Christianity and Alcohol

philologos

There are a wide spectrum of different views on this subject, and I was just wanting to provoke a discussion on the topic. I will add a poll, which I would like to remain Christian only if possible, but the topic can be added to by anyone.

Do you think that moderation is the principal practise in drinking? What do you consider to be "drunkeness"? And finally should alcohol be considered a "no, no" for anyone in Christianity, or is it more flexible than that?

PDN

While the Bible condemns drunkenness, it is clear that Jesus drank wine.

Moderation would therefore seem to be the biblical standard.

Splendour

Ditto to PDN's post.

Ephesians 5:18...

...Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

Note it doesn't say 'do not drink wine' but gives us guidelines on how to handle alcohol. Sounds like sensible advice to me

JimiTime

I don't even think its debateable tbh. Obviously drinking alcohol is ok. Like so many other things, its the abuse of it thats the problem. Would God have an issue with me using the internet? No, but he'd have a problem with me abusing the technology and looking up pornography. Paul even encouraged the drinking of wine. All the time though, drunkeness is condemned. I think its really that simple.

jaffa20

What about cannabis which there is no mention of in the bible Even though it was perhaps used during that period.

PDN

jaffa20 wrote: »

What about cannabis which there is no mention of in the bible Even though it was perhaps used during that period.

Cannabis was indeed used in that period. It was used in religious cultic ceremonies in New Testament times - as were other mind-altering drugs. In fact the Greek word for 'witchcraft' or 'sorcery' in the New Testament is pharmacea - from which we derive our English words 'pharmacy' and 'pharmaceutical'.

So, the Bible does indirectly refer to cannabis in its frequent condemnations of witchcraft.

Galvasean

So all those loopers were simply whacked out of it on drugs? Explains a lot.

Puck

Are you buying?

jaffa20

PDN wrote: »

Cannabis was indeed used in that period. It was used in religious cultic ceremonies in New Testament times - as were other mind-altering drugs. In fact the Greek word for 'witchcraft' or 'sorcery' in the New Testament is pharmacea - from which we derive our English words 'pharmacy' and 'pharmaceutical'.

So, the Bible does indirectly refer to cannabis in its frequent condemnations of witchcraft.

Is that not a contradiction

If they used it in religious ceremonies but it was related to witchcraft which was unacceptable i mean. Should we only consume medication in moderation also then if it derives from evil in the face of God

PDN

jaffa20 wrote: »

Is that not a contradiction

If they used it in religious ceremonies but it was related to witchcraft which was unacceptable i mean. Should we only consume medication in moderation also then if it derives from evil in the face of God

Medication does not derive from evil. The word 'pharmaceutical' derives from the Greek word for witchcraft, but medication is almost as old as humanity itself.

I certainly agree that we should only consume medication in moderation. Anyone who takes deliberately takes medication in excess (ie overdosing) is either suicidal or stupid.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

The word 'pharmaceutical' derives from the Greek word for witchcraft

Wrong again -- you really should get a better Ancient Greek dictionary!

The Ancient Greek pharma* word-family has its roots in the word for "poison" or "remedy". Page 1657 of Liddell and Scott gives around 30 words, only a few of which relate to witchcraft, so it's really quite a secondary meaning, presumably deriving from the belief that somebody who was able to administer something and actually cure an ill person must be a witch of some kind (and quite possibly in need, therefore, of some vigorous treatment themselves).

PDN

robindch wrote: »

Wrong again -- you really should get a better Ancient Greek dictionary!

The Ancient Greek pharma* word-family has its roots in the word for "poison" or "remedy". Page 1657 of Liddell and Scott gives around 30 words, only a few of which relate to witchcraft, so it's really quite a secondary meaning, presumably deriving from the belief that somebody who was able to administer something and actually cure an ill person must be a witch of some kind (and quite possibly in need, therefore, of some vigorous treatment themselves).

You'd better get on to all these guys and tell them how wrong they are then. :rolleyes:

phar·ma·cy
Etymology:
Late Latin pharmacia administration of drugs, from Greek pharmakeia, from pharmakeuein to administer drugs, from pharmakon magic charm, poison, drug
Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary

Etymology
From Old French farmacie (modern: pharmacie), from Mediaeval Latin pharmacia, from Greek φάρμακεία (pharmakeia), “‘the use of drugs’”), and φάρμακον (pharmakon), “‘a drug, charm, enchantment’”), via Mediaeval Latin pharmacia. Ultimately from Ancient Greek φαρμακίς (pharmakis), “‘witch’”).
Wiktionary

[An etymology of pharmacy in the Western languages]
[My paper] Masao Uchibayashi
Tekeda Science Foundation. Juso, Yodogawa-ku, Osaka 532-8686
An etymological and semantic history of the terms of various pharmaceutical retailers in the West in presented. Apothecary is a combination of IE * apo- (separate) and * dhē (to place) which gave rise to the Greek term apothēkē, which originally meant a warehouse for food and wine. Pharmacy is a combination of the Greek term * pharama form IE * bher- (to charm, enchant) and -(a)-ko- resulting in * pharmako- (magic, charm, cure, potion, medicine) and in Latin pharmacie.
BioInfoBank Library

pharmacy Look up pharmacy at Dictionary.com
c.1386, "a medicine," from O.Fr. farmacie, from M.L. pharmacia, from Gk. pharmakeia "use of drugs or medicines," from pharmakeus "preparer of drugs," from pharmakon "drug, poison, philter, charm, spell, enchantment." Meaning "use or administration of drugs" is attested from c.1400; that of "place where drugs are prepared and dispensed" is first recorded 1833. Pharmacist coined in Eng. 1834
Online Etymology Dictionary

robindch

PDN wrote: »

You'd better get on to all these guys and tell them how wrong they are then.

Huh? What you've kindly quoted supports my position, not yours -- have you been at the altar wine again?

Fanny Cradock

Well, maybe you are both correct.

santing

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well, maybe you are both correct.

To throw Bible references at it:
Pharmakeia: Gal 5:20, Rev 9:21; 18:23 Sorcery (ESV)
Pharmakos: Rev 21:8, 22:15 Sorcerer (ESV)
Apart from these 5 references, I can't find any other in the New Testament!

philologos

robindch wrote: »

Huh? What you've kindly quoted supports my position, not yours -- have you been at the altar wine again?

Those quotes also refer to magic and enchantment if you also read carefully.

robindch

Huh? Didn't any of you read what I wrote? PDN said "pharmaceutical" is it's derived from 'witchcraft', I pointed out that it's derived from the Greek word for 'poison' or 'remedy' which also gave rise to words related witchcraft.

If 'pharmaceutical' derived from the word for 'witchcraft', then I think most people would expect it to mean, well, something related to 'witchcraft', and not something related to what were poisons or remedies then, and are now known as chemicals or drugs.

I have to say that for folks who invest life-changing faith into their ability to derive perfect and absolute truth from diffuse, lengthy, translated, metaphorical texts which describe the invisible and the ineffable, yiz all seem rotten at reading or understanding straightforward text!

PDN

robindch wrote: »

Huh? Didn't any of you read what I wrote? PDN said "pharmaceutical" is it's derived from 'witchcraft', I pointed out that it's derived from the Greek word for 'poison' or 'remedy' which also gave rise to words related witchcraft.

If 'pharmaceutical' derived from the word for 'witchcraft', then I think most people would expect it to mean, well, something related to 'witchcraft', and not something related to what were poisons or remedies then, and are now known as chemicals or drugs.

I have to say that for folks who invest life-changing faith into their ability to derive perfect and absolute truth from diffuse, lengthy, translated, metaphorical texts which describe the invisible and the ineffable, yiz all seem rotten at reading or understanding straightforward text!

No, I think it perfectly possible that the earliest druggists were also occultists, herbalists and enchanters (the phrase 'witch doctor') comes to mind. Therefore the original word would carry meanings of both medical remedies and of witchcraft - which is certainly what etymologists indicate.

What 'most people would expect' is rather immaterial. Most people would not expect the red and white pole outside a barber's shop to represent the bleeding that took place when a patient gripped a pole during the process of blood-letting. However, given that barbers used to carry out surgery as well, most peoples expectations are confounded.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

No, I think it perfectly possible that the earliest druggists were also occultists, herbalists and enchanters (the phrase 'witch doctor') comes to mind. Therefore the original word would carry meanings of both medical remedies and of witchcraft - which is certainly what etymologists indicate.

<LOL>This is exactly what I said in at least two previous posts and quite beside the point I was attempting to make about which came first, the poison or the witchcraft

I rest my case about some posters having frightful trouble understanding simple text.