Overtaking on the Left. Legality of.

McCrack

Can i just get this clarified once and for all. What is the legal position where somebody overtakes on the left on a dual carriageway, motorway or buslane (when they are premitted to use it). I'm specifically talking about when traffic may be light and a vehicle is sitting in the overtaking lane. The overtaking driver is also not exceeding the speed limit when overtaking on the left.

The rules of the road seem to indicate it's permissable when traffic is moving slowly in the overtaking lane but I know the rules are only an interpretation of the law.

Could somebody clarify and if possible reference it to road traffic legislation.
Thanks in advance.

Eru

This was argued before. There is no law stating that you cannot 'overtake' using the left lane however I dont think the manouvre qualifies as overtaking. You are in fact simple changing lanes twice.

Overtaking involves crossing the white lane into a non existent lane such as the wrong side of the road. It is stated that you dont undertake (overtaking on the left) as this would involve entering the hard shoulder, path, etc. You are not doing this on a dual carraigeway.

Put it another way, if you cant go past a car using the left lane does this mean all traffic in the left must slow down to at most match the right lane even if there is nothing in front of you? Of course not.

People believe that you cannot overtake using the left and that you should only use the right lane to overtake however neither side is defined in law and both are equal.

The rules of the road are attempting to educate people in good practice and driving however you are free to ignore them.

Having said that it is illegal to impede the flow of traffic and in cases where there is no traffic in front of you but traffic behind you, you are obliged to allow traffic to pass you within the speed limit where you are travelling at a lesser speed. Trucks that are limited to 80 but in a 120 zone being a prime example.

Fyr.Fytr

And they can get point for being in the "right most lane" of a motorway, never seen them being done for it though.

Honey-ec

Karlitosway - thank you! I tried to explain to someone in Motors that passing someone on the inside lane on a dual-carriageway/motorway isn't undertaking, and was practically tarred and feathered for it!

Eru

Honey-ec wrote: »

Karlitosway - thank you! I tried to explain to someone in Motors that passing someone on the inside lane on a dual-carriageway/motorway isn't undertaking, and was practically tarred and feathered for it!

The problem with the motors forum is that it has a select couple of users that have issues and simple cant accept that they could be wrong and in fact, dont know everything. Mature posters can reliable use data to prove a point and accept when they are wrong not simple resort to chilidish tactics.

Thats why I try to avoid posting there (I read it a fair bit as Im often looking for advise concerning my car or my girlfriends), because I know the same old idiots will just recycle the same crap time and time again when they see a Garda posting and destroy the decent threads that others are actually posting in.

Del2005

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

This was argued before. There is no law stating that you cannot 'overtake' using the left lane however I dont think the manouvre qualifies as overtaking. You are in fact simple changing lanes twice.

Overtaking involves crossing the white lane into a non existent lane such as the wrong side of the road. It is stated that you dont undertake (overtaking on the left) as this would involve entering the hard shoulder, path, etc. You are not doing this on a dual carraigeway.

Put it another way, if you cant go past a car using the left lane does this mean all traffic in the left must slow down to at most match the right lane even if there is nothing in front of you? Of course not.

People believe that you cannot overtake using the left and that you should only use the right lane to overtake however neither side is defined in law and both are equal.

The rules of the road are attempting to educate people in good practice and driving however you are free to ignore them.

Having said that it is illegal to impede the flow of traffic and in cases where there is no traffic in front of you but traffic behind you, you are obliged to allow traffic to pass you within the speed limit where you are travelling at a lesser speed. Trucks that are limited to 80 but in a 120 zone being a prime example.

That's a very good explanation, but I think you'll need to send it out to the rest of the force. I asked a Garda about this a few years ago and he said that you had to stay behind and wait for the person to pullover.

I'll have to print this out in case I ever get stopped.

Eru

Del2005 wrote: »

That's a very good explanation, but I think you'll need to send it out to the rest of the force. I asked a Garda about this a few years ago and he said that you had to stay behind and wait for the person to pullover.

I'll have to print this out in case I ever get stopped.

And my point is proved!

deadwood

Similar thread on AAM. It seems the offending Garda (who is prosecuting her for dangerous driving for o/taking on the inside) told the driver she should flash her lights until the slow moving foreign vehicle moved to the inside lane. Nice.
Hmmm.

Eru

deadwood wrote: »

Similar thread on AAM. It seems the offending Garda (who is prosecuting her for dangerous driving for o/taking on the inside) told the driver she should flash her lights until the slow moving foreign vehicle moved to the inside lane. Nice.
Hmmm.

Pardon me? :eek:

Esel

Maybe Motors needs a Thread Watch now?

I want to hear Joker's considered opinion on this issue.

deadwood

Del2005 wrote: »

I'll have to print this out in case I ever get stopped.

"but guard, it's okay to do it. The lads on boards.ie said so - look, i've a print out right here.."

"Well sorry to have troubled you sonny. That's an iron-clad case you have there. Oh, and here's me without my cap on - it's a good thing I didn't try to arrest you!"

Steve

The actual legislation is here:
S.I. No. 182/1997 — Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations, 1997

Which has me confused as it seems to clearly contradict what Karlito is saying.
Has there been cases of this before the courts?

The only ambiguous bit is 'slow moving' as it is not defined anywhere and I presume is open to interpretation by a judge.

Overtaking

10. (1) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, if to do so would endanger, or cause inconvenience to, any other person.

(2) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, unless the roadway ahead of the driver—

( a ) is free from approaching traffic, pedestrians and any obstruction, and

( b ) is sufficiently long and wide to permit the overtaking to be completed without danger or inconvenience to other traffic or pedestrians.

(3) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, on a stretch of roadway on which traffic sign number RUS 014 [no overtaking] has been provided.

(4) Subject to the provisions of sub-article (5), a driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so.

(5) A driver may only overtake on the left—

( a ) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,

( b ) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to turn left at the next road junction and has signalled this intention,

( c ) in slow moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

Eru

No, thats exactly what I said about overtaking and undertaking.

On a dual carraigeway YOUR NOT OVERTAKING, your changing lanes. Anyone with some brain cells and a little time, just use common sense and actually think about it for a minute. There are roads with 1 lane, 2 lanes and 3 lanes, some are one-way some are two-way. Different bloody rules apply depending on what type of road your on for gods sake.

Steve,
Read part 10 (1)B, how can traffic be appraching you in the right lane on a motorway? Think about it. Its clearly talking about a single lane two-way road where you cross to the wrong side of the road when overtaking.

Now look at the last part, part c. Clearly thats what applies on a motorway

Lets examine this; how can you overtake on the left if the car on the right should not be using the 'overtaking' lane in the first place? If you drive in a straight line and the car beside you is slower you have to slow down therefore blocking TWO lanes because one person is driving slowly? What people are suggesting doesnt make any sense!

McCrack

Firstly thanks for all replys to this.

At the outset I probably should of used the words 'pass' instead of 'overtake' as this seems to have caused some contention.

I'm not being pedantic but to be fair to SteveC I do think that it is correct to use the word 'overtake'. The legislation that he quoted does say that a driver should not 'overtake' in certain circumstances and then it goes on to state when a driver can 'overtake' on the left and if you look at part (c) of that it says
"in slow moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle."

I interpret that as describing a dual-carriageway or motorway and it is permissable to 'overtake' on the left when traffic in the right lane is moving slower than that of the driver in the left lane.

I think this has answered my question.

Esel

I still plan to follow my own logical, reasonable interpretation of the regulation, and consider that passing a vehicle on the left is only allowed as stated. 115km/h is not 'slow moving traffic' by any stretch of the imagination. Neither is 95km/h, or 75km/h, for that matter. The fact that a driver, or drivers, are probably breaking the law by remaining in the overtaking lane without cause would not entitle me, or any other normal road user, to pass them on the left except as described in the legislation.

Whether or not I would pass on the left in the circumstances we are discussing is a separate issue.

yayamark

I think legislation like this is here to stop the lunatcis that you see on a motorway using the 3 lanes to get past traffic ie weaving in and out of all traffic in front of them.

if a car in front of you fails to move into the left hand lane to let you pass then common sense you may pass on the left if it is safe.

Eru

esel wrote: »

I still plan to follow my own logical, reasonable interpretation of the regulation, and consider that passing a vehicle on the left is only allowed as stated. 115km/h is not 'slow moving traffic' by any stretch of the imagination. Neither is 95km/h, or 75km/h, for that matter. The fact that a driver, or drivers, are probably breaking the law by remaining in the overtaking lane without cause would not entitle me, or any other normal road user, to pass them on the left except as described in the legislation.

Whether or not I would pass on the left in the circumstances we are discussing is a separate issue.

So if Im doing 75km on the motorway which is 120 limit you will sit there blocking the left lane just because you dont think your allowed do 80?

Steve

Karl, is what you posted your personal opinion on the matter or is it based on on professional experience. That's a genuine question and I'm in no way trying to be a smartass by asking - I'm just having a hard time, having read the ROTR and associated legislation, accepting that it's not illegal to 'undertake' / 'overtake on the left' / 'change lanes and drive faster' / whatever way you want to phrase it.

Is there any actual case law on this?

Marcus.Aurelius

SteveC wrote: »

Karl, is what you posted your personal opinion on the matter or is it based on on professional experience. That's a genuine question and I'm in no way trying to be a smartass by asking - I'm just having a hard time, having read the ROTR and associated legislation, accepting that it's not illegal to 'undertake' / 'overtake on the left' / 'change lanes and drive faster' / whatever way you want to phrase it.

Is there any actual case law on this?

None that I am aware of. As far as I know, Karlitosway is correct in his interpretation of the law. There is no legislation per se, that prohibits undertaking on a motorway. The fact that ridiculously bad manners exhibited by the vast majority of irish drivers by driving in the overtaking lane continuosly while not achieving the limit or overtaking necessitates that they be undertaken at times.

We've blue-d and two-d quite a few cars out of the overtaking lane, only to see them jump straight back out after we pass, holding the traffic up again. I've had a lot of very serious chats with such motorists. I'm dying to see the govt create a "Keep left unless overtaking" law with a hefty fine to teach the ignorant pigs some manners.

But still, there is no prohibition in law against undertaking on a motorway per se.

Steve

Karlito & Joker I see your point and thanks for the info, however...

deadwood wrote: »

Similar thread on AAM.

I've been following this thread and the OP was given a FPN for "dangerous overtaking" (having spoken with the guard and reduced it from a dangerous driving charge).
I won't post specifics as it may breach the charter but you can read it here:
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=695840

Esel

SteveC wrote: »

Karlito & Joker I see your point and thanks for the info, however...



I've been following this thread and the OP was given a FPN for "dangerous overtaking" (having spoken with the guard and reduced it from a dangerous driving charge).
I won't post specifics as it may breach the charter but you can read it here:
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=695840

SteveC: I just read the whole thread, and I see the Garda has now decided not to presecute for dangerous driving, but will be seeking penalty points for dangerous overtaking. I don't want to go to the bother of registering there just to make one post; so maybe you would consider making my point for me, please?

The driver was planning to leave the motorway at the next exit (from where the Garda observed her), so passing on the left was actually legal in this situation. I would hesitate to advise the driver to go to court on this basis, however, if it was me, I think I would. Especially when the Garda had told her the proper thing to do was to sit behind the other car and flash the lights! Some very good courtroom behaviour advice on that thread from 1John, too.

Esel

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

So if Im doing 75km on the motorway which is 120 limit you will sit there blocking the left lane just because you dont think your allowed do 80?

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post. The three speeds I referred to were, in each case, 5km/h lower than the speed limits on motorways, most dual carriageways, and some other roads. So, to answer your question: No, if you were doing 75km/h in the overtaking lane on a motorway, I wouldn't block the left lane.

I was interested to read Joker's agreement with your opinion on this issue. However, I still feel that it is probable that many Gardaí would not share this opinion - the thread on AAM that SteveC linked as an example. I feel that the majority of drivers would probably not contest penalty points in this scenario due to the risk of getting double points if found guilty by the judge. Many would probably contest a dangerous driving charge, considering the ramifications of a conviction.

I suppose every case is unique, and that if someone is going to pass on the left in the situation we are discussing, they should proceed with caution, and only after waiting (and flashing the lights once or twice at most) to see if the other driver will move to the correct lane to make way. I would definitely agree that simply approaching at higher speed in the overtaking lane and proceeding to pass the slower car on the left without reducing speed or waiting for them to move out of the lane would be dangerous driving.

Eru

Esel,
I would agree, each situation is unique and depends on a lot of factors. 115 in a 120 zone is close enough to the limit that anyone overtaking would more than likely be exceeding the limit and personally I wouldnt be going faster than that anyway.

Steve,
The situation as described by yourself is a strange one, without knowing the facts of the case its possible that the OP changed lanes without indicating, checking mirrors or allowing space between vehicles. For all we know the person could have been flying up the right lane and then 50 metres before the exit flew across 2 lanes without any warning forcing other cars to hit the brakes or swerve. That would be some of the things that I would consider necessary to result in a prosecution. Im not saying thats the case, just a possible scenario.

Also, dangerous driving requires DPP's consent to prosecute so the Garda couldnt have started a prosecution for this without the dpp seeing a file and directing that charge.

Joker,
I bet your a right traffic hitler

Honey-ec

I'm actually amazed that the Guard in question on the AAM thread actually advised someone to keep flashing the driver in question until they moved over. In my experience, flashing a driver who's doing under the limit usually results in being brake-tested, which is why I am extremely reluctant to do it.

deadwood

Joker wrote: »

I'm dying to see the govt create a "Keep left unless overtaking" law with a hefty fine to teach the ignorant pigs some manners.

You saw this one coming, surely?:D

Steve

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Steve,
The situation as described by yourself is a strange one, without knowing the facts of the case its possible that the OP changed lanes without indicating, checking mirrors or allowing space between vehicles. For all we know the person could have been flying up the right lane and then 50 metres before the exit flew across 2 lanes without any warning forcing other cars to hit the brakes or swerve. That would be some of the things that I would consider necessary to result in a prosecution. Im not saying thats the case, just a possible scenario.

It's true that without being there, we can never know the full story.
I looked up the 'dangerous overtaking' penalty and it's covered by the 2002 RTA. It's described as an "Offence consisting of contravention of article 10" (Atricle 10 being what I posted earlier).
This just does not fit in with the description of events that the OP gave which, if true, doesn't look like there was any danger or inconvenience caused.
As you said, there could be other factors but there are other offences that cover them (e.g. Article 8 covers lane changes and the offence is described as "Failure by vehicle to yield right of way" and carries 2(4) points)
I'd love to see this one if it went to court - I guess we'll never know for sure though.

the locust

I think your putting your own interpretation on the legislation.

I have a friend who was done by Gardai for 'driving' in the 'overtaking lane' by traffic cops. i.e. the faster lane on the far right its for overtaking, the other is for driving, unless in slow moving traffic.

This is part of your obligation to drive on the left, as set out in Road Traffic Byelaws 1997 -
Obligation to drive on the left - in such a manner to allow without danger or inconvience to traffic or pedestrians, approaching traffic to pass on the right and overtaking to overtake on the right.

I think that not only covers single roads but also motorways and dual carriageways

The only time you can pass on the left is when outlined in 10.5 a,b,c,
Its an FCPS offence to pass on the left otherwise and to drive in the overtaking lane.

Eru

the locust wrote: »

I think your putting your own interpretation on the legislation.

I have a friend who was done by Gardai for 'driving' in the 'overtaking lane' by traffic cops. i.e. the faster lane on the far right its for overtaking, the other is for driving, unless in slow moving traffic.

This is part of your obligation to drive on the left, as set out in Road Traffic Byelaws 1997 -
Obligation to drive on the left - in such a manner to allow without danger or inconvience to traffic or pedestrians, approaching traffic to pass on the right and overtaking to overtake on the right.

I think that not only covers single roads but also motorways and dual carriageways

The only time you can pass on the left is when outlined in 10.5 a,b,c,
Its an FCPS offence to pass on the left otherwise and to drive in the overtaking lane.

Well can you point out where its designated as an overtaking lane in the first place?

What about the port tunnel entrance on the M1?

Our obligation to drive on the left is because we drive on the left in single lane traffic. The wording seems clear too me, drive on the left and cars APPROACHING will be on your right, as in the othger side of the road. Its also to allow cars to overtake you cleanly in single lane traffic. I honestly dont see how that can be applied to a motorway or how anyone can read it in such a way.

I will go back too my other point, if someone is doing 50 on the motorway in the right lane how can anyone believe that all other lanes cannot go above 50? Of course you can. Whats being suggested here is insanity.

For that matter, any road with multiple lanes allows people to change lanes. Your in the right lane, you change too the middle lane, then you change to the left lane or back again. Where the original vehicles are now positioned is not an issue. The only issue is that you did it in a safe manner. Too suggest otherwise means when changing lanes in traffic I am forbidden from passing the car that was originally in front of me? It also means we need to actually monitor where other cars are? 'Uh oh, that Green Micra is now 3 cars back from me, better slow down so its back in front of me again'. Now I know why Pearce Street and the M50 are so blocked up!

GreeBo

Eru wrote: »

Well can you point out where its designated as an overtaking lane in the first place?

What about the port tunnel entrance on the M1?

Our obligation to drive on the left is because we drive on the left in single lane traffic. The wording seems clear too me, drive on the left and cars APPROACHING will be on your right, as in the othger side of the road. Its also to allow cars to overtake you cleanly in single lane traffic. I honestly dont see how that can be applied to a motorway or how anyone can read it in such a way.

I will go back too my other point, if someone is doing 50 on the motorway in the right lane how can anyone believe that all other lanes cannot go above 50? Of course you can. Whats being suggested here is insanity.

For that matter, any road with multiple lanes allows people to change lanes. Your in the right lane, you change too the middle lane, then you change to the left lane or back again. Where the original vehicles are now positioned is not an issue. The only issue is that you did it in a safe manner. Too suggest otherwise means when changing lanes in traffic I am forbidden from passing the car that was originally in front of me? It also means we need to actually monitor where other cars are? 'Uh oh, that Green Micra is now 3 cars back from me, better slow down so its back in front of me again'. Now I know why Pearce Street and the M50 are so blocked up!

We drive on the left because we over take on the right.
Just because one car is in the wrong (driving on the right most lane at 50kph) doesnt mean that two other lanes of traffic can break the law. If a Garda came across this situation then the cars in lane 3 (and possibly lane 2) are the only ones who would be fined. No one in lane 1 could possibly be done for maintaining the same speed as the (two) outside cars.

Turner

Zombie thread.


And if somebody is driving at 50km/hr in the overtaking lane (lane 3) no member of An Garda Siochana will have any problem with any person passing this dangerously slow vehicle in either lane 1 or 2.

You would treat it as a hazard.


Oh and thread locked