Please stop buying from e-bay

BlackCat2008

I'm lost is this this world are we going back words or forwards ?????????????

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&d
JUST TYPE IN PONY SKIN(HAVING PROBLEMS WITH ONE)

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/253770/horse_slaughter_and_nurse_mare_foals/

http://www.equinevoices.org/ponyskins.php

Here are some of the lucky ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR21e6ldnJ4&feature=related

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/StopTheKIllingOfNurseMareFoals/

AngelicRaindrop

as a horse breeder i have to say something. although im sure alot of this is true in america.. for the most part in ireland it doesnt happen, yes there are foster mares used in big studs, the foal is taken away and fed on milk replacer and the TB foal is put on

but mostly what happens is if god forbid my mare died giving birth or shortly after i would ring around and see does anyone have a mare whos foal has died, rather than one with a live foal.

the mare is them brought over and the hide of the dead foal is sometimes (not always) put on the newborn for the mare to accept him as hers.

at least that way the foster mares foal is not taken so young

NoNameRanger

There is a world of difference between something being distasteful and cruel.
Personally i love horses and i have no desire to eat one or wear its skin. But i love to eat beef and appreciate quality leather from cattle. What is the difference between the two? Not alot really!

I have eaten veal which is a young cow and i'm sure the leather from young cattle is also used. I have no problem with that either. So many animals we farm and keep domestically have very short lives because that is the best time to harvest what we need from them. Leather is normally a by product of the meat industry.

At the end of the day its not cruel unless the animals are subjected to unnecessary suffering and pain. To some it may be distasteful and in turn be misrepresented as cruelty. Breeding horses and killing them humanely is not cruel no matter how old or cute they are.

We kill all manner of animals in this country and i believe that it is done in as humane a way as possible, now some countries are not so good, for example the Chinese have a bit of a reputation for skinning things alive and eating endangered species. You can't go and tar all with the same brush and rubbish an industry without all the facts.

The planet can only sustain so much life at any one time and everything must die sometime. What matters is that when it dies naturally it is fed into the wild foodchain or if at our hands, it dies with as little stress as possible and we don't waste it.

Sorry if i'm ranting.:o

BlackCat2008

I don't get the feeling you's read exactly what is going on here. Every one seems to have miss the point.

carwash_2006

There are places where they eat horses. If they are being killed for meat then why not use the skin too. If you want to campaign to stop this sort of thing you will need to start with the meat industry end of things.

As things are, if an animal is being killed to be eaten then we should respect the fact that it has given it's life to feed us and not waste any part of it. Did you think they would just throw away the skins? I personally would not eat horse meat, but I eat many other kinds of meat and will continue to do so. I would like if more of the animals produced for meat were given better lives and I will eat free range meat to try and produce that end. I would not campaign to stop people eating horse, just to try and get them better living conditions during the process.

Alun

Just to recap, this is what appears to be going on ... non-thoroughbred nurse mares are being made pregnant so that they produce milk to be able to nurse the foals of thoroughbred racehorse mares who, for whatever reason are either above that sort of thing, or else they just want to get them back out there breeding or racing again as quickly as possible. The foals that arise out of this are "surplus to requirements" and are simply killed for their leather as soon as they're born, as they're not allowed to be slaughtered for meat under a certain age. In other words, it's purely a financial thing for the stud owner.

I have to say, I do find it somewhat distasteful and unnecessary.

AngelicRaindrop

Alun wrote: »

Just to recap, this is what appears to be going on ... non-thoroughbred nurse mares are being made pregnant so that they produce milk to be able to nurse the foals of thoroughbred racehorse mares who, for whatever reason are either above that sort of thing, or else they just want to get them back out there breeding or racing again as quickly as possible. The foals that arise out of this are "surplus to requirements" and are simply killed for their leather as soon as they're born, as they're not allowed to be slaughtered for meat under a certain age. In other words, it's purely a financial thing for the stud owner.

I have to say, I do find it somewhat distasteful and unnecessary.

ok in Ireland very few good stud farms will put a mare back in foal in their "foal heat" which is at 10days after foaling. mostly because it can lower their fertility rate, any stallion owners i have come across normally says we will cover your mare on foal heat but it would be better for her and you if you waited till the second heat at roughly 28days.

take one of my mares, she foaled on the 4th May this year, everything went smoothly, when the foal was 23days old he was loaded into a horsebox ( with no ill effects) to go to the vet to scan the mare, this happened every day until her folicle burst on the 1st of june at which point mare and foal were loaded up and brought the 90min journey to the stallion. foal was kept in sight of the mare so not to stress either out and brought back home..

this proves if dont correcting traveling foals at an early age can actually be benifical, the foal is now nearly 4months old and has no problem loading into or out of a box.

the reason i explained all this is because mares here in general do not have their foals fostered out unless something has put them at risk of dying. or they are infact dead.

and most mares used by small time stud owners are mares that had lost their foals but are still producing milk. the bigger studs i have come across that use foster mares tend to use cob types, and when the foal is taken away it is not slaughtered for anything, it is reared on a bucket and sold as a weaning. i suppose some do end up beign slaughtered for meat and hide but i do believe the vast majority end up in ridingschools, private owners or show yards depnding on the quality of the foal turned out

Alun

OK, so this is primarily something that happens in the US then?

AngelicRaindrop

yes as far as i can tell. I'm not saying it doesnt happen, but any time i have come across fostering its been like ive stated above. anyway to take a foal from a mare at 10days to bring her to a stallion will put a huge amount of stress on her body. i surely wouldnt do it. and then youd have to milk them a little every day to stop mastitis until the milk dries up.. just sounds like alot of work when it doesnt really have to be done!

NoNameRanger

It still doesn't make it cruel though, immoral and distasteful, yes! But there are alot worse things being done in the line of big business. Why don't we concentrate on the real animal cruelty as i defined it earlier. Lets not fall for the baby animal propaganda which tugs at our heart strings and our natural nurturing side.

meathstevie

+1 For NoNameRanger. It looks like it's on the very edge of what most people would deem to be ethical farming and stock management practices but as long as there's no unnecessary stress being inflicted ond mares and foals I think it's just that : the sharp edge of stock management.

One of the posters here mentioned a minimum ages for slaughtering and processing, could you tell a bit more about it ? I don't want this to come accross as beligerent, it isn't. The only limits for animals to be slaughtered and put in the foodchain I know of would be upper limits, that's why I'm asking.

Alun

meathstevie wrote: »

One of the posters here mentioned a minimum ages for slaughtering and processing, could you tell a bit more about it ? I don't want this to come accross as beligerent, it isn't. The only limits for animals to be slaughtered and put in the foodchain I know of would be upper limits, that's why I'm asking.

From http://www.equinevoices.org/ponyskins.php ...

It is illegal to send foals under six months of age to the slaughterhouse, so these foals, from one day up to six months old are skinned for high end leather products.

That will probably only be in the US though.

fits

I think there is a similar process used in the making of Premarin which is a HRT for women. And I've also heard of calves from dairy cows being taken off the cow and slaughtered (not in Ireland) on intensive dairy farms.

I find the wasting of young animals like this distasteful tbh. They should at least be raised and put into the food chain at an older age. It seems very wasteful.

NoNameRanger

fits wrote: »

And I've also heard of calves from dairy cows being taken off the cow and slaughtered (not in Ireland) on intensive dairy farms.

I find the wasting of young animals like this distasteful tbh. They should at least be raised and put into the food chain at an older age. It seems very wasteful.

Very true, but veal is worth so much more than Beef that it is economically viable and thats what matters to the producer.
It does happen on Irish diary farms actually, calves are bucket reared to allow the Cow back to producing milk for us. Not sure about them going to slaughter or where we get our veal from though.

fits

NoNameRanger wrote: »

Very true, but veal is worth so much more than Beef that it is economically viable and thats what matters to the producer.
It does happen on Irish diary farms actually, calves are bucket reared to allow the Cow back to producing milk for us. Not sure about them going to slaughter or where we get our veal from though.

It was slaughtering of young calves I was referring to though, not the bucket rearing. Irish dairy farmers tend to breed half of their dairy cows to beef bulls, so they're better beef animals. The other half give rise to 50% heifers which they use as replacements.

meathstevie

The veal industry is quite big in Holland and Belgium. You'd be talking about farmers who rear nothing else, they wouldn't be into bullocks or heifers or anything. Quite often you'll notice that they use exactly the same prime beef breeds as are used for beef farming but they just slaughter them young. The diet would be different from ordinary meat production as well as the meat is supposed to be as pale as possible keeping welfare issues in mind.

HarryD

NoNameRanger wrote: »

I have eaten veal which is a young cow

NoNameRanger wrote: »

At the end of the day its not cruel unless the animals are subjected to unnecessary suffering and pain.

I agree, but with veal the animals are subjected to alot of suffering and pain.
Do a search on veal crates.
http://www.britishmeat.com/veal.html
Personally I never eat veal.

NoNameRanger

HarryD wrote: »

I agree, but with veal the animals are subjected to alot of suffering and pain.
Do a search on veal crates.
http://www.britishmeat.com/veal.html
Personally I never eat veal.

Having looked at that link. I believe it stinks of animal rights propaganda. Stop eating diary products and save the baby cows:rolleyes:. Once again they target our natural nurturing side and try to upset people. See the next link from their page where they compare pigs to human infants and toddlers. http://www.britishmeat.com/tender.html

Also read the first four lines of this page from the same site. Where they mention burning the face off a child:rolleyes: Read the whole thing actually. Nutters!!!!
http://www.hedweb.com/alffaq.htm

I'm afraid i would need to see a report from an independent authority before i would believe a word of that. There are people out there that want to turn us all into vegans or at the very least vegetarians. These people are extremists and are against the farming of animals for any purpose, hunting and fishing. We should only eat plants and fruit and all the animals should be allowed to roam the earth unchallenged, we would never touch them we would just admire them from a distance. These people are quite clever in that they divide us and instill subliminal messages and use shock tactics.
I know little about the veal industry but i won't be asking these people to educate me. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

kerrysgold

NoNameRanger wrote: »

Having looked at that link. I believe it stinks of animal rights propaganda. Stop eating diary products and save the baby cows:rolleyes:. Once again they target our natural nurturing side and try to upset people. See the next link from their page where they compare pigs to human infants and toddlers. http://www.britishmeat.com/tender.html

Also read the first four lines of this page from the same site. Where they mention burning the face off a child:rolleyes: Read the whole thing actually. Nutters!!!!
http://www.hedweb.com/alffaq.htm

I'm afraid i would need to see a report from an independent authority before i would believe a word of that. There are people out there that want to turn us all into vegans or at the very least vegetarians. These people are extremists and are against the farming of animals for any purpose, hunting and fishing. We should only eat plants and fruit and all the animals should be allowed to roam the earth unchallenged, we would never touch them we would just admire them from a distance. These people are quite clever in that they divide us and instill subliminal messages and use shock tactics.
I know little about the veal industry but i won't be asking these people to educate me. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

actually, eating dairy products is un-natural anyway. an animals milk is only for it's own offspring. basically, unless you're a calf, you shouldn't be drinking a cows milk!

NoNameRanger

kerrysgold wrote: »

actually, eating dairy products is un-natural anyway. an animals milk is only for it's own offspring. basically, unless you're a calf, you shouldn't be drinking a cows milk!

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Oh come on, what is natural and un-natural? it is a stable part of the human diet for thousands of years. And its great in tea and coffee, so you don't use diary products? ice cream, whipped cream, butter, cheese, yogurt? A great source of calcium:cool::). For godsake your named yourself after butter.:)

whitser

i think kerrygold went to the run to da hills school of wildlife studies;)

Whispered

NoNameRanger wrote: »

Having looked at that link. I believe it stinks of animal rights propaganda. I'm afraid i would need to see a report from an independent authority before i would believe a word of that......I know little about the veal industry but i won't be asking these people to educate me. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I agree that sometimes animal rights activists do more damage than good but I think their stand against veal farming is well founded. Cows need to reproduce to continually produce milk, male dairy calves are useless to the farmer and are taken away from the mother very young and put into solitary stalls. Apparently the less the calf can move the more tender the meat is. I think you can agree NNR that this could be considered unethical? Here is the explaination from the farmers side http://www.vealfarm.com/industry-info/faqs.asp it's an american site but I would imagine the process to be similar? Even from them, It sounds like a miserable existance.

here's another link http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-ethical-objections-to-eating-veal.htm

kerrysgold wrote: »

actually, eating dairy products is un-natural anyway. an animals milk is only for it's own offspring. basically, unless you're a calf, you shouldn't be drinking a cows milk!

I can see where you are coming from, and I personally don't drink milk (although I do eat dairy, I just don't like the taset of milk) but humans have developed to drink milk. We produce lactose, which has the sole purpose of breaking down sugars in dairy products.

NoNameRanger wrote: »

great source of calcium:cool::).

In saying that, calcium is easily sourced from other places. Also, lactose intolerance rises as people get older, suggesting that maybe we should cut down on quantities as we age? (I'm asking the q, not stating a fact)
http://www.gihealth.com/html/education/lactose.html

MsFifers

It is now recommended that (if you are going to eat veal) you eat "rose veal" as the welfare standards are higher and if it locally reared, avoids long live-transport journeys.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7200018.stm

HarryD

NoNameRanger wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Oh come on, what is natural and un-natural? it is a stable part of the human diet for thousands of years. And its great in tea and coffee, so you don't use diary products? ice cream, whipped cream, butter, cheese, yogurt? A great source of calcium:cool::). For godsake your named yourself after butter.:)

Thousands of years ago we would all have stopped consuming dairy products once we stopped breastfeeding..
Except for those Roscommon rednecks, sucking on cows udders, well into their 50's.

HarryD

NoNameRanger wrote: »

Having looked at that link. I believe it stinks of animal rights propaganda. Stop eating diary products and save the baby cows:rolleyes:.

I didn't actually read the page , but I'm not surprised about the propaganda.
It's difficult to get balanced views when it comes to this subject.
But I did read a article some time ago, which gave an impartial overview of the practice. After reading it I decided not to touch veal again.
Likewise goose liver aka fois gras

Fighting Irish

OK so you're letting us eat cows and pigs but not horses and ponies because you like horses and ponies? Thanks
Do you want us to stop using ebay all together so just stay away from pony skins?

note: i don't eat horses or ponies

Whispered

HarryD wrote: »

Likewise goose liver

Yep disgraceful practise. I avoid restaurants that serve it.

Although I do think people are becomming more ethical and aware of the products they buy.

Whispered

Fighting Irish wrote: »

note: i don't eat horses or ponies

LIAR

Fighting Irish

helena.ryan wrote: »

LIAR

i would but its probably expensive, and the only reason i would eat it is to pee off people like the thread starter

Whispered

That sounds unnecessarily agressive (as well as pretty juvenile). Why would you want to annoy someone on purpose? Just for the sake of annoying them?

Fighting Irish

helena.ryan wrote: »

That sounds unnecessarily agressive (as well as pretty juvenile). Why would you want to annoy someone on purpose? Just for the sake of annoying them?

Because i don't understand why they want to control other people when it comes to different animals

kerrysgold

NoNameRanger wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Oh come on, what is natural and un-natural? it is a stable part of the human diet for thousands of years. And its great in tea and coffee, so you don't use diary products? ice cream, whipped cream, butter, cheese, yogurt? A great source of calcium:cool::). For godsake your named yourself after butter.:)

no I don't, and it's simple really. humans produce milk for their offspring too, so do all mammals, the only thing that is meant to drink milk is the young until they are old enough to eat solids. and actually kerrygold is the butter, which is not my username.

meathstevie

Folks, may I draw your attention to the fact that the practice of rearing calves in crates, the so called "kistkalf" in Dutch has been outlawed for a good while now in most of the EU. When this was done it actually caused a serious challenge to breeders to be able to deliver the typical pale soft textured meat consumers were used to.

About horses and ponies. They mightn't be eaten here in Ireland but there's thousands of horses being exported from Ireland to the continent for slaughter and a fair few stay local and are turned into petfood.

Whispered

meathstevie wrote: »

Folks, may I draw your attention to the fact that the practice of rearing calves in crates, the so called "kistkalf" in Dutch has been outlawed for a good while now in most of the EU. When this was done it actually caused a serious challenge to breeders to be able to deliver the typical pale soft textured meat consumers were used to.
.

Thats probably why I could find no irish info on it. How are veal calves reared now?

meathstevie wrote: »

About horses and ponies. They mightn't be eaten here in Ireland but there's thousands of horses being exported from Ireland to the continent for slaughter and a fair few stay local and are turned into petfood.

I don't think the op is disagreeing with the fact horses are being eaten. (I could be wrong, OP could you clarify what the issue is, is it the practise of killing healthy foals?) I think it's the fact that mares are impregnated and allowed to carry the foal full term so that they produce milk. The healthy foal is then killed so that a TB foal can be nursed by the mare. The issue is a perfectly healthy foal being killed. It's a disgusting waste and not natural.

meathstevie

Helena, when you're talking about the continental meat rearing industry nine times out of ten in something that resembles this :

http://www.wopereis.nl/steel-construction/calf-sheds.php

Not exactly green rolling fields but still a hell of a lot better than a crate in which they couldn't even swish their tails.


To claw back to the foals, of course it's not natural. It's the harsh side of the big money industry called thoroughbred breeding. And than you have to keep in mind that of all thoroughbred racing stock born every year only a minority ever gets to the racecourse.