Men's 400m

Pherekydes

Just watched the Semis there and Wariner looked outrageously easy running 44.15, while Merritt ran 44.12. Rooney made it with a big new PB of 44.60.

It looks to be a great final.

Prediction:
Wariner
Merritt
Brown

Racing Flat

A lesson on how to run the 400m from Rooney and Ohurugu - very disciplined.

I imagine Wariner will take it from LaMerritt, in new Olympic record, but not World Record. Rooney for a surprise 3rd - the others might blow themselves out of it trying to stay with the top 2, he'll pip them at the finish for bronze.

Pherekydes

Rooney's done great, as has Ohurougu, but I don't think he's got much more room for improvement this year. He may run 44.5 or so, but Chris Brown has PR'ed in the last two world finals.

eagle eye

Wariner is a class act. He will go sub 44 in the final.

I cannot believe Sanya Richards. She just cracks in the final. I said it before the race. When she was introduced to the crowd she did not smile. Before every other race in the Olympics, and all season as well she smiles and looks around and waves. She just cannot handle the pressure by the looks of things. Its sad to see, as she is a very, very special athlete.

Racing Flat

Apologies if this is off topic, but can anyone tell me why Allison Felix didn't run in the 400?

Pherekydes

Racing Flat wrote: »

Apologies if this is off topic, but can anyone tell me why Allison Felix didn't run in the 400?

I don't think it was ever her aim to run the 4.

LordSutch

I really want Wariner to win the Olympic 400 again, and I too would guess that La Shawn Merritt will be his closest rival (his very closest rival) in fact I would say that if I were a betting man I would be only 95% certain that Wariner will win ..............

Rooney did well to qualify, he has his work cut-out in the final

Also Commiserations to Hession in the 200, and Big congratulations to Ohuruogu on her Gold Medal in the womens 400 Meters . . .

Cant Wait for the 400 Final ~ Wariner to Win

Xavi6

Don't see how anyone could look past Wariner. Just such a smooth and effortless runner. Looking forward to a sub 44 performance.

Racing Flat

Wariner looks so much less bulky than the others. Is he more about speed endurance compared to the others' power?

thirtyfoot

Racing Flat wrote: »

Wariner looks so much less bulky than the others. Is he more about speed endurance compared to the others' power?

The Hart system does focus a lot on speed endurance (or even endurance) and much less focus on speed. Now I know he has left Hart but he made his breakthorugh with him. They work on slower runs but more runs. He has a famous 200m session early season (not certain of recoveries - prob 50-60secs) which is basically 8 x 200 in 28 secs or if 7 its 27secs or if 4 reps its 4 x 200 in 24secs. He puts a big focus on conditioning and goes for the "speed kills" philosophy. They do crazy stuff in autumn like 600 or 800's and occasionally the mile - MJ did a mile in training once apparently.

Very few Hart athletes get injured and very few Hart athletes get beaten on the stretch (if the head is right not like Sanya). A prereq for the Hart system is very good basic speed before the athletes commences, doesn't work for all. Johnson and Wariner had great basic speed so it works for them. Because of this it could be wrong for coaches to blindly adopt the Hart system as it might not work for their athlete but elements can be adapted.

Although he has said he does more speed with coach Ford.

Rineanna

Apologies if this is off topic, but can anyone tell me why Allison Felix didn't run in the 400?

Pherekydes wrote: »

I don't think it was ever her aim to run the 4.

Would you believe it, she actually did want to run the 200/400 double, but if you look at the timetable, it just doesn't allow adequate time between the events to make it feasible. The USOC lobbied the IAAF to adjust the timetable to make it happen, but their claim came too late.

It will, however, happen next year in Berlin at the World Championships, where they have specifically allowed ample time between the too events, so that Felix and, I presume, Sanya Richards will double up.

But if you want to see her do a 200/400 double even sooner, then look no further than the Golden League meet in Zurich, where Richards and Felix will battle it out over the 200/400 double. This arrangement precluded the two of them from facing each other throughout the pre-Olympic circuit.

Pherekydes

Here's the lane draw for Thursday's final:

2 Renny Quow [TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO] TRI 44.82 44.82
3 Johan Wissman [SWEDEN] SWE 44.64 44.56
4 LaShawn Merritt [UNITED STATES] USA 44.00 43.96
5 Chris Brown [BAHAMAS] BAH 44.40 44.40
6 Leslie Djhone [FRANCE] FRA 44.79 44.46
7 Jeremy Wariner [UNITED STATES] USA 43.86 43.45
8 Martyn Rooney [GREAT BRITAIN & N.I.] GBR 44.60 44.60
9 David Neville [UNITED STATES] USA 44.61 44.61

Merritt and Wariner are kept far apart.

LordSutch

I still want Wariner to win, but I would say that Merritt has an advantage being drawn in lane 4 ..........

dedon

Tingle wrote: »

The Hart system does focus a lot on speed endurance (or even endurance) and much less focus on speed. Now I know he has left Hart but he made his breakthorugh with him. They work on slower runs but more runs. He has a famous 200m session early season (not certain of recoveries - prob 50-60secs) which is basically 8 x 200 in 28 secs or if 7 its 27secs or if 4 reps its 4 x 200 in 24secs. He puts a big focus on conditioning and goes for the "speed kills" philosophy. They do crazy stuff in autumn like 600 or 800's and occasionally the mile - MJ did a mile in training once apparently.

Very few Hart athletes get injured and very few Hart athletes get beaten on the stretch (if the head is right not like Sanya). A prereq for the Hart system is very good basic speed before the athletes commences, doesn't work for all. Johnson and Wariner had great basic speed so it works for them. Because of this it could be wrong for coaches to blindly adopt the Hart system as it might not work for their athlete but elements can be adapted.

Although he has said he does more speed with coach Ford.

This is the biggest load of rubbish I have heard. DO you know anyhing about athletics. 8*200 in 27 secs with 60 sec rec?? That is very very average. Most 1.50 800m runners do that even faster. I'd say he is more around the 24 secs range at least..

I was running 1.57 for 800m last year and did a session of 10X200 witg 60secs rest . All in 28. And that is average out

thirtyfoot

dedon wrote: »

This is the biggest load of rubbish I have heard. DO you know anyhing about athletics. 8*200 in 27 secs with 60 sec rec?? That is very very average. Most 1.50 800m runners do that even faster. I'd say he is more around the 24 secs range at least..

I was running 1.57 for 800m last year and did a session of 10X200 witg 60secs rest . All in 28. And that is average out

Ok, deep breath, take it easy. Have you studied Clyde Hart methods, I've tried my best to find as much info as possible.

This is a Hart session, trust me. I met Clyde Hart once (for a couple of minutes) and while he didn't talk about specific sessions he did say that some of his sessions would surprise people as they are too easy but wouldn't elaborate.

It is average and thats the point. He does lots of slower stuff and higher volumes, short recoveries. Johnson or Wariner can go faster but its not the point of the session. I used this as an example to show the type of session that Hart uses that many people will find very easy. He says you run slower to run faster. He doesn't go for high end speed sessions in training as the risk for injury may be too high. Yes, some of his sessions will be fast and he has a 3 x 350 session that is hard but these are Hart sessions. Do some research into the man and you'll be surprised. He changed his philosophy when MJ kept getting injured when younger. The new system worked, MJ stayed healthy and the rest is history.

Quote from Hart "The hardest thing for coaches to understand is that its not that athletes couldn't run faster in training when they're running workouts of 8 200's in 28 secs. Of course they could run faster but thats not the purpose of the workout. The purpose is to run eight of them. Its the conditioning. Its putting money in the bank. Its building a reserve"

dedon

Tingle wrote: »

Ok, deep breath, take it easy. Have you studied Clyde Hart methods, I've tried my best to find as much info as possible.

This is a Hart session, trust me. I met Clyde Hart once (for a couple of minutes) and while he didn't talk about specific sessions he did say that some of his sessions would surprise people as they are too easy but wouldn't elaborate.

It is average and thats the point. He does lots of slower stuff and higher volumes, short recoveries. Johnson or Wariner can go faster but its not the point of the session. I used this as an example to show the type of session that Hart uses that many people will find very easy. He says you run slower to run faster. He doesn't go for high end speed sessions in training as the risk for injury may be too high. Yes, some of his sessions will be fast and he has a 3 x 350 session that is hard but these are Hart sessions. Do some research into the man and you'll be surprised. He changed his philosophy when MJ kept getting injured when younger. The new system worked, MJ stayed healthy and the rest is history.

Quote from Hart "The hardest thing for coaches to understand is that its not that athletes couldn't run faster in training when they're running workouts of 8 200's in 28 secs. Of course they could run faster but thats not the purpose of the workout. The purpose is to run eight of them. Its the conditioning. Its putting money in the bank. Its building a reserve"

Load of rubbish!! There is no way Warner or MJ were doing easy sessions like that all the time. How can you run that slow and then manage a sub 44 (unless you were up to something). I think you have got it wrong. He prob gave a example for an average runner and not MJ

thirtyfoot

dedon wrote: »

Load of rubbish!! There is no way Warner or MJ were doing easy sessions like that all the time. How can you run that slow and then manage a sub 44 (unless you were up to something). I think you have got it wrong. He prob gave a example for an average runner and not MJ

No, I've read this in several places on Hart. It is well known and a bit to take at first. I've found one of the articles http://www.sports-fitness.com/article/sf/ie/read/78/1. NB: As I said earlier the Hart system doesn't work for everyone, you need very, very good basic speed, not all athletes have this so I don't think it would suit your traditional Irish athlete. When he talks of kids he talks of guys doing 45's/46's - elites. Baylor is the home of the quarter-miler in the US and if you get to there you are very good. Read this, don't knock it without understanding it first, after a while it makes sense. I'll trt dig out more but much of it is hard-copy.

"Michael Johnson did eight in 28 in 2000 and he did the same in 1987. It is for training the body, it is not he couldn't go any faster. He could have been doing 5 in 25sec but where was he going to go? He would hit a wall. It is about the amount of work being done. You can use a whistle and a watch or a watch with a beeper.

Racing Flat

dedon wrote: »

I was running 1.57 for 800m last year and did a session of 10X200 witg 60secs rest . All in 28. And that is average out

Why are you doing 10 200's at 1.52 pace when you are a 1.57 runner? This is crazy and a mistake most middle/long distance runners probably make. If you are going faster than race pace, you should either be doing less repeats or have a much longer recovery.

Seb Coe used to do 3 200s. His hardest session. But he did them in 22s and took 10min rest between each. He wasn't bad...

Looks like speed is no problem to you if you can do 10 in 28. The problem might be that you can't put 4 29's in a row together. So working on the speed endurance might be an idea. 4 400s in 58secs with a 2min recovery (cutting this down gradually through the training period) between each would be a good session. But most people wouldn't have the confidence to do 'only 4 400s' in training.

PS 1.57 is quality - would love to be able to run 2.10!

dna_leri

Tingle wrote: »

No, I've read this in several places on Hart. It is well known and a bit to take at first. I've found one of the articles http://www.sports-fitness.com/article/sf/ie/read/78/1. NB: As I said earlier the Hart system doesn't work for everyone, you need very, very good basic speed, not all athletes have this so I don't think it would suit your traditional Irish athlete. When he talks of kids he talks of guys doing 45's/46's - elites. Baylor is the home of the quarter-miler in the US and if you get to there you are very good. Read this, don't knock it without understanding it first, after a while it makes sense. I'll trt dig out more but much of it is hard-copy.

"Michael Johnson did eight in 28 in 2000 and he did the same in 1987. It is for training the body, it is not he couldn't go any faster. He could have been doing 5 in 25sec but where was he going to go? He would hit a wall. It is about the amount of work being done. You can use a whistle and a watch or a watch with a beeper.

For more on Hart's training plans see:
http://www.nacactfca.org/articles/Hart-eng.htm

This features the following session as part of Early Season training:
Tuesday 1. Warm‑up: 1 mile in and outs
2. Flexibility Exercises
3. 8 x 200 Speed 28 seconds rest 3 minutes
4. 6 x 150 long hills speed fast/rest jog back
5. Weights

dedon

Racing Flat wrote: »

Why are you doing 10 200's at 1.52 pace when you are a 1.57 runner? This is crazy and a mistake most middle/long distance runners probably make. If you are going faster than race pace, you should either be doing less repeats or have a much longer recovery.

Seb Coe used to do 3 200s. His hardest session. But he did them in 22s and took 10min rest between each. He wasn't bad...

Looks like speed is no problem to you if you can do 10 in 28. The problem might be that you can't put 4 29's in a row together. So working on the speed endurance might be an idea. 4 400s in 58secs with a 2min recovery (cutting this down gradually through the training period) between each would be a good session. But most people wouldn't have the confidence to do 'only 4 400s' in training.

PS 1.57 is quality - would love to be able to run 2.10!

Thanks for the advice!!!

Racing Flat

WRs in 100 and 200, OR in women's 400mHurdles has to augur well for good times for the 400m tomorrow. If Wariner and LaMerritt are neck and neck it could get spicy. Maybe both MJ's records going in 2 days?

thirtyfoot

Any predictions for today? Wariner or Merritt, will Rooney sneak a medal.

I think Wariner has got over his mid-season slump but it'll be interesting to see how it goes if Merritt is close off the bend and how he reacts. Merritt's burst off the bend is Berlin was the most impressive "attack" I've seen in a while so that is always possible from him but I think Wariner has too much class.

As staying focused and relaxed in the last 50m is so crucial I think this picture of the two guys at the end in Berlin shows how to finish a 400. Totally relaxed, totally calm, they look like they are on a training run.

http://www.iaaf.org/GLE08/news/newsid=45277.html

thirtyfoot

dna_leri wrote: »

For more on Hart's training plans see:
http://www.nacactfca.org/articles/Hart-eng.htm

This features the following session as part of Early Season training:
Tuesday 1. Warm‑up: 1 mile in and outs
2. Flexibility Exercises
3. 8 x 200 Speed 28 seconds rest 3 minutes
4. 6 x 150 long hills speed fast/rest jog back
5. Weights

Cheers for that!! What feeling will Hart have today, will he still want Wariner to win, I'd be a bitter b*stard and inside would want him to lose if I was him.

Racing Flat

Michael Johnson will be delighted with all the rain...

Pherekydes

Wariner
Merritt
Brown

I can't see Rooney medalling. It'll probably take 44.3ish

Racing Flat

1. Racing Flat
2. Merritt
3. Wariner

All the training I've done in the rain in the last 2 months, I reckon I've a chance - any flights get me there on time?

Wariner not looking quite as convincing as usual, so maybe Merritt will squeeze it? Or maybe the champion will come out when it matters...

Fast_Mover

GB's Rooney..did I hear that his parents are Irish?!

Racing Flat

Merrits 2nd bend was incredible

thirtyfoot

Holy sh*t, didn't see that happening. Clyde Hart must be tut tutting in the stands!!

Fast_Mover

USA 1-2-3

1: Merritt
2: Wariner
3: Neville

Jaysus, Wariner was fading badly there in last 75m

Diamondmaker

The massive pain and damage aside, say ots your last race forever. Is it legal to throw a dive for the line in a tight finish?

Pherekydes

Fast_Mover wrote: »

USA 1-2-3

1: Merritt
2: Wariner
3: Neville

Jaysus, Wariner was fading badly there in last 75m

Wariner quit about 50m out. Very surprising. Apart from Merritt, no one else got close to their PBs.

robinph

That was some dip on the line, worth a few grazes to make the podium though.

Pherekydes

Diamondmaker wrote: »

The massive pain and damage aside, say ots your last race forever. Is it legal to throw a dive for the line in a tight finish?

Well, the alternative is losing.

TheRoadRunner

:):):):):):):):)

ah Gerry cracks me up. He reckons Wariner needs to move up to 800. He reckons everybody needs to move up a distance

thirtyfoot

Diamondmaker wrote: »

The massive pain and damage aside, say ots your last race forever. Is it legal to throw a dive for the line in a tight finish?

Don't know of any rule against it. Remember though its the torso that counts so it isn't always the best way to finish, hands don't matter.

LordSutch

Who's Gerry?

Wariner ran out of puff this time ......

thirtyfoot

"I don't have an answer - I don't know what happened. Jeremy's first 200m was great, but he did not attack the third 100m at all and then on the home stretch he looked extremely fatigued and just wasn't able to respond. LaShawn has been in great form, he ran his own, relaxed race, and he wrapped up a well deserved victory."
Wariner's mentor Michael Johnson on the 400m

LordSutch

That's the third time Merritt has beaten Wariner into second place this year :eek:

Chaottick

ArthurF wrote: »

That's the third time Merritt has beaten Wariner into second place this year :eek:

Merritt is the real deal, he has shown where he progressed. Warner was basically a unknown before he came to dominate the event in 2004. It was only a matter of time before Merritt start beating him, I don't think we will see any more fast times from Warner especially since Usada has sbecome more efficient.

eagle eye

I think its a bit quick to be writing off Wariner, I had a feeling this week that he would be beaten but after his semi-final when he ran 44 flat easing up I was sure we would see a real fast run final between the two of them and I was expecting him to win it.

Wariner has had a bad year overall and hopefully he can bounce back to himself next year.

Chaottick

eagle eye wrote: »

I think its a bit quick to be writing off Wariner, I had a feeling this week that he would be beaten but after his semi-final when he ran 44 flat easing up I was sure we would see a real fast run final between the two of them and I was expecting him to win it.

Wariner has had a bad year overall and hopefully he can bounce back to himself next year.

Don't expect Wariner to beat him any time soon.....Merritt has been eat good food, he hasn't cheated, so he deserve to be champ.

I haven't written him off, but i notice this with Wariner, once you come off that curve with him, he is unable to maintain his form and he isn't as strong as Merritt.

LordSutch

Looks like I was pretty close to the mark way back in Post#7 Post#13.

I think Warriner will bounce back shortly, and he will just have to live with his nemesis (Merritt) breathing down his neck for the the rest of his career, a bit like 'Coe battling with Ovett' back in the 80s

Wariner seemed race weary & tired to me, maybe he put a little too much effort into the heats ?

Chaottick

ArthurF wrote: »

Looks like I was pretty close to the mark way back in Post#7 Post#13.

I think Warriner will bounce back shortly, and he will just have to live with his nemesis (Merritt) breathing down his neck for the the rest of his career, a bit like 'Coe battling with Ovett' back in the 80s

Wariner seemed race weary & tired to me, maybe he put a little too much effort into the heats ?

Nope, Wariner doesn't have the guts of a real Champion. In 2004, he out classed his rivals. In 2008 his rival is equally talented and i realize he can't handle pressure.......so don't take any thing from Merritt, he is the best right now.