Jazz.... what is it??? ?

Velvet Vocals

Ok.. so inspired by a previous post where Amy Winehouse was described as a jazz singer and compared to Billie Holiday and Ella Fitzgerald :eek: I have decided to open this to discussion.
What do you consider jazz?
Even the fact that this forum is labeled jazz & blues leaves me a little cold to be honest. To me jazz is a big enough genre to be able to stand up on its own rather then be lumped in with blues... which is close... but no cigar.

Obviously it is because I am a jazz singer that I take particular offence (or maybe that’s too strong a word, but it does irritate me) when jazz singers get lumped in with Soul singers or r &b singers or any other type of singers because what they do is so very different.
Now there are singers who have made a cross over and do blues, jazz and soul (my self included) but when we get to a stage where Amy Wine house is being compared to Billie Holiday, when frankly the only thing they have in common is a penchant for heroin, I think there needs to be a distinction made!
Jazz = an interpretation of standards that may or may not include improvising over the changes.
Obviously this interpretation is open to interpretation because this is music and not accounting and rules are made to be bent and stretched. But please, let’s try and compare like with like…..

So what do you think? Am I just over reacting?

Setun

No I understand and agree with you for the most part. When I saw the Amy Winehouse thread I was kinda thinking that she doesn't really sing jazz per se, but a whole load of different styles to make her sound her own. I for one am not a fan of hers, but I thought I'd recommend a good jazz singer rather than one that just sounded like Amy Winehouse, because I don't think there are any tbh.

Jazz is very hard to define. A lot of jazz musicians don't play standards all the time, so it's definition can't be limited to the gershwin or porter songbook, or even a parker fakebook. I think jazz has more to do with a kinda of outlook on music, or a mood attained in a piece. Technically speaking it features improvisation at some level, often using blues scales, utilises unusual time signatures occasionally, can be dissonant and with syncopated rhythms/polyrhythms. Now if you think about it, that actually doesn't narrow it down much. A lot of pop music today features a number of those technical aspects, so it's got to be something else again. Amy Winehouse may be "jazzy", but isn't "Jazz", if you know what I mean. I think it's the musician's approach to the above technical ideas that make it Jazz.

Velvet Vocals

Technically speaking it features improvisation at some level, often using blues scales, utilises unusual time signatures occasionally, can be dissonant and with syncopated rhythms/polyrhythms.

Ok can I be anal here and just bring up that while in some cases blues scales are used it more often then not the scales relating to the chords that are being played so in the case of a II-V-I the scales dorian,mixolydian and ionian would be used.... but thats just technically speaking;)

But I do compleatly agree with what you regarding syncopated rhythms and there is a certain camp that say anything palyed on the 2 and 4 is jazz...
But I think you're right, there's "jazzy" and then there's jazz

herbieflowers

Velvet Vocals wrote: »

Ok.. so inspired by a previous post where Amy Winehouse was described as a jazz singer and compared to Billie Holiday and Ella Fitzgerald :eek: I have decided to open this to discussion.
What do you consider jazz?
Even the fact that this forum is labeled jazz & blues leaves me a little cold to be honest. To me jazz is a big enough genre to be able to stand up on its own rather then be lumped in with blues... which is close... but no cigar.

Obviously it is because I am a jazz singer that I take particular offence (or maybe that’s too strong a word, but it does irritate me) when jazz singers get lumped in with Soul singers or r &b singers or any other type of singers because what they do is so very different.
Now there are singers who have made a cross over and do blues, jazz and soul (my self included) but when we get to a stage where Amy Wine house is being compared to Billie Holiday, when frankly the only thing they have in common is a penchant for heroin, I think there needs to be a distinction made!
Jazz = an interpretation of standards that may or may not include improvising over the changes.
Obviously this interpretation is open to interpretation because this is music and not accounting and rules are made to be bent and stretched. But please, let’s try and compare like with like…..

So what do you think? Am I just over reacting?

as I said in the other thread, I wasn't comparing AW to the great jazz singers of ysteryear. I was merely suggesting the OP should check out such singers - who aren't the same style but that the OP may or may not like. Yikes.

Setun

Let's not even get started on tritone subs and the half/whole scale, those nasty jazzy feckers

But what is it that makes one able to say "that's definitely Jazz"? It's very hard to pin-down. Even wikipedia seems to have a hard time

Wikipedia wrote:

As the term "jazz" has long been used for a wide variety of styles, a comprehensive definition including all varieties is elusive

herbieflowers

I mean jazz can't be defined because it's always changing. I mean, in the 20s and 30s it was much different - big band, Armstring etc. evolving (making huge, crude jumps here) and becoming less popular as instrumentation became more of a focus. Bebop revlutionised the whole genre, when the musicians started to play for themselves while still trying (and struggling to make a living). Economic factors impacted the whole "movement" or scene, too. Well, I'm rambling...

For me, it was a popular form of music, then became more avant-garde - it pushed the boundaries musically and creatively.

Rigsby

Velvet Vocals wrote: »

Ok.. so inspired by a previous post where Amy Winehouse was described as a jazz singer and compared to Billie Holiday and Ella Fitzgerald :eek: I have decided to open this to discussion.
What do you consider jazz?
Even the fact that this forum is labeled jazz & blues leaves me a little cold to be honest. To me jazz is a big enough genre to be able to stand up on its own rather then be lumped in with blues... which is close... but no cigar.

Obviously it is because I am a jazz singer that I take particular offence (or maybe that’s too strong a word, but it does irritate me) when jazz singers get lumped in with Soul singers or r &b singers or any other type of singers because what they do is so very different.
Now there are singers who have made a cross over and do blues, jazz and soul (my self included) but when we get to a stage where Amy Wine house is being compared to Billie Holiday, when frankly the only thing they have in common is a penchant for heroin, I think there needs to be a distinction made!
Jazz = an interpretation of standards that may or may not include improvising over the changes.
Obviously this interpretation is open to interpretation because this is music and not accounting and rules are made to be bent and stretched. But please, let’s try and compare like with like…..

So what do you think? Am I just over reacting?

Hope you dont mind me saying so, but you come across as a little condescending in the above post. You give the impression that singing jazz is better or above singing blues, soul ect. Also this labeling and pigeon-holing of music for dissection annoys me. To me jazz, blues, pop, reggae, classical ect is just music. Yes, some is more complex than others, but this does not make it "better". I know you did n't actually say so but that's the way I interpreted it ( I could be wrong ).

As for jazz and blues being put together here on "Boards" : Firstly they are closely related as jazz descended from blues.

Secondly, I'm sure it's just for practical purposes, so as not to have too much material on one forum.

Velvet Vocals

I'm a jazz singer.... of course I sound condescending!!!;)
Ah no, I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to come accross that way, my whole point was that it irritates me the way jazz gets lumped in with everything else and isn't allowed to stand on it's own (but like everything thats only sometimes and not always) And also that I hate when the likes of Amy Winehouse or Dusty get labled as jazz muscians when really, they're just soul/blues/r&b singers... who maybe are a bit "Jazzy" from time to time.

As for jazz and blues being put together here on "Boards" : Firstly they are closely related as jazz descended from blues.Secondly, I'm sure it's just for practical purposes, so as not to have too much material on one forum.

I get that... it was just using it as an illustration of my point


and if I give the impression that jazz singing is better or above singing blues, soul.... thats because it is! imo;)

Rigsby

Velvet Vocals wrote: »

And also that I hate when the likes of Amy Winehouse or Dusty get labled as jazz muscians when really, they're just soul/blues/r&b singers...

The music industry labels people whichever way they want so they can sell records. It's always been that way. It's up to the individual to make his/her mind up. So what if so-and-so is branded as a jazz singer ? As they say on voting day, "let the people decide". I'm surprised that it seems to get to you. Get over it.

As for one music being "better" than another............ that's in the ear of the beholder.

brianthebard

Jazz comes from teas,meaning heat.Jazz is hot-to me anyways.

HalloweenJack

Amy Winehouse is not jazz. She's had one album produced by some eejit (that's what Mark Ronson is, I can't stand him) which is based on 60's Motown more than anything and people call her jazz.

Rigsby

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Amy Winehouse is not jazz. She's had one album produced by some eejit (that's what Mark Ronson is, I can't stand him) which is based on 60's Motown more than anything and people call her jazz.

As I said above in my reply to "Velvet Vocals".......... So what...


Why is everyone so uptight about this

Who cares how an artist is branded You either like their music or you dont.:rolleyes:

egan007

Jazz is Bovril - you will love it or hate it....Appreciating it is pointless

buck65

I actually do like her music but I wouldn't consider her jazz as such def more soul/pop. Some great tunes. Pity about the hair.

Rigsby

egan007 wrote: »

Jazz is Bovril - you will love it or hate it....Appreciating it is pointless

Well said !! Plus, if you have to ask "what is jazz ?" , you are missing the point entirely IMO.

herbieflowers

what was that famous soundbyte from Ellington, "there's only two types of music, good music and the rest".

stevejazzx

jazz is tough..you can't just tune in and get it..it takes work, although aw is not strictly a jazz singer in the way that one would describe ella as being...she is nonetheless an awesome talent...similar to billie holiday. now billie had thgis remarkable ecomony of sound that really made her stand out, that and the inflected angst her voice projected. In this way aw is similar.. although amy is really seems really f**ked up lately there is little doubt her voice is special whether it's jazz or not.