Tame urban fox looking for an education

IRLConor

I was walking home from the range this evening and spotted a fox wandering around the campus of Trinity. I was surprised how tame it was, even compared to other urban foxes I've seen. Any I've seen before scarper once they spot me but this one came closer and pretty much ignored me.

No-one's hunting them and food is relatively plentiful so I guess disease and traffic accidents are the only things keeping their numbers down. I'd be surprised if that's sufficient to keep their numbers in check. Anyone know if there are any published stats on urban fox numbers? If they're growing, are there any sensible ways of controlling them?

Click through for more pictures (none great, since it's my phone's camera and it was dark).

whitser

how do you think a pack of hounds in full cry charging down grafton street would go down with drunken revellers?

IRLConor

whitser wrote: »

how do you think a pack of hounds in full cry charging down grafton street would go down with drunken revellers?

Well, the Gardai have already seen the benefits of going after drunken fools on horseback so maybe hounds are the next step.

Oh, did you mean sending the hounds after the fox?

Jonty

Tame urban fox looking for an education?? I'd give him one in V Max Technology

NoNameRanger

Why would you think they need to be controlled in the city? I'd say disease, dogs, availability of food and traffic keep the numbers from exploding. And sure there is no game or stock that needs protecting, so good luck to them.:) They are a damn sight better to have in the city than feral cats and according to Run to da hills they are killing the cats, so fair play on them.:D (Has anybody noticed my grudge against cats at the moment:) worse than Mink I tell you!!:D)
Don't have any stats for Ireland, don't think anything major has ever been done yet. If i find anything I'll pass it on.

g'em

IRLConor wrote: »

No-one's hunting them and food is relatively plentiful so I guess disease and traffic accidents are the only things keeping their numbers down. I'd be surprised if that's sufficient to keep their numbers in check. Anyone know if there are any published stats on urban fox numbers? If they're growing, are there any sensible ways of controlling them?

It's notoriously difficult to collect data for fox populations in both urban and rural areas. Part of my Masters' was looking at an intestinal parasite in foxes and I couldn't find any published numbers at all but relied on some of the hunters who I collected carcasses from for anecdotal guesstimates. Fox numbers are almost certainly on the increase because, like you've said, they have an abundant food supply, little or no predatory pressure, and as opportunists who flourish in urban settings the expansion of the city is giving them more food and more den opportunities. Some ecologists are even saying that the increase in garden decking in city gardens is providing an ideal home for foxes!

Generally speaking foxes don't actually carry much in the way of disease, and certainly very few zoonoses (in Ireland anyway) that can be transferred from the animal to man. They'll more than likely carry ticks and fleas but once you're not in contact with the fox that's not a problem.

Controlling the fox population will also prove to be incredibly difficult as they're just such amazing adaptors. You can't cut off their food supply (they will literally eat anything - trust me, I've seen enough fox stomachs to know this!!), they're brazen and clever, they carry very little fear (cats will usually frighten the bejeesus out of them though, at least those are the stories that I get told!) and as long as there's gardens/ waste areas/ greenery they'll find a home. Afaik there's no fox-targetted poisons either, but when you start using chemical warfare for animal control there's just such a high risk of it affecting other organisms.

BryanL

the guy Prof. harris in bristol has done some studies on urban fox numbers mostly in bristol itself.
there was an article published in the bbc wildlife magazine,which stated that urban fox numbers fluctulated greatly at one stage in bristol they tripled in 5 years.but then mange struck and it was fatal to 93-100% of the urban foxes, where there was very high densities.Compared to 11% mortality in a "normal" countryside population
Bryan

g'em

BryanL wrote: »

the guy Prof. harris in bristol has done some studies on urban fox numbers mostly in bristol itself.

Stephen Harris has done some really interesting stuff. There was a brief comm. in Nature in 2002 (419, 34) where they looked at the impact of the British Hunting Ban on fox population:

Pressure to ban the hunting of foxes with hounds in Britain has fuelled debate about its contribution to the control of fox populations. We took advantage of a nationwide one-year ban on fox-hunting during the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease (FMD) in 2001 to examine this issue and found that the ban had no measurable impact on fox numbers in randomly selected areas. Our results argue against suggestions that fox populations would increase markedly in the event of a permanent ban on hunting.

Traumadoc

Eh... he is looking in the wrong place:D (UCD grads will get it)

g'em

Traumadoc wrote: »

Eh... he is looking in the wrong place:D (UCD grads will get it)

Dave Wall et al.?

meathstevie

+1 For NoNameRanger on urban foxes. They're probably one of the city's most efficient cleaning machines mass murdering rodents and scavenging all sorts of waste that's floating about. If they would cause any hassle with a couple of suburban chicken pens, pigeonlofts or budgiecages a couple of snares or terriers and a spade will sort the local problem.

IRLConor

NoNameRanger wrote: »

Why would you think they need to be controlled in the city?

I dunno, I was just got thinking about it after seeing that fox last night. I thought that the main causes of death for a fox would be predation, starvation and disease and since the first two aren't much of a problem in the city then it can't be good to have to rely on disease to stop the fox population skyrocketing, especially if any of the diseases are communicable to humans or domestic pets.

NoNameRanger wrote: »

They are a damn sight better to have in the city than feral cats

How come? What threat do feral cats pose that foxes don't? (Not trying to be argumentative, I honestly don't know)

NoNameRanger

IRLConor wrote: »

I dunno, I was just got thinking about it after seeing that fox last night. I thought that the main causes of death for a fox would be predation, starvation and disease and since the first two aren't much of a problem in the city then it can't be good to have to rely on disease to stop the fox population skyrocketing, especially if any of the diseases are communicable to humans or domestic pets.



How come? What threat do feral cats pose that foxes don't? (Not trying to be argumentative, I honestly don't know)

Well firstly and most importantly the fox is native and supposed to be here. Secondly the cats would claim alot more of our songbirds than foxes, they are simply better at it. And cats hunt 24/7 and exist in higher densities, breed all year round. They are just alot worse alright.:)

Sparks

NoNameRanger wrote: »

...cats hunt 24/7...

NoNameRanger

Sparks wrote: »

Nice one. I thought you were Mr. Serious:):):):):)

kowloon

I don't know if it's still done but quite a few of the cats in TCD were caught and neutered. Useful for keeping down the rodent populations.
Wonder if neutering the urban foxes would control their numbers effectively over killing them only for new ones to move into the territory.

IRLConor

kowloon wrote: »

I don't know if it's still done but quite a few of the cats in TCD were caught and neutered. Useful for keeping down the rodent populations.
Wonder if neutering the urban foxes would control their numbers effectively over killing them only for new ones to move into the territory.

It might, but the principal motivator for dealing with urban foxes probably comes from people who want them gone altogether. "It's OK, he's neutered and he's stopping other foxes from moving in" probably won't go down too well with someone who wants the fox gone.

We could certainly do with some more carnivorous predators in TCD though, the rats are pretty big.

Sparks

IRLConor wrote: »

We could certainly do with some more carnivorous predators in TCD though, the rats are pretty big.

To be fair, the rats in TCD are carnivorous predators. Mutant ones, from the evidence left by the one that stalked the rifle range for a week...

meathstevie

How would you rate a rat's chance of survival at an airrifle range ?

IRLConor

meathstevie wrote: »

How would you rate a rat's chance of survival at an airrifle range ?

Well, we had both .22s and air rifles available but, given that the range is so small and narrow, shooting the rats is an invitation to get a ricochet coming back at you. Also, the air rifles we have are probably at the German legal limit which means they're not as powerful as your average rat killing airgun.

In the end, poison and traps seems to have driven them off. At least for the moment anyway.

meathstevie

I know Conor, I should have inserted a smiley to mark the gist of my remark.
If a magpie flew over a clayshooting ground it would be frowned upon if you took a pop at it to say the least as well.

IRLConor

meathstevie wrote: »

I know Conor, I should have inserted a smiley to mark the gist of my remark.

Sorry for misunderstanding you. Some of us thought about that option which is why I took you up that way.

meathstevie wrote: »

If a magpie flew over a clayshooting ground it would be frowned upon if you took a pop at it to say the least as well.

It's the same with rifle shooting, although most birds seem to have the good sense to stay out of the way. The only exception was the 2007 NTSA 50m Nationals there were some birds which kept flying in front of the firing line. I'm amazed one didn't get shot accidentally, they appeared in my sight picture plenty of times.

Sparks

It was one of the more ironic bits on the judges course, but apparently in the event of a bird flying across a shooter's line of fire like that and being hit, two things happen - firstly, the shot is not discounted (!) because noone interfered with the shooter during firing, he just didn't take the environment into account (!); and secondly, if the bird is not killed outright, despite having up to eighty or more highly skilled shooters with .22lr rifles right there, they are not permitted to administer a coup de grace - instead the judge is required to locate a vet to do so...

You have to love how daft things can get in the low-probability areas

terminator2

magpies do a bit as well mmmm I wonder was that a six or a seven