compete with RFU and GP, the league will essentially collapse without full Welsh involvment, as we'll be back to interpros with 2 failing Scot teams with no fan base thrown into the mix.

Also, for the likes of Munster (who's fans will disagree) do take it seriously to an extent. But the attitude of not caring about it really is biting of your nose to spite your face.

To win the HEC you have to play 9 games. Even if you win the cup (as with last season), only 3 of those games might be at home.

Now Munster as a professional team, on a financial basis alone, can not survive or maintain their standards on the revenue of 3 home games a season. (ticket sales being the main source of revenue for all teams followed by merchandising which is commisoned).

Neither could they keep their players match fit and sharp without the competition as there is a good few months between pool stage and QF stage alone.

Essentially, none of the Irish provinces can compete in Europe on a financial and performance scale without the ML, so it is absolutely vital that the competition florishes.

The Solution:
Get the Welsh 100% on board. To do this, the profile of the league needs massive investment and the whole structure needs to be revamped and the unions need to take control rather than Celtic Rugby inc. based in Glasgow. With that clout behind the league it can thrive.

European structure needs to change. Whether it is to expand the league (although 4 teams need to be stabalised first both on the field and financially & structurely - Connacht, Dragons, lesser extent Edinburgh & Glasgow) or to reduce HEC to only 4 teams from ML, GP & T14 + 1 Italian and expand the second tier European competition for the rest.

Keep the fans positive and get behind the league. It fans get this message and see that the quality of rugby for some of the teams is superb and the likes of Mafi played every single game for Munster in ML last season bar 1, that decent teams are put out week in week out (see Leinster Munster last season, 2 great teams with full 15 out on both occasions) and let the league drop it's reputation of being a joke as it once was. It's been refined now with less games, much better facilities accross the board and much higher quality of rugby and really is a quality competition that needs some things internally sorted out but also needs acknowledgement of how far it's come.

[/rant] wow...I started going and I just couldn't stop!!

Podge_irl

I hate playoffs. A league is a bloody league.

[Jackass]

Incidently, interesting article in the Hearld addressing some of the points made above.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headlines/display.var.2434529.0.Lets_get_this_straight_the_Magners_League_is_the_best_in_Europe.php

Let’s get this straight: the Magners League is the best in Europe
KEVIN FERRIE - August 28 2008

No sooner was the floor thrown open to questions at yesterday's Magners League launch than a London-based journalist asked what tournament organisers planned to do to ensure that teams put stronger sides on the pitch to enhance its overall credibility.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt and presuming he was not simply pursuing the agenda of trying to represent Celtic competition as inferior to that in England, then presumably he had not been paying attention.

In the course of the previous few minutes we had been told that "in every match-day 22 last season in the Magners League there was an average of 10.8 fully capped international players, the highest proportion of Test players of any professional league in the world." That compared with 9.5 in the English Premiership, 8.5 in France's Top 14 and 8.3 in Super 14.
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When it comes to comparing competitions it is difficult to get away from subjectivity which is where, for all their damnable capacity to be misused, statistics can be very useful.

In that regard, then, in terms of competitiveness it was also interesting to have it pointed out that the average winning margin in the Celtic tournament was again a world-leading 11.13 points, closer than any other professional league, including the supposedly ferocious English Premiership.

Furthermore it was also noted that there were five different champion teams in its first six years of full league competition, Leinster, Munster, Llanelli Scarlets, the Ospreys and Ulster. It took 13 years for the English league to produce that many different champions and 17 years in France, while Super 14 has only produced four in 13 years to date.

Yet the Celts tend to be their own worst enemies in terms of getting all of that across.

Part of that was demonstrated this week with the the Welsh Rugby Union's ill-timed announcement, immediately ahead of this season's Magners League launch, that they have entered into discussions with English clubs about extending the Anglo-Welsh competition.

As in cricket, where Wales has a greater pool talent than Ireland or Scotland yet is prepared to be anonymous as its players turn out only for England on the international stage, there seems to be an identity crisis at play there. The Welsh seem torn between seeing themselves as an English region and being a Celtic nation.

Yet far from criticising them for that, and at the risk of introducing politics to a sports discussion, the Scots and Northern Irish could be accused of the same thing. A debate is ongoing as to whether Celtic countries should be allowed to have their cake and eat it, with supporters seeking to be 80- or 90-minute sporting nationalists, sports administrators claiming equal or in many cases - not least rugby - superior voting power to those in real countries, while we cling to English wealth and power in all other spheres.

A side effect of that is a tendency towards a rather subservient mentality when negotiating with London-based sponsors and broadcasters. In the face of the propaganda spouted by those promoting English rugby, most blatantly on Sky TV but also on the so-called British Broadcasting Corporation, the response among sports administrators and the media in the Celtic countries leans towards deferential.

Celtic sides are currently the Six Nations, European and Anglo-Welsh champions. Yet rather than trumpet that at every opportunity and use it to embarrass broadcasters who are failing in their public service duty when, for example, preventing Scottish people from witnessing a historic win for the national side over Argentina this summer, there is an inclination to point towards negatives.

A change of mindset is required.

Rather than worry about lack of relegation, then, how about taking into account the experience of Sean Lineen, the Glasgow Warriors coach. For some years the Kiwi-raised, born-again Scot has found that southern hemisphere players increasingly want to come to Celtic teams because they see that very absence of relegation as contributing towards what they see, when it is beamed across the planet, as a more attractive brand of rugby than England's Premiership.

Tie that in with the superior quality of the players involved and the greater intensity of matches, then if the statistics - supplied, incidentally, by English-based Stuart Farmer Media Services - are to be believed, the Celts are producing the outstanding league product in European rugby.

Conditioned as we are by what is beamed into our homes, many Scots will have great difficulty in accepting that. That, in turn, is all the more reason that our politicians and sports administrators should be screaming blue murder about the institutionalised bias we are subjected to by those with the power to dictate what we are watching.

toomevara

Really interesting thread, some excellent contributions. Forced me to re-evaluate my position on the ML, which I have to admit, I just don't rate. Much prefer the GP. However, as I'm living in Engerland, I don't see enough of the games (no Setanta).

On foot of this discussion, this season I'm going to get Setanta in, watch it regularly and give it a fair go. If I'm wrong and I am, as some posters have suggested, missing the best rugby in Europe, I'll be the first to admit it...watch this space....(if you can be arsed)

[Jackass]

To put it in context though, I think the above artilce is really highlighting the fact that if we talk up our league like the English do their own, we have the ammo to claim we have the best league in the world (or Europe). - Obviously it's slightly hypothetical - I don't think anyone would claim the ML IS conclusively the best in Europe. (another stat he left out was that the ML has been the most represented league in the world at the last 2 World Cups.)

O'Gara made the interesting point before Munsters trip (and victory) to Leicester that the English talk up their own game so much but many Magners League teams are up there too, and he was right.

Where as here we talk down our league so much.

The truth is that Magners League is probably not as good as GP for the simple reason that there is probably more depth to the GP (although I mostly only ever see the top 4 or 5 GP teams in action), as teams like Connacht, Dragons, Glasgow & Edinburgh (and even Ulster for a portion of last season) have produced some pretty poor stuff on a varying scale.

But every season, not trying to roll out a clichè, the league has gotten better and better, and this season I really think the quality of Connacht will improve as they have made some really decent signings, I think Ulster will have a big season and have made some great signings, (and now the 2 props who started and won the last world cup final play in ML), Edinburgh under Robinson have come on to be a genuinely good team now and have run Leicester and particularly Tolouse close last year at home, Dragons and Glasgow are the lowest imo and need serious work, but in all leagues you get that.

For someone who was in Lansdowne Road back in 2002 for the first ever Celtic League finally, I've been an avid follower ever since and I've seen the dark days where some of the teams and displays put out were an absolute joke.

This was the complete oversight again, of Celtic Rugby inc., who had penned in fixtures for Six Nations weekends (and all through the periods of players being away on international duty) and also Heineken Cup weeks.

I was very close to losing all interest in it at one point having already been drawn in and many people did lose interest as a result and others simply looked at it once and decided never to look at it again, and to an extent I can't blame them.

But the league has changed dramatically since then. Especially over the last 2 or so seasons.

Firstly the clash of competitions has gone (and completely gone from this season on) so teams being put out week in week out were the same teams played in big Heineken cup fixtures, making allowances for the fact that it's a league competition and squads are rotated, for example Wayne Rooney or Fernando Torres don't play EVERY week for their soccer teams in England, and on or two players can be rested before a big European week, but as pointed out above, on average about 10 or so internationals and mostly 12, 13, 14 of the full team are on the field week in week out, and for big games (interpros/derbys) the best 15 is always on the field.

Added to that, the facilitys have greatly improved. I remember the days of going to Donnybrook with 2,000 people in the ground and you might as well be going to a schools match (except with less people there) as the quality on and off the pitch was terrible.

Since then, 7 of the 10 sides in ML have invested or are investing heavily in their ground or have moved completely and improved their facilitys 10 fold. Now days, you can expect to find the best quality grounds in any club rugby competition around such as:
Cardiff
Ospreys
Dragons
Llanelli Scarlets
Munster
Leinster
Ulster

I don't know what Connacht are going to do, they may move to Mayo or away from Galway to get punters in, but hopefully the IRFU will find some owned ground that they can invest in or some sort of ground share as they need to build up their fan base. Edinburgh are due a move at some point in the near future and have one or two options in their city. Glasgow seem content but could use some investment.

The point is the league has come such a long way. And it's not there yet, but it's really getting there. Any of the Irish interpro games are always great spectacles with full houses. Same with Wales. And some of these games are as good (for quality) as you'll see anywhere in Europe, better even.

Also there are some good league rivalrys developing outside of nations, with Munster/Ospreys for example or Leinster/Edinburgh (just can't beat them over there!!!).

Dont forget on relative terms, this is also such a young competition, still finding it's feet and attendence figures have been growing massively 10 - 15% each year as it's popularity grows. Even the HEC is an older competition, let alone the long standing English and French competitions - rebranded, but have built up decades of momentum.

I didn't realise I was so passionate about it until this thread! haha, but I suppose, like all of us, we want the best possible position for our teams to be in, and I think we're neglecting such a major part of our game, the foundation of our game without realising it, and the ironic thing is that it's so self defeatest and unescesarry, because if you look at where it's been, where it is now and where it's going, it's actually a damn good competition and is fast developing into a top quality league.

I truly believe that anybody who gives this league a chance (and true fans of rugby and their team) will see what it's become and not turn away, not to mention all the new supporters coming into the game now, I can particularly say in Leinster, coming to support their team week in week out on the back of the quality of the league. (10,000 season tickets sold for a 18,500 capacity stadium this season - up from 6,800 last season).

Conbro

I hate playoffs. A league is a bloody league

+1 Having a team that fiishes fourth out of a league of 10/11 clubs would be a tad ridiculous

NotWormBoy

Excellent posts, Jackass, excellent.

I've been going to ML games intermittently for the last three or four years, until this year I've usually gone to about 5 or 6 of Leinster's home games a season. Haven't had the money (student) to travel with the team, but I hope to change that this season. The only other problem is that much as I love rugby, I love scouts even more, so I can't guarantee that I'd get to head to all the weekend-based games - so I can't really buy a season ticket and hope to get the most out of it.

I do believe that the GP is, thus far, superior to the ML, but I know which one I watch more too. And the ML is closing the gap fast, as Jackass has said far more eloquently and passionately than I could.

themont85

Excellent posts here. I particularly agree with the fact that the ML is such a young league. The GP has all the appropriate grounds, 10-15000 for each game alligned with Sky Sports backing with promotion and numerous camera angles, which gives it a far more aesthetic look than say an Edin game played in front of 3 or 4000 in a souless Murrayfield. The quality of rugby can be the exact same but the casual obserever would be far more likely to watch the GP game. The ML really needs to encourage broadcasters, sponsers and team managment to improve the look of the league.

mousey007

I cant wait for the league to start personally,I think it will be a close run affair and the play-offs will bring an exciting ending to it.It'll be a nice excuse to stay in tomorrow night and watch a couple of games