Pillar,success or failure?

mousey007

So what do people think.Personally i think he put his heart and soul in to it but ultimately fell short because he didn't bring the Dubs to an All-Ireland final

jackbhoy

Given that his objective was to deliver an AI then you'd have to say he was failure. Seems strange calling 4 Leinsters in a row a failure but that's expectation that goes with managing the likes of Dublin, Kerry etc...

Mad Dog

I think the same, unfortunately because of the lack of an AI he will be viewed as having failed but 4 Leinsters in a row is not to be sniffed at.

Also I would like to wish him well in the future.

Het-Field

Given the fact that he didnt even get to an All Ireland Final it will be judged as a period of limited progress.

During his tenure the likes of Cullen,Quinn,Keaney,Griffin and David Henry all became household names while he nurtured Shane Ryan into a top midfielder. He also developed the likes of Bernard Brogan, and Mark Vaughan. These lads along with Stephan Cluxton, Alan Brogan, Barry Cahill should form the backbone of any new regieme.

He also snatched the Leinster title back from Laois hands in 2005, and has firmly re-established Dublin as supreme in Leinster. In spite of Saturday, Dublin will take Lenister again next year regardless of whether Deegan, O'Dwyer, Kernan or Jason Sherlock take over

However, his failure to develop lads like of Stephan o Shaughnessy, David O Callaghan, Declan Lally, Kevin Bonner (a natural successor to Mick Galvin) and Ger Brennan will be a negative. He never properly honed the skills of Ciaran Whelan, Ray Cosgrove, and Paddy Christie. Eventually there was no incentive for the latter two to stay.

He also gave too much to lads like Collie Moran who were hoest to God rofessionals, but lacked the talent, and were given too much airtime. Moran's absence was not really felt in 2006, yet he stuck with him beyond that.

He also bowed to public pressure to drop Paul Casey when there was no need to do so. It smacked of Tommy Lyons who was too interested in courting the media

On balance it is a tenure which will be weighted in the negative. However, there are many good points, and I dont think Dublin are finished yet.

jackbhoy

Het-Field wrote: »

He also snatched the Leinster title back from Laois hands in 2005

That'd be Westmeath hands......

Nalced_irl

I would say neither tbh. Obviously his mission was to win Sam so you couldnt say he was a complete success, but i certainly wouldnt say he was a failure either. 4 Leinsters in a row, more times than not going out of the championship to the eventual winners (so far anyway) and the team was in a state when he took over so i think he had alot of success, just not as much as was expected.

Flukey

Certainly not a failure. 4 Leinster titles in a row is a great achievement. People just wanted more than that and the team, not just the management it has to be said, did not deliver.

aidan24326

Flukey wrote: »

Certainly not a failure. 4 Leinster titles in a row is a great achievement

No it isn't, the standard in Leinster over the last few years has been poor. His job was to win an All-Ireland with Dublin, in 4 years he failed to even get them to a final. I'm surprised you even think that winning a few Leinsters is 'success'. Winning All-Irelands is all that should matter to Dublin, Leinster should be just a stepping stone on the way to bigger things. A Kerry manager would be laughed at if he claimed that 4 Munsters in a row was success. However it may actually be that he did as much as he could with the players he had available to him, maybe a few of them aren't as good as they were cracked up to be.

popebenny16

he deserves credit for turning around the mess that Lyons made of things, and those four leinsters help to numb the bad years from 1996 onwards when we couldnt win a title - Lyons pissed all over the one he won saying they over achieved (and it was Tom Carr's team anyway)

he also got them to play for 70 mins, and with a ferocity during those 70. even the Mayo and Kerry defeats were not walkovers. one of the bif problems from 96 till 2005 was the way we would regularly wilt after the 55th min.

where he went wrong was in taking that ferocity off in a rather odd tangent, the results of which were a few sideline tussles, THAT shoulder, and the in-your-face stuff as well as pointing to the scoreboard (but it was Laois and they deserved it )

where he also went wrong is well documented: no plan b. a reckless failure to treat the league seriously - a few people have mentioned the crossmsglen result this year - scarily similar to what happned on Saturday - and the way that the team didnt seem to think much of it. This leads to his other big problem - failure to learn from mistakes, and the micro version, a failure to see when players are failing badly during. a match

Mickey Harte obviously watched it during the week. :rolleyes:

In many ways he was a success, based on what happned before, but he, and his team, just wasn't good enough to get much further than leinster.

UnitedIrishman

Bit of both. Leinster has been at a bit of a lull recently so four titles in a row, whilst a decent achievement, was against poor Meath and Laois sides.

Against Mayo in 2006 he made a bad mistakes with regards tactics and substitutions. There were a few other times in which he made baffling decisions and the likes of Jayo (awaits backlash), Collie Moran and Ross McConnell weren't good enough at the end of the day.

That said, only a point seperated them from the final in 2006 and a Cluxton mistake cost them against Kerry last year IRC, so he obviously didn't do that badly.

However, history only remembers the victors.

2Scoops

I think most Dublin fans will agree that, while he hasn't been an abject failure, his tenure is best described as underachievement. That is a failure of sorts. The Dubs have some of the best players in the country (need a few more, though!) but have never made an impact outside of Leinster.

A new brush sweeps clean - he had to go. Still, it's a pity it was on the back of such a frankly humiliating defeat.

yahoo_moe

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

a Cluxton mistake cost them against Kerry last year IRC

Sorry to pick up on this but even apart from the fact that Kerry should never have let Dublin back into the match, Cluxton kicked the ball away after waiting an age in vain for ANY kind of movement from the Dublin forwards. This has been a key problem with the Dublin front 6 over the last couple of years and could be seen again on Saturday - when things aren't going entirely their way, they stop moving and stop showing. It wasn't a good kick from Cluxton but he had zero options.

As for Pillar, I'd agree with Nalced - partial success but didn't bring the double Leinster-winning side of 2006 on to bigger and better things in the last 2 years. For me, an AI this year or last year would have been the only way that his term in charge would be remembered as a total success but I'm beginning to doubt that Dublin have the defence to land an AI so it's maybe not entirely his fault.

John The Bad

jackbhoy wrote: »

Given that his objective was to deliver an AI then you'd have to say he was failure. Seems strange calling 4 Leinsters in a row a failure but that's expectation that goes with managing the likes of Dublin, Kerry etc...

Honest to God, where do you get off putting Dublin in the same class as Kerry?

The reason that Dublin do so badly in my opinion is due to a number of things and they can't all be the manager's fault but a big part of the problem is the expectation that's placed on Dublin. Why do so many people in Ireland always expect Dublin to be serious All Ireland contenders? Why? What form have this team shown in the past 10 years that makes people think they are as good as Kerry? I would class Dublin along with the likes of Derry, Galway, Donegal, Mayo, Kildare, Laois, not Tyrone, not Kerry. If you love Dublin, you will recognise Saturday for what it was -- the annihilation of hype by substance -- and you will take the pressure of your own players by not expecting too much next year.

Anyway, I'm going well of the point.

Caffrey (where did the silly "Pillar" nickname come from?) was a success in so much as he brought that team as far as they could ever go -- quarter- or semi-final. He was a failure in that he wasn't capable of making decisions on the line when they were needed -- he took an age on Saturday before making his first change (if I'm right, that was to put on a defender up front). He was a failure in that he couldn't seem to do anything with a huge problem with Dublin and that's mental weakness.

I think Dublin needs an outsider for manager now. The like of Jack O'Connor who's well capable of dealing with the pressure of expectation, will have no problems saying to the Dublin County Board that an All-Ireland won't come anytime soon and has the experience of winning All Irelands as a manager.

Golferx

John The Bad wrote: »

.............

......... (where did the silly "Pillar" nickname come from?) .............

Apparently it's to do with a childhood obsession collecting caterpillars.


I think Caffrey brought the team so far. I felt last year was this team's peak. I didn't feel they were as good in 2008 as 2007, but I felt they had a better chance of winning this year.

As for a new man? Surely Dublin football can provide a good enough manager, and ancillary staff, for their county team?

One thing I heard on the radio, which might be true, is an obsession, in Dublin GAA, with senior clubs' players. Look at the Meath teams under Sean Boylan. Several players from Junior clubs were playing and fully deserving of their places.

John The Bad

Golferx wrote: »

As for a new man? Surely Dublin football can provide a good enough manager, and ancillary staff, for their county team?

And here we go again. What makes you think that Dublin football can provide a good enough manager?

Let me ask this question -- and I mean no malice by it -- what is so special about Dublin football?

I suggest all Dublin fans should ask themselves this before deciding whether or not Caffrey was a failure or success.

Yavvy

John the Bad.. try and keep it on topic please. your points might be better discussed elsewhere. Thanks, Alan.

Het-Field

Golferx wrote: »

Apparently it's to do with a childhood obsession collecting caterpillars.


I think Caffrey brought the team so far. I felt last year was this team's peak. I didn't feel they were as good in 2008 as 2007, but I felt they had a better chance of winning this year.

As for a new man? Surely Dublin football can provide a good enough manager, and ancillary staff, for their county team?

One thing I heard on the radio, which might be true, is an obsession, in Dublin GAA, with senior clubs' players. Look at the Meath teams under Sean Boylan. Several players from Junior clubs were playing and fully deserving of their places.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Prendergast, and Denis Bastick are prime examples of lads who could be playing senior inter county football. I would hope that the next manager would consider certain junior players. I feel Deegan would do that

John The Bad

Alany wrote: »

John the Bad.. try and keep it on topic please. your points might be better discussed elsewhere. Thanks, Alan.

I know I was stretching it there but the thread is, "Pillar, success or failure." I honestly think that in order to be able to answer that, you need to first decide what quantifies as a success for a Dublin manager (or maybe any manager). Dublin are not presently capable of winning an All Ireland and that's not all Caffrey's fault therefore, while his reign mightn't be classed as a success, it's definitely unfair to regard it as a failure.

Yavvy

I understand what your saying John ...never the less it just invites off topic responces. Thanks

Nalced_irl

John The Bad wrote: »

I know I was stretching it there but the thread is, "Pillar, success or failure." I honestly think that in order to be able to answer that, you need to first decide what quantifies as a success for a Dublin manager (or maybe any manager). Dublin are not presently capable of winning an All Ireland and that's not all Caffrey's fault therefore, while his reign mightn't be classed as a success, it's definitely unfair to regard it as a failure.

I think most people agree with that. I certainly would not call him a failure.


Btw, Pillar came from the fact that he owned/owns a catapillar farm alright. Many think its because he is a Garda but thats not why.

jackbhoy

John The Bad wrote: »

Honest to God, where do you get off putting Dublin in the same class as Kerry?

Where did I say anything about class of dublin v kerry? If you'd bothered to read my post you'd see I was talking about the level of expectation that goes with some jobs, mostly Kerry/Dublin, where anything less than an AI is seen as failure.
And for the record, if any of rest of your post was supposed to be aimed at me you are wasting your time, I'm not from Dublin.

John The Bad

jackbhoy wrote: »

Where did I say anything about class of dublin v kerry? If you'd bothered to read my post you'd see I was talking about the level of expectation that goes with some jobs, mostly Kerry/Dublin, where anything less than an AI is seen as failure.
And for the record, if any of rest of your post was supposed to be aimed at me you are wasting your time, I'm not from Dublin.

Apologies Jack, I thought that's what you were saying. Nope, the rest of the post wasn't aimed at you; it was for the world and sundry.

Marse

Pillar had some success, but his main objective was to win and AI and in that respect he failed.
A complete change of the guard is needed. New management team and back room staff required.

Pappy o' daniel

His players lacked discipline, and this reflects badly on the manager.

Strangly, it looked like they were intimidated by tyrone, they gave tyrone too much respect.

63587614

Hi guys I'll throw in my 5 cents. I think that under Pillar Caffery Dublin did improve and his reign has to be viewed as somewhat successful.

However tactically the man was totally bereft. I remember Kerry v Dublin last yr a game Dublin strongly contested but for certain individual errors.

Namely Cluxton's illusion that he is a play maker.

These players simply need to be coached and handled better tactically.

I cannot understand how Shane Ryan was totally played out of the game by Tyrone.

But it prob comes down to Tyrone adapted better to the wet ball. A strong running team, good ball players, passers etc.

Dublin physical strength could not get near them because of the under footing.

Lads, take heart a better tactical selection and Dublin will certainly win an All Ireland.

Why wasn't Bernard Brogan starting. I know Mossy Quinn free taker etc. Just not good enough for this level.

Sherlock totally over ran, good servant but should've been subbed earlier for tigerish Vaughton.

Dublin are lacking 3/4 players overall. But again, teams neeed to be set up to their strengths.

I felt more could and should have been done, especially before half time.

Arion Online

Unfortunately Caffrey was out classed by the big managers over the last few years, he didn't get the tactics right in the end. Also the shoulder from behind on the Mayo man two years ago and the high five to Vaughan after he got sent off against Monaghan in the league leave a bad taste.
But we all agreed at the time that he was the right man.
Now its up to Harrington and co to pick the next man for the job, personally I would like to see Talty get it