Why are NZ so much more competitve at the games?

Diamondmaker

NZ 86 medals to date over 22 Olympics and 9 this year.
IRL 23 over 18 Olympics and 3 this year.

Pop similar 4.3m NZ and 4.1 IRL.

Both have other team sports which draw the cream from olympic sports.
NZ has a world class rugby team and cricket is very popular there perhaps as rugby, soccer or GAA ere take from Athletic possibilites.

Genetic make up similar. Im not sure are many of the Kiwi Olympians Maori or not but from what I have seen, not.

Ireland is a wealthier country has greater access to regular competiton by the benefit of being in Europe.
The Kiws have a long way to go just to compete with Ozzies.

NZ has a worse climate and much of it is under snow in winter.

So all the excuses peddled here are levelled by this comparison. Whats our problem?

RoyMcC

You have more questions than answers

Diamondmaker

On this topic, yes, yes I do.

RuggieBear

I'm going to guess it's something to do with more women playing sports there and also the fact that NZ is very good at sailing.:)
What's the breakdown on their medals by gender and sport?

irish_bob

Diamondmaker wrote: »

NZ 86 medals to date over 22 Olympics and 9 this year.
IRL 23 over 18 Olympics and 3 this year.

Pop similar 4.3m NZ and 4.1 IRL.

Both have other team sports which draw the cream from olympic sports.
NZ has a world class rugby team and cricket is very popular there perhaps as rugby, soccer or GAA ere take from Athletic possibilites.

Genetic make up similar. Im not sure are many of the Kiwi Olympians Maori or not but from what I have seen, not.

Ireland is a wealthier country has greater access to regular competiton by the benefit of being in Europe.
The Kiws have a long way to go just to compete with Ozzies.

NZ has a worse climate and much of it is under snow in winter.

So all the excuses peddled here are levelled by this comparison. Whats our problem?

ok your overall thesis is correct , population is similar to ireland , both countries have a dominant national sport that isnt played at the olympics , new zealand have a better record than we do at the olympics but thats not saying much as we have an awfull record at the olympics for a 1st world country

a maori athlete won the womens shot put gold this year
while ireland is a wealthier country in 2008 in terms of gdp than nz , up untill about 12 yrs ago , nz has always been a wealthier country than ireland , it has better infrastructure than ireland in terms of roads etc and it is also has much more of an outdoors culture than ireland does as it contarry to what you believe , new zealand has a significantly better climate than ireland does
while its not as hot as australia , it gets on average better summers than the south of england does , its a fantastic climate for the most part apart from a few areas in the southern part of the south island plus wellington which is very windy

ZiggyStardust

Thats a load of crap. You can't compare two countries like that just because they have the same population and have similar circumstances.
Thats like comparing Carlow and Kerry in football. Similar population etc, and how many all Irelands have Carlow won.

Like Ruggiebear said the majority of their medals were in sailing, with alot from rowing, canoing and swimming down the years also.

gordon_gekko

ZiggyStardust wrote: »

Thats a load of crap. You can't compare two countries like that just because they have the same population and have similar circumstances.
Thats like comparing Carlow and Kerry in football. Similar population etc, and how many all Irelands have Carlow won.

Like Ruggiebear said the majority of their medals were in sailing, with alot from rowing, canoing and swimming down the years also.

been seeing you in a lot of threads always ready to jump to the defense of anyone who dares question irelands olympic performance
are you tom hickey by any chance , head of the ioc

Explosive_Cornflake

ZiggyStardust wrote: »

Thats a load of crap. You can't compare two countries like that just because they have the same population and have similar circumstances.
Thats like comparing Carlow and Kerry in football. Similar population etc, and how many all Irelands have Carlow won.

Like Ruggiebear said the majority of their medals were in sailing, with alot from rowing, canoing and swimming down the years also.

I think it's a very fair comparison to make. He is just asking why.

ZiggyStardust

My cover is blown.

No TBH, I just don't understand when people are comparing us to x and y. We have never exelled at the Olympics, and this year is no different, so why not just compare us to us at previous olympics. Untill there are major changes to our sporting setup, we will remain a poor nation when competing in the Olympics.
I hope it changes as much as the next guy.

irish_bob

ZiggyStardust wrote: »

My cover is blown.

No TBH, I just don't understand when people are comparing us to x and y. We have never exelled at the Olympics, and this year is no different, so why not just compare us to us at previous olympics. Untill there are major changes to our sporting setup, we will remain a poor nation when competing in the Olympics.
I hope it changes as much as the next guy.

judging from your posts and there all over the place , you seem quite content with the status quo

aburke

In a general sense, they have won their medal in 12 sports, we've done it in 4.

As another poster put it, while we might be economically ahead now, we were basically a rural backwater until the 1960s
[excuse the uneducated dabble in broad based macroeconomics]

This is the athletics forum - they have 19 medals, we have 6 in athletics.
Stick to athletics discussion here, please.

The Carlow - Kerry given above is the perfect analogy in this context [athletics].
History, tradition, funding - Kerry has it, Carlow never will.
Its pretty much the same in the Ireland vs New Zealand athletics comparison
Maybe Kerry - Galway might be a slightly better comparison.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_at_the_Olympics#Medals_by_sport
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_at_the_Olympics#Medals_by_sport

Diamondmaker

ZiggyStardust wrote: »

Thats a load of crap. You can't compare two countries like that just because they have the same population and have similar circumstances.
Thats like comparing Carlow and Kerry in football. Similar population etc, and how many all Irelands have Carlow won.

Like Ruggiebear said the majority of their medals were in sailing, with alot from rowing, canoing and swimming down the years also.

Yeah, my query was not specific to any discipline?

Ruggiemay have a point re women but why should they be any better at sailing or rowing?

I will post the up of the medals. PS our tally includes Michelle our former Belle....:o

Also so loing as the people "in the know", the regular posters here are content with our brave performances and continuosly defend our record, any real incentive to really shake things up may not exist. Ater all people are not demanding better performances and asking tough questions. Im not sure NZ has any real Olympic culture either!

Diamondmaker

aburke wrote: »

As another poster put it, while we might be economically ahead now, we were basically a rural backwater until the 1960s
[excuse the uneducated dabble in broad based macroeconomics]

This is the athletics forum - ..............Stick to athletics discussion here, please.
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without going on a danrous tangent of economics I think it is fair to say Ireland and NZ have always been much the same economically.
In the last 10 years Ireland has been far ahead and this not that it would be expectd, has not shown any diffrence in our comparison in the last 2 Olympics.

Im just asking a quesion and if any one can suggest as to why rather than get all upset and defensive Id love to hear it.

In the absence of any real good reasons I think we should expect to be evrey bit as competitve as them. Insetad of making excuses why we are not!

aburke

Diamondmaker wrote: »

without going on a danrous tangent of economics I think it is fair to say Ireland and NZ have always been much the same economically.
In the last 10 years Ireland has been far ahead and this not that it would be expectd, has not shown any diffrence in our comparison in the last 2 Olympics.

Assuming the funding to grass roots olympic sports was made in this time, you woud expect results over a longer timeframe, maybe 15-20 years.
But the funding still wouldn't compare.

Im just asking a quesion and if any one can suggest as to why rather than get all upset and defensive Id love to hear it.

In the absence of any real good reasons I think we should expect to be evrey bit as competitve as them. Insetad of making excuses why we are not!

I guess people are likely to get defensive when you aren't accepting the reasons given.

Tradition- This ensures a large number of athletes competing, and then the cream rise to the top... This is the same for pretty much every sport. NZ would have more athletes than Ireland [Kerry v Carlow again...]

Funding: 2 types:
Investment at grass roots levels which allow large number to take part in the events.
Investment at eltite level to get the best from your top athletes.

Many people are getting defensive, because although we haven't been draped in medals, athletics has done as well as could be expected.

This the key point - Expectations.
Your expectations of our Olympic athletes seem to be unrealistic - you want lots of medals.
You also seem to suggest we aim for the top and accept nothing less.

This attitude, extended across all sports, would mean the top 5, maybe 10 if you're generous, in each sport should compete against each other at the top level.

This attitude would mean we would withdraw our international soccer team, and probably rugby team too.

You're just going to have to accept that not all Irish sports people are world-beaters.

There is another comment in another thread which lists Irish athlete's Olympic performances compared to ranking going into the event -
eye-opening stuff if you're not familiar with our athletes.

My 2 cents - you don't have to agree.

PS. Are you taking this up on the swimming forum too?
Rowing, Sailing?
Still wondering why people are getting defensive :-)

Diamondmaker

Many here seem to be content with what we have and are trying their damndest to make excuses why we should NOT be better or as good as other similar sized nations.

NZ is all about the rugby rugby rugby more so than Ireland GAA soccer or Rugby.

The best point I have seen was from RB with regards to women in sport, but thinking of that, at least 5 ( MdB and Sonia ) of our medals came from women, over 25% so maybe thats not even too valid.

Im just observing that NZ is a pertty good parallel to Ireland and we should be saying: we can do as good as they can ...........
.........rather than making excuses as to why they are better.

RoyMcC

Diamondmaker, we could and should be doing better. However our sporting infrastructures are not good and are only evolving slowly, if at all. Get those right (as GB, a much bigger nation, is just starting to do) and we will reap the results we all want.

Expectations ought not to weigh so heavily on the shoulders of the very small group of elite athletes that we have. You are unrealistic to expect great things with the present setup.

Lobby instead for better school/club links to increase the pyramid base; for better indoor facilities so athletes of all abilities can train with quality for 12 months of the year; and for good coaches to lead the next generation of athletes.

That is not defensive, just realistic.

Rineanna

irish_bob wrote: »

a maori athlete won the womens shot put gold this year

Completely o/t, but I'm not sure Vili is a maori; her mother is from Tonga, so that's where her 'maori' appearance originates from, but not sure she is an official Maori.

thirtyfoot

Diamondmaker, we are not defending the athletes but are saying based on their abilities and ranking they overperformed in the majority. The current system does only focus on the elite and potential medal winners so your solution is not working. You need to as RoyMcC says increase the pyramid and support at developmental level. That is plain to see and the elastoplast solution you suggest which is in fact in place now doesn't work.

The reason NZ have more medals than Ireland is because they focus on development of underage and junior athletes, not like we do and as you suggest just focus on the elite and medal contenders. If we followed your culling of olympians we might have only 1 boxing medal and not 3.

This is going around in circles, yes we all know we have a problem but that isn't the athletes in Beijing's fault. If you really want to know what we can do, just lobby to get more kids playing Olympic sports and get more money to implement underage development programmes in the 15-18 year old category. Thats the answer in my opinion.

Can you answer this - if we pump 90% of our budget into maybe 7 or 8 athletes, how are the next wave or generation expected to progress?

irish_bob

Rineanna wrote: »

Completely o/t, but I'm not sure Vili is a maori; her mother is from Tonga, so that's where her 'maori' appearance originates from, but not sure she is an official Maori.

next time you jump in wearing your pollitically correct boots , check the previous posts , the op asked about the ethnic make up of the new zealand olympics team both past and present

Dodge

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Many here seem to be content with what we have and are trying their damndest to make excuses why we should NOT be better or as good as other similar sized nations

Where have you seen anyone be content with the situation, aprt from in reaction to the £everything is **** and we're crap" posts.

Read the forum outside the olympics and you'll find hundreads of threads on various issues that genuine fans of the posrt have (and I'd call myself an outsider). If someone comes in attacking the sport that most here put 100s hours a month into (in their spare time), of course they're going to defend it.

Rather than asking the athletics fans here why Ireland haven't a medal in anything other than T&F, swimming , boxing and sailing (once), perhaps you'd like to give a few reasons why you think Ireland should be winning medals in the other sports, and indeed athletics.

Whats the point in comparing us to other nations? Portugal is a western european country with 2.5 times our population. They've won 2 medals to our 3 this time. Belgium have won 2. Do these comparisons make our performance better? Nope, just like the NZ comparison doesn't make ours worse

daveyrovers

I know this has already been said but I'm just adding a +1 to the post.


If you've ever been to New Zealand and spent some time there the climate is a lot better than Ireland. Granted the south island and somewhere like invercargill can have a lot of rain but Auckland where over 1 million of the population are has a much better climate than Ireland.

If you go over to New Zealand and look at the amount of people that are out swimming cycling and running it's a sporting nation. Ireland is not a sporting nation, watching soccer beamed in from the uk on your couch on a Saturday afternoon is not sport.

Auckland
http://www.wordtravels.com/Cities/New+Zealand/Auckland/Climate

Dublin
http://www.wordtravels.com/Cities/Ireland/Dublin/Climate

Nolanger

Bet we wear more tracksuits than the New Zealanders.

Diamondmaker

A lot of us happen to know that NZ has even pretty poor rugby facilities.
It is a source of a lot of discussion when they were awarded the up comng RWC.

Based on this I find it hard to believe that they have far superior track and field faciliites than we do. Anyway I will accept it as a fact until I visit very soon.

Discussions on the difference on climate are tenuous at most.
I think also suggesting facilities are better there and therefore, NZ had a far superior set up say, 40 years ago ( for arguements sake ) whn they were still more competitive, is also a bit of a loose arguement.

Yes this is going around in circles, that a discussion and to be fair its been quite a good one in my opinon with lots of intellegent posts on both sides and not a hint of trolling or any thing against the Olympic spirit
If only every discussion coud be carried out in this manner.

And yes we are a mighty track suit wearing nation, remember the glory days of the shell suit ! Single handeely reasonsible for our Italia 90 exploits
even wore it to see the Pope !

Lirange

Diamondmaker wrote: »

NZ has a worse climate and much of it is under snow in winter.

Er wot?!!

Only at elevation and rare on the North Island. It's generally a maritime climate ... just like northwestern Europe. Very much like Ireland with summers a bit milder in the North. Australia outperforms NZ at the Winter Olympics. Though that doesn't say much because the Kiwis are a virtual non presence at the Winter Games.

New Zealand does have a great tradition in Athletics. I was hoping Kim Smith would do better in the 10 000 metres.

daveyrovers

My point isn't that New Zealand has better facilities (although they had a couple of 50 meter pools for the past 50 years we only got our first one less than 10 years ago).

My point is that if you go to New Zealand and spend a bit of time there you will notice that they are a pretty active Nation. everytime you go out there will be a 5k race on or a big swim race bike races it's just a different culture.

While our nation is been spoon fed the English Premership by Sky sports I can't see people actually getting out and doing stuff. The easy option is to go to the pub and watch two English teams battle it out.

plodder

I was involved in rowing about 20 years ago and we are slightly geographically disadvatnaged in this country, where the bulk of the population live near Dublin where the facilities for rowing (ie. the Liffey) are relatively limited.

I think it's well known what the main problem is though. The biggest sports in the country (by far) ie. the three brands of football plus hurling, are not traditional olympic sports. Two of them are not even international sports at all, in any meaningful sense.

Diamondmaker

daveyrovers wrote: »

While our nation is been spoon fed the English Premership by Sky sports I can't see people actually getting out and doing stuff. The easy option is to go to the pub and watch two English teams battle it out.

You hit the nail on the head unfiortunately I think.

Any way roll on the closing ceremony and London.

Nolanger

Diamondmaker wrote: »

and London.

We won't do much better in 2012.

Rineanna

Nolanger wrote: »

We won't do much better in 2012.

What a ridiculous statement. How in the name of God do you know? :rolleyes:

eagle eye

gordon_gekko wrote: »

been seeing you in a lot of threads always ready to jump to the defense of anyone who dares question irelands olympic performance
are you tom hickey by any chance , head of the ioc

I've seen you in a lot of threads in the few forums I visit and always disagreeing with the majority.

Nolanger

Rineanna wrote: »

What a ridiculous statement. How in the name of God do you know? :rolleyes:

I know because it's too late to change the sports system in this country for 2012. A country where boxing is not done in schools but it ends up the only sport we win medals in. A country where practically every primary school teacher is female so there is no hope of developing kids' sporting talent at a young age. A country where young people are encouraged to participate in team sports instead of excelling in individual events.

Diamondmaker

Rineanna wrote: »

What a ridiculous statement. How in the name of God do you know? :rolleyes:

I dunno........what evidence have we seen in the last 8 - 12 years to show we are capable of producing some talent let alone train and develop it effectively....

What evidence have we seen in the history of Irish athletics to expect any better in London.

I think there is more historical evidence to suggest London will be more of the same.....

Even if we implemented an amazing plan and got the best of talent into it ( assuming we are not already in the midde of an 8 year secret master plan :rolleyes: )

is under 4 years enough........??

thirtyfoot

Diamondmaker wrote: »

I dunno........what evidence have we seen in the last 8 - 12 years to show we are capable of producing some talent let alone train and develop it effectively....

Paul Hession in an event where previously the Irish record was held by a fat:D, unconditioned:D rugby player who in the twilight of his career was only kept in the team for his place kicking and definitely not his speed. Thats progress.

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Even if we implemented an amazing plan and got the best of talent into it ( assuming we are not already in the midde of an 8 year secret master plan :rolleyes: )

is under 4 years enough........??

You are right, 4 years isn't enough. The much vaunted Aussies began their program in 1976 and they became a super-power in 2000 (after another major push in the run-up to Sydney). But you have to start somewhere and along the way you will get small success stories like potentially 2012 and this will feed the progress. Programs are in place in Irish athletics and you will see that from the diversity of the team we sent to the world juniors in Poland this year. Whats your opinion of that team, do you think any of them will come through?

Do you have any suggestions yourself as with all your valid points and questions, I haven't seen a valid solution?

As has been said here before "there are many great athletes(/sports strategists/coaches) in Ireland, but none of them are playing sports as they are all sitting on bar-stools or lurking on the internet". Put up or shut up, or I'm afraid in the opinion of most on this board you'll be consigned to the bar-stool brigade. Humour me and give me the Diamonmaker Blueprint for Success.

Diamondmaker

Tingle wrote: »

Paul Hession in an event where previously the Irish record was held by a fat:D, unconditioned:D rugby player who in the twilight of his career was only kept in the team for his place kicking and definitely not his speed. Thats progress..

Who was that? Id love to know ?

I know Denis Hickie had good 100m times, was not him though.

thirtyfoot

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Who was that? Id love to know ?

I know Denis Hickie had good 100m times, was not him though.

Michael Kiernan (bit harsh saying fat!).

Hickie was fast but while not certain of his PB I think it was just sub 11 which would put him just inside the top 20 of 100m guys this year in Ireland and maybe 5th in guys aged 19 or under. Good example to show that Hickie is regarded as having blistering pace (and he did) but relative to Irish sprinting right now he would be fairly average, thats progress. Anyone know Hickie's electric PB from his junior days?

Diamondmaker

Tingle wrote: »

Paul Hession in an event where previously the Irish record was held by a fat:D, unconditioned:D rugby player who in the twilight of his career was only kept in the team for his place kicking and definitely not his speed. Thats progress.



You are right, 4 years isn't enough. The much vaunted Aussies began their program in 1976 and they became a super-power in 2000 (after another major push in the run-up to Sydney). But you have to start somewhere and along the way you will get small success stories like potentially 2012 and this will feed the progress. Programs are in place in Irish athletics and you will see that from the diversity of the team we sent to the world juniors in Poland this year. Whats your opinion of that team, do you think any of them will come through?

Do you have any suggestions yourself as with all your valid points and questions, I haven't seen a valid solution?

As has been said here before "there are many great athletes(/sports strategists/coaches) in Ireland, but none of them are playing sports as they are all sitting on bar-stools or lurking on the internet". Put up or shut up, or I'm afraid in the opinion of most on this board you'll be consigned to the bar-stool brigade. Humour me and give me the Diamonmaker Blueprint for Success.

See other thread for the Blue Print.

Re bar stool punditry.

I am a founding member of a touch rugby team in Brisbane for Exiles.
We started in Jan as 6 meeting to drink beer and kick about in the park
2 months later we had enough for a team and entered a league.
This week we have entered 2 teams, male and mixed into the spring league.
Already now, we need 3 teams for the summer league to provide for numbers.
We are about 30 now and have taken guys and girls who have never played sport in their lives and taught them how to compete in a league as part of a team and the enjoyment and experience that comes with.
There is taking part in a club and then theres getting up off your ass and setting up your own.......

Been a while since I have even been in a bar.

Snickers Man

Tingle wrote: »

Michael Kiernan (bit harsh saying fat!).

No it isn't!!! It's perfectly fair comment. But only when talking about the latter days of his rugby career. When he was 200m champion he was slim and svelte.

His pace was something that fell away with about the same alacrity that the pounds piled on as he concentrated on rugby rather than running.

And can I just say how great it was to see a little freckly fella from Galway mixing it in the 200m with all those big shiny black men.

Gives you hope for the future it does.

Snickers Man

ZiggyStardust wrote: »

Thats a load of crap. You can't compare two countries like that just because they have the same population and have similar circumstances......

Like Ruggiebear said the majority of their medals were in sailing, with alot from rowing, canoing and swimming down the years also.

Yeah. And it's so unfair to compare Ireland's performances in sailing, rowing and canoeing with New Zealand's. After all, they are an island nation with a long coastline, plenty of natural fjords and bays and abundant rivers and lakes in which to practice all these water sports whereas we..................er,...... oh bollox to it all anyway.

bo-sco

The weather in New Zealand is much better than here. It's well in to the 20's and sunny in most of the country during the summer. In fact the very north is almost tropical. Makes a massive difference as to why people are more involved in outdoor pursuits that we are here.

thirtyfoot

Snickers Man wrote: »

Yeah. And it's so unfair to compare Ireland's performances in sailing, rowing and canoeing with New Zealand's. After all, they are an island nation with a long coastline, plenty of natural fjords and bays and abundant rivers and lakes in which to practice all these water sports whereas we..................er,...... oh bollox to it all anyway.

And yes, with NZ having such a rich environment in sailing, even they are dwarfed by the Swiss when it comes to sailing waters which probably explains why the Swiss won the Americas Cup in '07:D I'd love to know the guy heading up Swiss Sailing, he is a genius!!

T runner

I think Climate/Environment wise New Zealand is a virtual paradise for training and outdoor pursuits.
Loads of beautiful trails and an excellent climate. When I visited everyone seemed to be into and very knowledgeable about sport. So they have the base.
They also have been an active, wealthy country for a couple of centuries and as we can see from the olympic medal tables the wealthier countries do in general do better. (Wealthier for a long period).
They are very pragmatic, flexible and accommodating which allow things to get done in a small country. This again may be a result of the evironment.

The contribution of Arthur Lydiard to New Zealand Athletics should not be underestimated and this would directly have influenced some of thier medals and indirectly others.
Im not surprised Lydiard was a New Zealander, if you know what I mean.

Anyway we cant just stamp our feet and wonder why we dont have medals, we need that grass roots base. This is a combination of funding and a change of culture from the Sky Sports fans. The latter would have to be there first to demand
I missed the Olympics due to holidays, but great to hear we held our own. Its getting harder and harder to do well in track although Im no expert.

There seems to be a boom of "middle class" thirty something road runners. This group might add some clout to lobby for funding and increase the pool by getting their kids into athletics.If the base increases there is more pressure/liklihood for funding. One think we can do is actively make sure there are good T and F clubs for the next generation.

conceited

Our PE teachers are ****e basically.:D