Paramedic assaulted in Dublin

Tango Alpha 51

"A DFB Paramedic, attached to Tara St Fire Station was assaulted whilst attending to a patient in Dublin city centre. The incident happened after the crew asked a "friend" of the patient to leave the ambulance after he became aggressive to crew members. The man assaulted one of the crew, ripping the shirt form his back and dislocating his wrist. A number of Gardai were required to subdue the man before arresting him."

This is the second assault in recent weeks on a member of the DFB/HSE ambo svce. Beggars belief when we're only trying to help people.

DubArk

No doubt drink had something to do with it as usual!!!
ZERO tolerance is what’s needed here!!! :mad:

The message should be sent out clearly to all who mess with our emergency services, it’ll not be tolerated.

I hope you realise how much the majority of people appreciate the very difficult job you have and are very grateful that your there when we need you.

Eru

The simple reality is that scumbags dont care who you are or how helpful your trying to be, they simple dont care about anyone or anything beyond themselves and its cases like this that should make the bleeding hearts realise that.

From a personal viewpoint I think DFB should be given ASPs and vests if they want them and I realise that that would probable get a mixed reaction but they need to be able and more importantly, allowed defend themselves if they need to.

Should also be a minimum sentence for attacks on ALL emergency services and I mean sentence, no suspended, no community service. Jail and thats that.

Tango Alpha 51

Karlito,
We as in certain members of the HSE ambo svce have been looking for vests for the last 3 or so yrs. Our management team (local & national) are living in denial saying we work in a perfectly safe environment & that we don't warrant them. Their also saying that if we have them, there will be an increased level of assaults against us. BS because I don't think that since you've got them that the level of assaults has increased against yourselves. I do hope thought that DFB management prosecute this "person" to the strongest extent of the law & that the judge would give the appropriate sentence.

Eru

buzzman wrote: »

Karlito,
We as in certain members of the HSE ambo svce have been looking for vests for the last 3 or so yrs. Our management team (local & national) are living in denial saying we work in a perfectly safe environment & that we don't warrant them. Their also saying that if we have them, there will be an increased level of assaults against us. BS because I don't think that since you've got them that the level of assaults has increased against yourselves. I do hope thought that DFB management prosecute this "person" to the strongest extent of the law & that the judge would give the appropriate sentence.

Yeah I have heard different views from various dfb guys. some want them some dont. As for the ASP, I think even just one in a secure area of the ambulance would be enough for that 'oh ****' occasion.

And your right, the public and government live in denial when it comes to equipment full stop. Remember our last bosses didnt want 'robocops' running around and said we would get spray over his dead body. Its not like were asking for Uzi's, its only Spray for gods sake!

TheNog

Absolute scumbag. Karlito is right there should be minimum custodial sentences for people who attack emergency service personnel and nothing should be taken into account whether it drink, drugs or he never knew his daddy!!!!!

An attack on FB or Ambo crews are cowardly to the extreme 'cos ye are unarmed and are sometimes doing a different job to us - ye are caring for people when we are sometimes to arrest them . Attacks on us are just as bad though the courts don't seem to believe so.

Ambo and FB should definitely get proper protection equipment similar to our own. This excuse of increased attacks is pure rubbish.

Best wishes to the paramedic that was attacked.

Fyr.Fytr

Disgraceful, agree with karl on the vests, as for asp's i dunno, maybe even one locked in the drugs cabinet.

Even when on duty myself at the likes of oxygen you get patients mostly those under the influence of drink of drugs who get very aggressive and think your "trying to ruin their buzz"

Were in a lucky position at gigs that the area is saturated with guards and security to deal with the p/t but on the streets as much as they guards endeavour to give their colleagues in different services a dig out they don't have the resources to be there all the time to help.

Fair play lads and as the 2nd poster said the majority appreciate you its just a select few scum who deserve suspended sentences, from a gallows that is for what can only be described as a callous act.

Best wishes to the lad from hq, hope he recovers soon and gets back to the job he more then likely loves

Elessar

I believe there is a potential sentence of 7 years now for an assault on emergency services staff - heard it on the radio a while back maybe it was only proposed can anyone else remember it?

Fyr.Fytr

Yea thats the maximum sentence, were looking for a mandatory minimum, get rid of the oul slap on the wrist or suspended sentence

petergfiffin

As an outsider I see a few problems here....Isn't the problem with having an ASP locked away that it takes time to get it? Especially if it's locked away, so while you're getting it your partner could be getting clobbered. What happens if you split the guy open, are you then expected to treat him? If you get disarmed you now have a guy who's peed off and now has an ASP to boot. What are the legal consequences if you hammer 7 shades out of them?

Don't get me wrong I think ES (particularly FB & Ambulance) need every backup in what's an incredibly tough job and don't need these idiots making it tougher, I see no issue with vests and I think the courts should definitely imprison those who assault ES staff.

Personally though I think the way to go is non-aggressive, if FB or Ambulance staff feel in danger they should be given the right (legal and otherwise) to simply drive away (although I know this might go against the grain of why many joined the ES), also Ambulances & Fire-engines should be fitted with CCTV (if they're not already) to show the reality in court. Maybe if some of these scumbags saw their friends suffering as a direct result of their actions they might think twice.....then again!!!!

u2gooner

A number of DFB ambulances and Fire Engines are fitted with cctv. Not sure if they are working tho.

As for the right to drive away, we already have that. The way it goes is, look after your own safety, then that of your workmates, patient comes 3rd on the list. Theres no point having 2 casualties to deal with instead of 1.

As far as Im concerned, if someone is being aggressive towards me, they can make their own way to hospital. Most people will cop on when you tell them youre leaving without them if they dont quit the BS. But the odd time you will leave the scene with an empty ambulance rather than endure what happened the other night.

msg11

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Yea thats the maximum sentence, were looking for a mandatory minimum, get rid of the oul slap on the wrist or suspended sentence

Fyr.Fytr, is there not a line for defence if someone starts acting the maggot?

Fyr.Fytr

Sorry im not quite sure what you asking? (Might just be me, rather shattered and a tad bit sick, so if you could elaborate that'd be great)

Eru

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Sorry im not quite sure what you asking? (Might just be me, rather shattered and a tad bit sick, so if you could elaborate that'd be great)

I dont get it either.


Peter,
the arguement that the ASP may get taken off you applies across the board so therefore Gardai shouldnt have them either but thats not how it works as nowadays a lot of people DFB encounter will have a suitable weapon on them such as a needle.

However Im not suggesting it become a regular occurance that it be used. Im more thinking of those occasions where simple driving away or telling the guy to cop on is no longer viable. On those occasions where theres now a serious immediate risk to their safety they can at least deploy it and maybe buy some extra space or time. Using should of course be the very last option as DFB did not sign up to hurt people nor would I imagine they want to.

I also dont see any great problem with granting certain additional powers to DFB so they can legally carry an ASP and use it for self defence.

Remember with Gardai its not just for self defence, we also have the authority to use an ASP to restrain someone, defend life and property and also to stop breaches of the peace.

Anyway, its just a thought. Its really upto the lads themselves at the end of the day.

msg11

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Sorry im not quite sure what you asking? (Might just be me, rather shattered and a tad bit sick, so if you could elaborate that'd be great)

Tired myself this morning, I was asking if someone starts hitting you, can you not hit them back?

Worldismyidea

Yeah. It's called justifiable use of force and it's a defence under section 18 of NFOAP Act 1997. The 'force' must be reasonable and proportionate given the circumstances.

metman

I don't believe Fire or Ambo should be carrying offensive weapons. Look at the US. The level of violence towards Emergency Services there far outstrips anything encountered by Irish or even British Emer crews. Yet do FDNY carry Asps, Gas, Glocks? No of course they don't. To arm ambulance or fire crews is to effectively say we as a community cannot protect our emergency services crews, you're on your own. Have we arrived at this point? No of course we haven't, however emergency services work, regardless of what aspect of blue light response you work, is unpredictable and always carries a modicum of risk. Frontline response particularly so. Does this mean we should arm fire and ambo? No.

From a Police point of view, we put ourselves in harms way because we are duty bound to do so. We are sworn to uphold the law and keep the peace. This is why we legally carry offensive weapons and are afforded powers and protections in law above the ordinary citizen; we are required to place ourselves in harms way, and not walk away.

Ambo or Fire; if it kicks off? Withdraw and let Police and the Courts deal with the offender.

Fyr.Fytr

Met look at new york, there sheer volume of cops they have there, you get about 10 cars responding to one bag snatching, here as we all know 1 or 2 response cars, a van and if your lucky some task force or other unmarked cars (whats rare is wonderful) vast difference in the resources afforded to them vs over here.

Also fdny and london ambulance service are all given personal issue vest and definitely in london they wear them routinely.

What myself and karlitos are saying re: asp's is more of a maybe idea not a definite idea, were just pondering it, and as he said its only for when the sh1t really hits the fan, not just swung about willy nilly when ever someone doesnt agree with you.

At the end of the day i can guarantee no paramedic would agree to having them anyway, it goes against their impartiality, same way army medics are unarmed, then again war is more civilised

Fyr.Fytr

handfull of units to a bag snath? still more then we have

Isaid what we have available is those units, marked cars and vans dealing with all the calls as theyre given, by the time a car could be free dfb or hse would have left the scene a good while ago

(the units i said available here are just whats out there not whats turned out to a call, i worded it wrong my bad, bag snatch might get 1 car if your lucky more then likely a request to come to the station in person to report it)

TheNog

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

DFB did not sign up to hurt people nor would I imagine they want to.

Just to make it clear to everyone that An Garda Siochana did not arm their members with ASPs cos we want to hurt people. :D

metman wrote: »

NYPD run with similar resources to ourselves in London.

The NYPD have something in the region of 40,000 members for a population of about 8 million. The Met have 31,000 for 7.2 million population.

Think FYR.FYTR is pointing out that the AGS have no where near enough members. Going by my figures above we are about 5-6,000 short with 14,000 serving members. Actually when you think about it we should probably have more than 20,000 members cos we police a country whereas NY and Met are city officers.

u2gooner

All fair points here lads, but I cant see this ever happening. Maybe vests one day but at the moment I dont think vests are even warranted, never mind Gas.
I for one would not like to be issued with this kind of kit and I would say you'd get the same attitude from 99% of DFB personnel.

When I go to work, My one aim is to leave a scene after making the situation better than it was when I arrived, end of. I think seeing the Fire and Ambulance crews armed would antagonise certain members of society and we dont need that.
The Gardai have their powers to deal with this kind of thing, and they should have more powers in my opinion. I wouldnt do your job and my hat goes off to you guys.

timmywex

In some ares, oor at times of thr night, a garda response is a few minutes at the best, event hough the gards treat calls for assistance the same as garda urgent calls for assistance, theres not always going to be someone around!

I think an asp per crew will be needed in the future, vests are needed now! There are sometimes that you just cant withdraw all that easily and some swings might be needed at people, maybe the oxygen cylinders will have to still be used!

Eru

TheNog wrote: »

The NYPD have something in the region of 40,000 members for a population of about 8 million. The Met have 31,000 for 7.2 million population.

Think FYR.FYTR is pointing out that the AGS have no where near enough members. Going by my figures above we are about 5-6,000 short with 14,000 serving members. Actually when you think about it we should probably have more than 20,000 members cos we police a country whereas NY and Met are city officers.

Dont forget that both have more support positions filled with civilians than we do so that 40,000 or 31,000 are freed up more than we are to actually police.

tintin

buzzman wrote: »

Karlito,
We as in certain members of the HSE ambo svce have been looking for vests for the last 3 or so yrs. Our management team (local & national) are living in denial saying we work in a perfectly safe environment & that we don't warrant them. Their also saying that if we have them, there will be an increased level of assaults against us.

Sounds like like it's the same people running the HSE as the Gardai!:mad:

petergfiffin

buzzman wrote: »

We as in certain members of the HSE ambo svce have been looking for vests for the last 3 or so yrs. Our management team (local & national) are living in denial saying we work in a perfectly safe environment & that we don't warrant them. Their also saying that if we have them, there will be an increased level of assaults against us.

They are obviously basing this on what's been seen internationally in other areas....since seatbelts were introduced the number of car accidents has sky-rocketed....and don't get me started on airbags!!!:p