Women and dating: a rant.

LegacyUser

Right... this is more of a rant than anything else and I just want to get it off my chest. If you want to comment, please do, but for me this situation is now over and the likelihood of any further progress is so slim it might as well be zero so actual advice is probably wasted. Get settled... this is quite long.

I met Clare (a pretty 35 year old brunette) in a pub a few weeks ago when I was out celebrating my friend's engagement and she was out with a mate to bitch about work. We first chatted at the bar as she was being served and she seemed like good fun. As the evening wore on, we kinda bumped into each other on the way to the toilets, at the bar etc. exchanging craic but not really stopping to chat. I later saw that her table was empty and assumed she had left. I went outside for a smoke and to make a phone call and there she was, waiting for a taxi.

I got talking to her and she was very nice. She cancelled the taxi and we went back inside where I bought her a drink and I separated myself from my friends to talk to her. For the next hour or so, Clare oscillated from being warm and funny to cold and defensive (we were both quite drunk at this stage), but when I told her she was being unreasonable and got up to leave, she grabbed my hand, apologised and asked me to stay. I sat down again and we resumed the conversation. After a short time, Clare initiated some kissing.

At the end of the night, my mates went off for some food and I stayed with Clare to make sure she got a taxi. There was plenty more kissing involved. She invited me back to hers under the promise that nothing would happen. We went back to hers and there was a load of kissing on her sofa which escalated beyond that, but there was no sex. She was very eager and it was very enjoyable. It was getting late, so I mentioned I was going to call a cab, but she asked me to stay... again, nothing was going to happen. We ended up on her bed, fully clothed where some further kissing happened and we both dropped off to sleep.

The next morning, she seemed quite embarrassed, but we parted on good terms.

A few weeks later, an acquaintance of mine gave me her phone number, so I called and asked her for a drink. Clare seemed very pleased to hear from me and agreed immediately. We arranged a date for the following evening.

The date went about as smoothly as it's possible for a first date to go. We seemed to share tastes in music and film, when she asked my opinion on a few matters, my responses seemed to strike a chord with Clare, her body language was open and inviting and things were generally great.

At this stage I'm keen for further dates, so at the end of the night, I tell her that I'm putting her in a taxi home then I'm heading back to mine. We've had a few drinks, but I don't think either of us is drunk or out of control. She insists I share a taxi home with her and we do end up back at hers. Before we get into the cab, we share our first kiss of the evening, which she seems really appreciative of.

Once her housemates are out of the way, we settle on the sofa and watch some TV. She sits with her back to mine and wraps my arms around her... quite an intimate gesture for the first proper date, but I think nothing of it at the time. Later, we progress to some kissing on the sofa and, as before, eventually I mention I'm getting a taxi home. Again, Clare says I'm welcome to stay but again, nothing's going to happen. I'm happy with this because, if I'm being honest, I'm quite keen on Clare and would like to see how this develops.

Again, we end up in her bed, her in her PJs and I fully clothed. There's more kissing and then all of a sudden, Clare breaks it all off saying that she's got baggage to deal with and can't do dating. I back off and try to get her to elaborate, but she says nothing. We fall asleep. The next morning, I try to see what this issue is. I'm more than keen to take things slowly and to build trust with her, but she's adamant that dating is off the agenda. She likes me, she admits, and has had a really good time but wants to be friends. It's not an ideal solution, but she's good fun, so why not?

We part, again on good terms, with tentative plans to see each other whereupon, Clare simply "disappeared". Calls were made and messages left, with no reply. Text messages were sent with no reply. Eventually, I sent her an email asking to see her again and I finally got a reply. She doesn't want to meet any more because she's worried than I am too invested in her and that there will be no further contact. I sent another, final message thanking her for at least letting me know. End of story.

Some things I want to rant about:

1. She likes me and is definitely interested in me beyond a platonic thing, so why is my own interest in her so bad from her point of view?
2. I think her assumption is premature – we've only had one date at this time. I'm keen on her, yes, but I was taking our meetings/dates one step at a time and had no overall goal beyond the next date.
3. Even if her assumption is correct, surely this is only an issue if I try to get her into bed every time we meet? I know how to be 'just friends' with women, even those I do like beyond friendship.
4. She needs to trust me, obviously, but isn't giving me the opportunity to earn her trust.
5. She's 35... Why did she "disappear" for a few weeks rather than just tell me what her concerns were?

Thanks for listening!

Fat Pie Lot

Jeez... that's flat out weird.

I think you're 100% on your #4. She sounds as if she needs to trust you, but is not giving you the chance. As unfortunate as it sounds, there's nothing you can do unless she calls or you bump into her around the social scene and manage to tell her these things. Are any of these likely?

It seems to me that she's telling the truth about these issues. During the first night, was there anything to indicate that she might be carrying baggage? You mentioned that she was blowing hot and cold... did she say anything?

I know this doesn't help, but it does sound as if things went really well. My guess is that these issues of hers are hard for her to overcome.

Wibbs

Hard one. It sounds like she's got some baggage alright. The hot and cold is usually a sign of it. She's naturally afraid of being hurt again. If you like her, maybe stick it out for a while and see where it takes you both. If it starts to wreck your head too much, bail out as you have to look to yourself too.

The Mighty Ken

Playing games with you mate. Everyone in their 30's has baggage and history to handle. The thing is, you should be emotionally mature enough to handle it and not bring it down on someone else's head. I'd forget about her TBH.

dazberry

Well its either:

She's was interested and now is not (the answer is in the tea leaves) - and this is her way of telling you she's not interested by going to ground -> still manages to lay blame on you by claiming you're "invested". If she was interested and you were invested she'd be loving it - so its a BS excuse.

or

She has baggage, and she got to a point (probably with all the best intentions) where baggage psychosis has now taken hold.

CLR = Cut / Losses / Run

D.

LegacyUser

Wibbs wrote: »

Hard one. It sounds like she's got some baggage alright. The hot and cold is usually a sign of it. She's naturally afraid of being hurt again. If you like her, maybe stick it out for a while and see where it takes you both. If it starts to wreck your head too much, bail out as you have to look to yourself too.

I have no qualms about sticking it out, but she's pretty much stopped contact and her last email pretty much asks for no further contact. I have no problems about being just friends, but she's calling the shots right now.

Fat Pie Lot wrote: »

As unfortunate as it sounds, there's nothing you can do unless she calls or you bump into her around the social scene and manage to tell her these things. Are any of these likely?

Yes. I agree with you, but I do not see either of these events as being likely.

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Playing games with you mate. Everyone in their 30's has baggage and history to handle. The thing is, you should be emotionally mature enough to handle it and not bring it down on someone else's head. I'd forget about her TBH.

I genuinely don't believe that she's playing games. I think this is just confusion and, to a certain extent, panic. I agree that she should be more mature though.

dazberry wrote: »

She has baggage, and she got to a point (probably with all the best intentions) where baggage psychosis has now taken hold.

CLR = Cut / Losses / Run

I think this is where it's at. Part of me would love to be able to help her though this, if there is a solution, but there's no need to C/L/R when she's the one that's effectively ended the friendship before it's begun.

sounds to me like she has some issues. i think she really does like you. and does want to have sex with you [i don't invite guys up to my bed just to kiss and go asleep]
maybe she got hurt in the past or worse, i don't know
i think this really depends on how you feel. it will take some time to get this woman out of her shell, if she crawls out at all. are you willing to wait that long for her? what do you really want from her?
unless you're looking for something serious i would leave it. it's too much effort when you could be looking for someone more accepting. you could end up hurting yourself, and doing more damage to her

Reesy

Hmmm,

My tuppence worth: If you want to try again, how about you bring her for a long walk and try to talk - gently - to her about what happened. If she's at all ready to talk about it, maybe you can together talk thru what's happening for her & agree some way to explore intimacy in a way that's safe for her and OK for you?

Otherwise, I guess what she needs is some professional help first.

LegacyUser

Deleted User wrote: »

sounds to me like she has some issues. i think she really does like you. and does want to have sex with you [i don't invite guys up to my bed just to kiss and go asleep]

Well, maybe she was looking for sex that night and maybe not. She specifically said that nothing would happen and in my book, if a woman says that, I don't try and force anything. To be honest, I was in no hurry... we had one date and things seemed to be progressing nicely until her “issues” appeared. I agree with you in that I do believe she does like me.

Deleted User wrote: »

maybe she got hurt in the past or worse, i don't know

I agree. There are past relationship issues there, but what they are is an unknown factor and as she's withdrawn from contact, it's a moot point.

Deleted User wrote: »

i think this really depends on how you feel. it will take some time to get this woman out of her shell, if she crawls out at all. are you willing to wait that long for her? what do you really want from her?
unless you're looking for something serious i would leave it. it's too much effort when you could be looking for someone more accepting. you could end up hurting yourself, and doing more damage to her

It's not a matter of waiting for her. As far as I am aware, we'll never be in contact again unless she suddenly changes her mind. I have no plans to contact her as her final message implied there would be no future. That's her loss, if I'm being blunt. I have quite a few female friends that I consider quite close and who trust me implicitly and have used me a shoulder to cry on. Irrespective of whether Clare and I ended up in a relationship or just friends or something that was physical/casual, I think I could have helped her through the issues.

LegacyUser

Thanks for all the replies.

Reesy wrote: »

Hmmm,

My tuppence worth: If you want to try again, how about you bring her for a long walk and try to talk - gently - to her about what happened. If she's at all ready to talk about it, maybe you can together talk thru what's happening for her & agree some way to explore intimacy in a way that's safe for her and OK for you?

Otherwise, I guess what she needs is some professional help first.

I think it's her call. She's made the decision and if she wants to talk, I can be there for her. If she wants to discuss a future, then I can do that too. However, her last communication, while not explicitly saying that I should never be in contact, did imply it.

I think we could have had a great time with each other, either as friends or exploring the dating angle, but we've only met twice. If she wants to back off and build walls, that's up to her.

K-9

It sounds like she wanted you to make a move for sex and you didn't. The first night and the first date screams of that. She made all the advances!

LolaLuv

I think she met you, liked you, tried to give it a go but realized she simply wasn't open to being hurt again. She was pretty straightforward with you. Tbh, I think you were a little disrespectful of her wishes when you continued to contact her (repeatedly, a little bizarre) after she made it clear she didn't want anything from you. If a guy left several messages and texts, and finally e-mailed me after I had explained to him that I wasn't ready to date, I would also think he was too invested to even be friends.

who007

PillyPen wrote: »

I think she met you, liked you, tried to give it a go but realized she simply wasn't open to being hurt again. She was pretty straightforward with you. Tbh, I think you were a little disrespectful of her wishes when you continued to contact her (repeatedly, a little bizarre) after she made it clear she didn't want anything from you. If a guy left several messages and texts, and finally e-mailed me after I had explained to him that I wasn't ready to date, I would also think he was too invested to even be friends.

Agreed.

Seanies32 wrote: »

It sounds like she wanted you to make a move for sex and you didn't. The first night and the first date screams of that. She made all the advances!

Totally!

I think the biggest mistake you made was not going for it. She prob felt guilty about her "baggage" and woulda let go of it if you hadn't been so awfully NICE. That way in her mind it was outta her control and she was just gettin swept along. Plus it woulda shown you are a man.

Similar esituation happened recently with male friend of my lady's.. Heard how they had slept in same bed and only kissed.. he was bein nice and not tryin to rush her. She was conceding to further dates. Nothing was happening. I said she wasn't gonna maintain interest or had none at the time. I was told off for saying such a thing as he was just a nice guy. That was the problem, I pointed out. 2 months of frustration later she finally got round to tellin him there was nothin gonna happen before she flew off to Australia.

***Disclaimer*** I am not advocating not being nice and polite and respectful of women.. I'm just sayin grow balls and don't be so "nice". Oh and I don't mean to sound harsh when I say that.
1. I'm working nights and am tired so can come across a bit narky sometimes.
2. I know my stuff. Cos guess what - I was in that situation so many times I look back an kick myself I never copped to it before!

Next time you meet a woman like that make sure she knows you want her clothes off, even if she doesn't want that to happen right away.

LegacyUser

This is easy.

From reading your post, I can predict you'll think this post is garbage and won't want to believe any of it. All I can say is I am truely trying to help you here. I am taking the time to type this FOR YOU because I want to help so please understand that my intentions are to help you!!


She liked you and wanted SEX. Even though she said she didn't. This is a girl thing, they will ALWAYS say that. She was hardly going to say, "COME BACK TO MY PLACE AND HAVE SEX WITH ME!!".

Two times you had a chance to have sex with her. Two times you didn't. You are now a beta male and she is not interested.

If you had of manned up and had sex, I assure you she would have been much more into you as a result as she would have BACKWARD RATIONALIZED why you HAD SEX (I like him, he's sexy, hes attractive, we clicked, we have a connection etc). Instead, she was left backward rationalizing why you DIDN'T have sex. - (maybe it's not what i want, i'm not sure if i want to be with him, i don't know where this is going, etc

You should have escalated. If you did, you wouldn't be sitting there reading this post right now.

LegacyUser

PillyPen wrote: »

I think she met you, liked you, tried to give it a go but realized she simply wasn't open to being hurt again.

That's fine, I think we agree on this and it explains why she didn't wan to date. We enjoyed each other's company, so why does it also mean she can't be friends?

PillyPen wrote: »

Tbh, I think you were a little disrespectful of her wishes when you continued to contact her (repeatedly, a little bizarre) after she made it clear she didn't want anything from you. If a guy left several messages and texts, and finally e-mailed me after I had explained to him that I wasn't ready to date, I would also think he was too invested to even be friends.

See, it didn't happen this way. She went silent after the first date but her message telling me she didn't want to even become friends didn't come until AFTER I'd sent a few messages of my own. IMO, I enjoyed her company and wanted to see her again to see if a friendship could grow, hence leaving a couple of messages/texts. It was only after I'd sent a last ditch email to see if we could arrange something that she voiced her decision/concerns.

Gemini Sister

Seanies32 wrote: »

It sounds like she wanted you to make a move for sex and you didn't. The first night and the first date screams of that. She made all the advances!

Nonsense! I've often brought a date back for a cuddle & a bit of company without sex. If she wanted it that badly she woulda jumped on the OP. Also I don't think being respectful makes him look like a beta male. I reckon she was either not too keen or more likely NOT READY. So I surmise she's either just getting over someone or (dramatic horror music here please).... still with someone!!!!

OP, if you haven't already... one FINAL email, perhaps saying all is cool, you'd still like to see her again maybe someday if she is ready but no hard feelings...

LegacyUser

Bill No Reg wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies.

I think it's her call. She's made the decision and if she wants to talk, I can be there for her. If she wants to discuss a future, then I can do that too. However, her last communication, while not explicitly saying that I should never be in contact, did imply it.

Another problem in your mindset.

It should NEVER be HER call. It should always be YOUR CALL.

Once you give her ALL THE POWER, you are effectively DONE. Any woman will even tell you that.

Forget about this chick. Try to learn from it. Being a MAN and having rules and bounderies is actually, ATTRACTIVE, to women.

You should never let a woman treat you this way (basically tell you to f*ck off) and then turn around and say, "ill be there for her, it's her choice". Seriously, do you not have ANY other options? Are you THAT DESPERATE that you will take this behaviour and lower yourself to this??

not yet

I'd go with 1,2 and 4 ah fook it throw in 3 to be safe.

On a serious note women in thier 30s have a huge amount of baggage,failed relationships, being cheated on, looking for mister right,pressure from family about marriage etc.

Let this woman know your interested but will not wait forever, Then you need to walk away.........fish, sea and all that malarky.

LegacyUser

Gemini Sister wrote: »

Nonsense! I've often brought a date back for a cuddle & a bit of company without sex.

And what about all the times you brought a "date" back for a cuddle and a bit of company and sex DID happen?? Or did the sex, "just happen".

Or did this never happen? lol,

What if the guys that sex didnt happen with, escalated the physical stuff smoothly, and sex did happen?

I suppose it "just happened".

See, women NEVER want to take responsibility for sex happening. because they don't want to be seen as a "slut" which is ingrained in them by society (which is f*cked up IMO, sex is natural).

LegacyUser

who007 wrote: »

Totally!

I think the biggest mistake you made was not going for it. She prob felt guilty about her "baggage" and woulda let go of it if you hadn't been so awfully NICE. That way in her mind it was outta her control and she was just gettin swept along. Plus it woulda shown you are a man.

Similar esituation happened recently with male friend of my lady's.. Heard how they had slept in same bed and only kissed.. he was bein nice and not tryin to rush her. She was conceding to further dates. Nothing was happening. I said she wasn't gonna maintain interest or had none at the time. I was told off for saying such a thing as he was just a nice guy. That was the problem, I pointed out. 2 months of frustration later she finally got round to tellin him there was nothin gonna happen before she flew off to Australia.

***Disclaimer*** I am not advocating not being nice and polite and respectful of women.. I'm just sayin grow balls and don't be so "nice". Oh and I don't mean to sound harsh when I say that.
1. I'm working nights and am tired so can come across a bit narky sometimes.
2. I know my stuff. Cos guess what - I was in that situation so many times I look back an kick myself I never copped to it before!

Next time you meet a woman like that make sure she knows you want her clothes off, even if she doesn't want that to happen right away.

wow100 wrote: »

This is easy.

From reading your post, I can predict you'll think this post is garbage and won't want to believe any of it. All I can say is I am truely trying to help you here. I am taking the time to type this FOR YOU because I want to help so please understand that my intentions are to help you!!


She liked you and wanted SEX. Even though she said she didn't. This is a girl thing, they will ALWAYS say that. She was hardly going to say, "COME BACK TO MY PLACE AND HAVE SEX WITH ME!!".

Two times you had a chance to have sex with her. Two times you didn't. You are now a beta male and she is not interested.

If you had of manned up and had sex, I assure you she would have been much more into you as a result as she would have BACKWARD RATIONALIZED why you HAD SEX (I like him, he's sexy, hes attractive, we clicked, we have a connection etc). Instead, she was left backward rationalizing why you DIDN'T have sex. - (maybe it's not what i want, i'm not sure if i want to be with him, i don't know where this is going, etc

You should have escalated. If you did, you wouldn't be sitting there reading this post right now.

I'm not saying that she didn't want sex and I agree to a certain extent that she did. Certainly the first night showed that she wasn't prudish, even if we didn't have full on sex. However, I stand by my actions and when she said there would be no sex, I would never push the boundaries. On the second night i.e. the date, we had been kissing in her bed for less than 30 seconds when she announced her baggage/issues. That was barely enough time to escalate into any foreplay, never mind actual sex.

The bit I do believe is garbage is the BETA MALE stuff. I don't believe this situation has arisen because I didn't sleep with her.

LegacyUser

Gemini Sister wrote: »

So I surmise she's either just getting over someone or (dramatic horror music here please).... still with someone!!!!

My own theories are that she's either getting over someone or has been hurt by someone (been cheated on perhaps) or perhaps a combination of both.

Gemini Sister wrote: »

OP, if you haven't already... one FINAL email, perhaps saying all is cool, you'd still like to see her again maybe someday if she is ready but no hard feelings...

I did send a final message saying that I disagreed with her assumptions although I was glad she got in contact and told me what they were and that I would leave the door open if she ever changed her mind and wanted to meet up as friends. I can't see it happening, but I thought it was worth the shot.

LegacyUser

wow100 wrote: »

You should never let a woman treat you this way (basically tell you to f*ck off) and then turn around and say, "ill be there for her, it's her choice". Seriously, do you not have ANY other options? Are you THAT DESPERATE that you will take this behaviour and lower yourself to this??

Why not say I'll be there for her? She seems like a nice person, she definitely was good company, and I don't believe she was being “evil”, she's just having issues. If Clare ever calls again, I'd seriously consider meeting up with her.

However, I do have other options, but that doesn't mean other doors have to be shut.

not yet wrote: »

Let this woman know your interested but will not wait forever, Then you need to walk away.........fish, sea and all that malarky.

Already done!

tbh

Bill - probably what happened is that she liked you, she did want to be with you, but something in her head wasn't letting her. It happens, and it's probably nothing personal. If you'd met her a year down the line, who knows. This is just one of those things, you were the right person in the right place at the wrong time. It happens, right?

Look, she was honest with you and didn't string you along *too* much. Forget about it mate, it's all part of lifes rich tapestry.

K-9

wow100 wrote: »

This is easy.

From reading your post, I can predict you'll think this post is garbage and won't want to believe any of it. All I can say is I am truely trying to help you here. I am taking the time to type this FOR YOU because I want to help so please understand that my intentions are to help you!!


She liked you and wanted SEX. Even though she said she didn't. This is a girl thing, they will ALWAYS say that. She was hardly going to say, "COME BACK TO MY PLACE AND HAVE SEX WITH ME!!".

Two times you had a chance to have sex with her. Two times you didn't. You are now a beta male and she is not interested.

If you had of manned up and had sex, I assure you she would have been much more into you as a result as she would have BACKWARD RATIONALIZED why you HAD SEX (I like him, he's sexy, hes attractive, we clicked, we have a connection etc). Instead, she was left backward rationalizing why you DIDN'T have sex. - (maybe it's not what i want, i'm not sure if i want to be with him, i don't know where this is going, etc

You should have escalated. If you did, you wouldn't be sitting there reading this post right now.

Have to agree with this.

You didn't push enough on the first night. Sometimes sex just happens but for that to happen you have to make it happen.

Kissing and cuddling needs to lead to something!

The second night announcing "issues" means she has had too much time to think on things.

LegacyUser

tbh wrote: »

Bill - probably what happened is that she liked you, she did want to be with you, but something in her head wasn't letting her. It happens, and it's probably nothing personal. If you'd met her a year down the line, who knows. This is just one of those things, you were the right person in the right place at the wrong time. It happens, right?

Look, she was honest with you and didn't string you along *too* much. Forget about it mate, it's all part of lifes rich tapestry.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I just needed to blow off some steam because of frustration and perhaps a bit of insight into her mind. I wasn't looking for advice on how to make this work. My own female friends have already told me I've done practically nothing “wrong” here and it's just wrong timing for me/her/us. That doesn't make it any less frustrating or annoying though!

Still, the feedback has been good to hear and the act of posting here has lessened the frustration somewhat, so thanks to all posters.

SpookyDoll

OP, simple, she is a pr1ck tease and a pretty swell headed one at that.

I wouldnt waste any more time on her, it sounds like she is getting flashbacks of an ex when she is with you.

She is using you to fill a void, happy with snogging and sleeping together but no sex.....huh.....time waster.

Wibbs

Bill No Reg TBH you sound like you're pretty well rounded in your response to this. The ball is now in her court, but I wouldn't waste too much time behind good manners, decency and affection if it's not returned. Life is too short for head wrecking. This is not a stain on her BTW, she may meet someone where this is not an issue or less so. Look to yourself though.

I will add who007's ideas are fashionable now on the back of the whole pickup artist stuff. IMHO like any idea it has some currency and may be an effective start for guys who are very backward in coming forward, but it's nowhere near a catch all. Not even close.

SuperGrover

"She sits with her back to mine and wraps my arms around her"

Sorry, I know it's off topic but I just can't figure how that worked.

LegacyUser

SuperGrover wrote: »

"She sits with her back to mine and wraps my arms around her"

Sorry, I know it's off topic but I just can't figure how that worked.

Yeah, sorry. That's a typo. Clare sat with her back to me and wrapped my arms around her. That other way is impossible unless I'm Doctor Octopus!

Wibbs wrote: »

Bill No Reg TBH you sound like you're pretty well rounded in your response to this. The ball is now in her court, but I wouldn't waste too much time behind good manners, decency and affection if it's not returned. Life is too short for head wrecking. This is not a stain on her BTW, she may meet someone where this is not an issue or less so. Look to yourself though.

Thanks. I have moved on and am rather positive. There was initial frustration because, if I'm being honest, a girl hasn't interested me as much initially in quite a while and there was plenty of potential for friendship, possibly leading onto something romantic. As I've said, I'm not closing any doors and if she calls or if I meet her again, we'll see what develops if anything, but I'm not waiting for that to happen.

sinnerboy

SpookyDoll wrote: »

OP, simple, she is a pr1ck tease and a pretty swell headed one at that.

I wouldnt waste any more time on her, it sounds like she is getting flashbacks of an ex when she is with you.

She is using you to fill a void, happy with snogging and sleeping together but no sex.....huh.....time waster.

Disagree . I think she was "living in her head" . She , like anyone her age male or female , does have baggage , maybe it was running around inside her head , waiting for you to temporarily dislodge it . So initiated sex would have been good - it would have been "in the moment" .

If you bump into her again , like how you first met her , pub / beers etc and if if there is even an amber light - GET IN THERE . I'd say you'll both be glad for that

estar

a) she was rude
b) she was hurt badly before and hasnt dealt with it
c) write it off as nothing to do with you at all, you would have been good for her, and shes a fool and dont be damaged by it.

Bill No Reg wrote: »

Right... this is more of a rant than anything else and I just want to get it off my chest. If you want to comment, please do, but for me this situation is now over and the likelihood of any further progress is so slim it might as well be zero so actual advice is probably wasted. Get settled... this is quite long.

I met Clare (a pretty 35 year old brunette) in a pub a few weeks ago when I was out celebrating my friend's engagement and she was out with a mate to bitch about work. We first chatted at the bar as she was being served and she seemed like good fun. As the evening wore on, we kinda bumped into each other on the way to the toilets, at the bar etc. exchanging craic but not really stopping to chat. I later saw that her table was empty and assumed she had left. I went outside for a smoke and to make a phone call and there she was, waiting for a taxi.

I got talking to her and she was very nice. She cancelled the taxi and we went back inside where I bought her a drink and I separated myself from my friends to talk to her. For the next hour or so, Clare oscillated from being warm and funny to cold and defensive (we were both quite drunk at this stage), but when I told her she was being unreasonable and got up to leave, she grabbed my hand, apologised and asked me to stay. I sat down again and we resumed the conversation. After a short time, Clare initiated some kissing.

At the end of the night, my mates went off for some food and I stayed with Clare to make sure she got a taxi. There was plenty more kissing involved. She invited me back to hers under the promise that nothing would happen. We went back to hers and there was a load of kissing on her sofa which escalated beyond that, but there was no sex. She was very eager and it was very enjoyable. It was getting late, so I mentioned I was going to call a cab, but she asked me to stay... again, nothing was going to happen. We ended up on her bed, fully clothed where some further kissing happened and we both dropped off to sleep.

The next morning, she seemed quite embarrassed, but we parted on good terms.

A few weeks later, an acquaintance of mine gave me her phone number, so I called and asked her for a drink. Clare seemed very pleased to hear from me and agreed immediately. We arranged a date for the following evening.

The date went about as smoothly as it's possible for a first date to go. We seemed to share tastes in music and film, when she asked my opinion on a few matters, my responses seemed to strike a chord with Clare, her body language was open and inviting and things were generally great.

At this stage I'm keen for further dates, so at the end of the night, I tell her that I'm putting her in a taxi home then I'm heading back to mine. We've had a few drinks, but I don't think either of us is drunk or out of control. She insists I share a taxi home with her and we do end up back at hers. Before we get into the cab, we share our first kiss of the evening, which she seems really appreciative of.

Once her housemates are out of the way, we settle on the sofa and watch some TV. She sits with her back to mine and wraps my arms around her... quite an intimate gesture for the first proper date, but I think nothing of it at the time. Later, we progress to some kissing on the sofa and, as before, eventually I mention I'm getting a taxi home. Again, Clare says I'm welcome to stay but again, nothing's going to happen. I'm happy with this because, if I'm being honest, I'm quite keen on Clare and would like to see how this develops.

Again, we end up in her bed, her in her PJs and I fully clothed. There's more kissing and then all of a sudden, Clare breaks it all off saying that she's got baggage to deal with and can't do dating. I back off and try to get her to elaborate, but she says nothing. We fall asleep. The next morning, I try to see what this issue is. I'm more than keen to take things slowly and to build trust with her, but she's adamant that dating is off the agenda. She likes me, she admits, and has had a really good time but wants to be friends. It's not an ideal solution, but she's good fun, so why not?

We part, again on good terms, with tentative plans to see each other whereupon, Clare simply "disappeared". Calls were made and messages left, with no reply. Text messages were sent with no reply. Eventually, I sent her an email asking to see her again and I finally got a reply. She doesn't want to meet any more because she's worried than I am too invested in her and that there will be no further contact. I sent another, final message thanking her for at least letting me know. End of story.

Some things I want to rant about:

1. She likes me and is definitely interested in me beyond a platonic thing, so why is my own interest in her so bad from her point of view?
2. I think her assumption is premature – we've only had one date at this time. I'm keen on her, yes, but I was taking our meetings/dates one step at a time and had no overall goal beyond the next date.
3. Even if her assumption is correct, surely this is only an issue if I try to get her into bed every time we meet? I know how to be 'just friends' with women, even those I do like beyond friendship.
4. She needs to trust me, obviously, but isn't giving me the opportunity to earn her trust.
5. She's 35... Why did she "disappear" for a few weeks rather than just tell me what her concerns were?

Thanks for listening!

LolaLuv

Bill No Reg wrote: »

That's fine, I think we agree on this and it explains why she didn't wan to date. We enjoyed each other's company, so why does it also mean she can't be friends?



See, it didn't happen this way. She went silent after the first date but her message telling me she didn't want to even become friends didn't come until AFTER I'd sent a few messages of my own. IMO, I enjoyed her company and wanted to see her again to see if a friendship could grow, hence leaving a couple of messages/texts. It was only after I'd sent a last ditch email to see if we could arrange something that she voiced her decision/concerns.

Ahh, that makes better sense. It didn't seem normal to me for a guy in his 30s to come on so strong. In that case, she just has baggage and none of it sounds like your fault, really. You win some, lose some, dating sucks. I can understand your desire to have a rant.

who007

Bill No Reg wrote: »

I'm not saying that she didn't want sex and I agree to a certain extent that she did. Certainly the first night showed that she wasn't prudish, even if we didn't have full on sex. However, I stand by my actions and when she said there would be no sex, I would never push the boundaries. On the second night i.e. the date, we had been kissing in her bed for less than 30 seconds when she announced her baggage/issues. That was barely enough time to escalate into any foreplay, never mind actual sex.

The bit I do believe is garbage is the BETA MALE stuff. I don't believe this situation has arisen because I didn't sleep with her.

Maybe I overstated the sex thing in my post.. sorry. But my point is probably better explained when I focus on your "couple of texts" and "final e-mail when she didn't reply" - How long did you leave between the texts? Personally if a woman didn't text me back once I'd think she may have been too busy (which doesn't bode well cos if you are interested in someone you'd take the 2mins out to text them back wouldn't you? Unless you were playing games) or the text didn't get through. If she didn't respond to a second text I'd take it as her not being interested in me and dismiss her from my mind (or efforts at least) - as the OP said - fish, seat, etc..

I agree that the OP's beta male stuff and capitalised words read straight from one of those "How to attract women" things yuo get in your SPAM email and tries to HIGHLIGHT stuff that people would REALLY like to UNDERSTAND.

who007

Wibbs wrote: »

I will add who007's ideas are fashionable now on the back of the whole pickup artist stuff. IMHO like any idea it has some currency and may be an effective start for guys who are very backward in coming forward, but it's nowhere near a catch all. Not even close.

Wibbs, I admit that's how my post sounded in ertrospect, but I don't buy into that alpha/beta thing either.. It was just experience that made me think he was being led on when he described the scenario. Dunno bout those pick up artists... not sure if dating as a hobby is really worth it!

LegacyUser

who007 wrote: »

Maybe I overstated the sex thing in my post.. sorry. But my point is probably better explained when I focus on your "couple of texts" and "final e-mail when she didn't reply" - How long did you leave between the texts? Personally if a woman didn't text me back once I'd think she may have been too busy (which doesn't bode well cos if you are interested in someone you'd take the 2mins out to text them back wouldn't you? Unless you were playing games) or the text didn't get through. If she didn't respond to a second text I'd take it as her not being interested in me and dismiss her from my mind (or efforts at least) - as the OP said - fish, seat, etc..

No worries. There was one text, one voice message and the final email over the course of two weeks. I don't think I was pestering Clare and I'd actually given up after the second contact attempt when a couple of female friends suggested a final try using a different contact method... a third strike, if you will.

I've mentioned before that I was fairly keen on making something work with Clare. With her announcement about her issues, I did want things to progress but I was wary about exerting pressure and wanted to give her a certain amount of space. I was unsure if the text didn't get through or if she was backing off because of her issues or any number of reasons that it could have been.

I feel I have to state here that I don't ordinarily make this effort. I've dated people that didn't get this much attention and not been overly concerned when things haven't progressed. Clare, I thought, was worth some extra effort and patience.

who007

ah well, the rant prob did you good and it's nice to feel that surge of interest in someone.. even for a short time

K-9

Bill No Reg wrote: »

My own female friends have already told me I've done practically nothing “wrong” here and it's just wrong timing for me/her/us.

You seem to be dealing well with the situation, however one thing, don't listen to female friends, well not all the time!

They'll tell you what you want to hear and what they think they ought to say!

LegacyUser

Seanies32 wrote: »

You seem to be dealing well with the situation, however one thing, don't listen to female friends, well not all the time!

They'll tell you what you want to hear and what they think they ought to say!

I dunno, Seanies32, my female friends have steered me pretty well over the years. Maybe it's because I pick and choose who to go to, depending on the advice I require, rather than assume all women are the same/think the same.

K-9

Bill No Reg wrote: »

I dunno, Seanies32, my female friends have steered me pretty well over the years. Maybe it's because I pick and choose who to go to, depending on the advice I require, rather than assume all women are the same/think the same.

Indeed, it applies to male and females! Friends will tell you as it is not what you want to hear.

LegacyUser

good point Seanies. Certainly isn't good listening to female friends at all. For example, if you were to ask a female friend what type of man she wants, she would say a nice guy, loyal and with a good sense of humour who cares about her etc. So why are you going out with someone completely opposite then!? lol

Fat Pie Lot

wow100 wrote: »

good point Seanies. Certainly isn't good listening to female friends at all. For example, if you were to ask a female friend what type of man she wants, she would say a nice guy, loyal and with a good sense of humour who cares about her etc. So why are you going out with someone completely opposite then!? lol

That's a sweeping generalisation to make, is it not?

LolaLuv

wow100 wrote: »

good point Seanies. Certainly isn't good listening to female friends at all. For example, if you were to ask a female friend what type of man she wants, she would say a nice guy, loyal and with a good sense of humour who cares about her etc. So why are you going out with someone completely opposite then!? lol

Sometimes women make mistakes and date people who are completely wrong for them. Men do the same thing. I think it's more a trait of being human than anything.

LegacyUser

OK, a minor update:

As I don't meet girls that often that I connect with, pretty much every one of my friends that knows about the date has been in contact over the last few weeks asking me how it went and if any progress had been made, so I've been forced to tell the tale lord knows how many times. That has been fairly cathartic (just as posting here was originally) and the frustration of the entire event lessened with each telling (plus time is also a factor).

However, today, in a majorly good mood, I was in the town off to meet a mate for lunch, when I spotted Clare at a junction. I don't think she saw me and there was certainly no eye contact, but immediately, all the frustrations came flooding back along with a nervousness and, yes, that she was still a very attractive woman that I was possibly still interested in. I didn't have time to stop and chat, but as I think she was on her way back to work, I don't think either of us had the time to stop and chat for a bit.

This is annoying because I was sure that, if we'd bumped into each other in a bar, I'd have no problems talking to her and seeing what happened. After today though, I'm not really sure. It's about six weeks since our only official date and I really should be well over this girl, but clearly I'm not. Or not as much as I'd thought/hoped.

I know the next one is potentially just around the corner and I am creating opportunities to meet new people, but given that the last one was at the end of last year and the previous one to that was... ummm... probably 2005, I'm not exactly sky high on dating confidence right now.

Again, there is no actual solution to this problem... I'm just venting for cathartic reasons. Comments are still welcome though.

Mikel

I think it may have been a mistake to go down the route of saying you could 'meet up as friends' or that you'd be there for her if she wanted to talk.
It seems to me like a last throw of the dice, and maybe like you wanted to become her friend in order to twist her arm or win her over.

littlefriend

Don't mean to be dismissive about your feelings at all but I think if you keep talking about this then you will keep the thought of her at the forefront of your mind. Just leave it behind now - you tried with her and it didn't work and you've kind of given it enough airtime without it becoming a bit of a fixation.

You did nothing wrong to her - somebody she knew before she met you did. You mentioned in your original post that the night you met her in the pub she was being abrasive towards you until you pulled her up on it and she changed her attitude. I guess that was a warning sign. She probably wanted the feeling of not being alone by bringing you back to her place but when you were there it must have been too much too soon for her. Maybe she lived there with whatever guy messed her up and it was too weird to have somebody new there?

Anyway, you sound very nice so I'm sure another one is around the corner. When you run into Clare again I really don't think you should question her about what happened between you.

When its going to be a successful relationship the beginning is never hard - there is no worrying did a text message get delivered or not[has that ever happened incidentally], there is just that delicious sense of feeling nervous, happy, scared, excited all at once.. Hold out for that

LegacyUser

I'm not sure I agree, littlefriend. Talking about it DOES help... the bit I'm angry about is that I thought I had put it all behind me only to fall in to a weird mood yesterday afternoon after seeing Clare which has pretty much disappeared this morning. I'm angry at myself (or was, yesterday) more than anything else.

Anyway, I'm sure you'r right... roll on the next one!

eveie

i think i know this women and if it is her, you had a licky escape

fasty

Bill No Reg's dating history sounds similar to mine, I tend to move in a small circle of friends and I'm a pretty quiet person so for a while I didn't get a chance to meet anyone new but lately I've been getting myself out there a bit more and actually meeting women!

I met a girl recently who is just one of the most fun to be around people ever and is incredibly good looking but I think she's still got baggage from her last relationship. I know myself when things go wrong, it can be a massive hit to your confidence and this guy really made her feel like garbage without even intending to. I can't really blame her for being hot then cold even if it is frustrating.

I don't blame you for ranting though!

missyb

I think the idea of being a "beta" male is rubbish, A woman who believes the stereo type that says all men have to want to have sex at all times without thought or else their not real men, is the same as a man who believes the setereo type that says if a woman wants alot of sex or has it or enjoys it,shes a slut,its the same generalised nonsense. I think this woman doesnt know how to make herself happy yet or is afraid of what that entails so she sure as hell isnt going to make you happy. Even if she went out with you, she seems to have so much baggage she could just randomly dump you out of the blue ,you would always be on egg shells.People have to sort their own baggage out, you cant help her with that. I think you should leave this one permanently, if you do cut contact with her and immediately she's interested, then definitely run a mile, she is just playing games and missing the attention. We all have baggage, you have to get over yourself, take responsibility and move on, harsh but no one will do it for you.

The Corinthian

OP, I'm afraid you were her cuddle bitch. She had a bad relationship experience, resulting in low self esteem and your attentions built her up again, even though she was not really interested in anything beyond this.

Chalk it down to experience. Next time you'll watch out for the warning signs and keep clear.

LegacyUser

littlefriend wrote: »

When its going to be a successful relationship the beginning is never hard - there is no worrying did a text message get delivered or not[has that ever happened incidentally], there is just that delicious sense of feeling nervous, happy, scared, excited all at once.. Hold out for that

Yeah… I reckon it happens a couple of times per month. Either I don't receive one that's been sent or one I send fails to be delivered. O2, don't you know.

eveie wrote: »

i think i know this women and if it is her, you had a licky escape

Now you've got me intrigued! Want to give me a city?

fasty wrote: »

I met a girl recently who is just one of the most fun to be around people ever and is incredibly good looking but I think she's still got baggage from her last relationship. I know myself when things go wrong, it can be a massive hit to your confidence and this guy really made her feel like garbage without even intending to. I can't really blame her for being hot then cold even if it is frustrating.

You can't blame anyone for having baggage. It's a part of life unfortunate as it may be. It's harder (for me) not to blame her for letting these feelings get in the way of something that could potentially be great whether it's a relationship or a friendship. If she's going to effectively run away each time she encounters something she thinks is a problem without giving anything a chance (and I think this is the case here, putting the brakes on dating then again on the friendship), then she's not going to move forward IMO.

She's going to be the one who, in 6 month's time, will be looking back thingking "what if?", not me. I've been there and that's one of the worst feelings in the world.

missyb wrote: »

I think this woman doesnt know how to make herself happy yet or is afraid of what that entails so she sure as hell isnt going to make you happy. Even if she went out with you, she seems to have so much baggage she could just randomly dump you out of the blue ,you would always be on egg shells.People have to sort their own baggage out, you cant help her with that. I think you should leave this one permanently, if you do cut contact with her and immediately she's interested, then definitely run a mile, she is just playing games and missing the attention. We all have baggage, you have to get over yourself, take responsibility and move on, harsh but no one will do it for you.

I think, depending on the baggage, it is possible to help others out even if you do it in a passive way. If she has trust issues from a previous relationship, then simply by being her friend or someone she dates and letting her build trust in me, then that would help her with her baggage. That's just an example, though. (Oh, and I haven't been in contact for around three weeks and she hasn't been in contact/suddenly become interested).