Altar's position in a circle

Moonspell

Some years ago I came across with a book from DJ Conway, "Celtic Magic" and there is something about the position on the Altar in a circle in it that didn't feel quite right.

In all books I have read, when preparing to cast a circle it's said that the Altar is positioned to the North, however Conway in this book "advises" to do it facing East.

The link below shows the diagram in the book... page 23

http://books.google.ie/books?hl=en&id=b9WTSC1maywC&dq=celtic+magic,+dj+conway&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=6GTGochhId&sig=uyAWhGx_Slopeg6e7cbJvM46uZo&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA23,M1

Has anyone else ever came across the same? Or has an opinion about it? As for me, like said in the beginning doesn't feel right.

Nevyn

Lots of different traditions place the altar in different places
or in different places at different times of the year
or for different rites and rituals.

I know clear as mud.

If it is your personal altar and it is your personal practice then it is up to you and what seems/feels right for you.
If you are working in a certain proscribed tradition then do what is traditionally done.

Moonspell

Think that why I felt strange about it, was the fact that the book it self is kind of "how to do it" style, or at least explains one to prepare etc. and usually we wouldn't hear someone saying to place the altar to East.

but it is true, thou is doesn't feel quite right to me, doens't mean it's wrong and will work for someone else.

akari no ryu

As a Celt, I can't really understand this post. The Celts tended not to have personal altars, per se, but rather focused their personal attentions on the family hearth hence "níl aon tinteán mar do thinteán fhéin". At a close second there's the doorstep, whereunder familial remains oft were buried as ancestral benediction.
While there were communal and tribal altars, DJ Conway is way off base with both the concept of altars within Celtic magic (as a whole) and the concept of drawing circles. That's most definitely a ceremonial magic thing.

Talliesin

Moonspell wrote: »

In all books I have read, when preparing to cast a circle it's said that the Altar is positioned to the North, however Conway in this book "advises" to do it facing East.

She seems to always do this without any explanation or source. In this case she can't really give a source since she's pretending to be doing something Celtic, but she tends not to in any case. Maybe she correctly cited a source in an endnote once and came out in a nasty rash or something. I suspect an influence may be Uncle Bucky's Big Blue Book [Buckland, Raymond. Complete Book of Witchcraft] or another of Buckland's. That one in particular was quite influential on post-Wiccan eclectic witchcraft and seems to be an influence on a lot of eclectic witches working to the east.

Quite why Buckland advises so is another question though, so ultimately not much more in ways of a final answer here I'm afraid.

Of course Christians work with altars to the east, so it could perhaps have ultimately come from some sort of Christian ceremonial magic, but that's pretty much pure conjecture on my part.

Moonspell wrote: »

Or has an opinion about it? As for me, like said in the beginning doesn't feel right.

If you were learning a particular tradition, I'd suggest just going with what you were taught to do and reasons may become more apparent later, and only after you've a good idea of what they are would it be wise to even begin to think about whether it could be changed.
In this case of some book saying something that doesn't work for you, just abandon the idea.

akari no ryu wrote: »

As a Celt, I can't really understand this post.

You haven't read the book, it's bad even for Conway.

It's interesting to compare this book with the same author's almost identical Norse Magic

akari no ryu wrote: »

DJ Conway is way off base with both the concept of altars within Celtic magic (as a whole) and the concept of drawing circles. That's most definitely a ceremonial magic thing.

Yeah, but I don't think it's great from that point of view either.

Tabnabs

gods, Conway, run for the hills!!

Looking at the "norse magic" book, it's dreadful. The bibliography is the real give away though. Not a standard text of heathenry listed. Even if you accepted magic, you would have to refer to the poetic edda, but not a mention of it in the entire book. :rolleyes:

OP, burn your Conway book and never taint you collection with anything Llewellyn again

Talliesin

I have to disagree with Dyflin on two counts.

Firstly, books can be recycled which is much more useful than burning them. Though you could use individual pages as kindling, I'd have no argument there.

Secondly, and more seriously, Llewellyn do publish a lot of crap, but they also post some great stuff. They've republished Israel Regardie's A Garden of Pomegranates and A Garden of Pomegranates (though ignore the extra sections added in their editions), and I certainly want to lay my hands on Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy some time soon.

Not just republished classics, I've heard very good things about Deborah Lipp's The Way of Four.

Tabnabs

Yeah they have some interesting modern stuff all right, but the classics are all published elsewhere. I only have one Llewellyn book and it sits gathering dust on the shelf whilst the other stuff is getting more and more dog eared...

londubh

thaedydal is right
do whatever feels right for you.
if im doing spirit work or ancestral work i've put the altar in the centre; if im doing a healing i'll put the altar in the west and so on through the elements; but nine times out of ten its in the north. (mainly because of the way my apartment faces).

trust your instincts and dont let anyone put you off an author or publisher, im not a conway fan myself but if it works for you and your harming none then go for it. read whatever pleases you. but do research the author before you buy their books, as their background may not suit you. conway can be very ceremonial.

just for the record: east facing altars are an alexandrian and gardenerian concept.

Nevyn

londubh wrote: »

just for the record: east facing altars are an alexandrian and gardenerian concept.

I can't say I have heard that before, have you any references for that which you can cite ?

Talliesin

londubh wrote: »

just for the record: east facing altars are an alexandrian and gardenerian concept.

I've wondered in the past if some lines of those traditions might do that, it would explain why it appears elsewhere. But the only public statements on the matter I can think of from anyone from either of those traditions (Buckland is of course Gardnerian, but his Complete Book of Witchcraft is not about Gardnerianism) place the altar in the North, or at least facing North e.g. Vivianne Crowley in Wicca and the Farrars in Eight Sabbats for Witches. Where did you come across Alexandrians and Gardnerians placing the altar in the East?

PaulinCork

I like to have an altar in all four directions, one with feathers in the East, one with candles in the South, one with shells 'n' stuff in the West,
but I place most emphasis on the one in the North, since that symbolizes Earth for me, and has food on it

I've also started to have an ancestor altar in the North-West ("Samhain-wards)

According to Alexei Kondratiev, an expert in Celtic spirituality and symbolism, there's an Old Celtic word which means both left and North, and one which means both right and South, which implies the pre-Christian Celts focussed on East

londubh

Thaedydal wrote: »

I can't say I have heard that before, have you any references for that which you can cite ?

im a second degree alexandrian. i was trained from a handed-down book of shadows and coven experience.

Nevyn

londubh wrote: »

im a second degree alexandrian. i was trained from a handed-down book of shadows and coven experience.

Eh ok, but that doesn't answer what I asked.

When I asked for any references you can cite was so that I ( and others if they wished )
could go and look it up.

This can not be done with a traditional held lineaged book of shadows the contents of which are not for public consumption and are for the most part oath bound.

So I am more then a lil stunned and skeptical when someone speaks about those
matters in such a public fashion.