The fate of Science?

r3nu4l

I was disappointed to hear today that once again CAO applications for the sciences has dropped. As a result we are in grave danger of being a nation with no discernible credible scientific ethos and won't develop the type of people necessary to attract big science to Ireland. If we don't have the workforce, we won't get the jobs.

I heard on RTÉ1 this morning that there is a call for better education in schools about the "Excitement of science". While this is a good thing, it's not enough imo.

I remember a few years ago during an open day at NUIM, one of the school kids asked me, "So you have a Doctorate, how much can someone with a doctorate expect to earn after spending so long in University". When I told her, she exclaimed "Wow, that's a good monthly salary!!", When I explained that the figure I gave her was an annual salary she laughed.

So when I conducted a short straw poll amongst them, they all felt that having spent 7 years in University they would expect to earn at least 80-90k straight away and progress rapidly upwards.

However, I really feel that in some ways they are right. A chartered accountant gets a degree, works and studies for the Chartered accountants exam and when they become chartered, they can earn a lot of money very quickly!

We don't have anything in science that allows people to say that spending that time in University was 'financially worth it'.

Now I know it's not all about money and we should love science for what it is but at the end of the day, most kids, given the choice between a career of uncertainty and one where it's possible to earn a lot of money a few years after graduating, will choose the latter. I don't blame them!

So I don't know if that's a rant or a comment or what but what do you feel we should be doing to improve the number of science applicants? Can it be improved?

GuanYin

Many disciplines have people who work for the love of the job. The factis, you cannot retain good employees if you do not pay them.

Hence, here, we have lots of excellent US MD/PhDs (who get paid at above MD salary) and a workforce of maybe 30% US PhDs. The better PhD's tend to go to industry where they will earn at least twice the salary over a postdoctoral period.

AtomicHorror

r3nu4l wrote: »

So when I conducted a short straw poll amongst them, they all felt that having spent 7 years in University they would expect to earn at least 80-90k straight away and progress rapidly upwards.

Oh man I wish. Pulling 40k straight out of a PhD would be a tall order. I have friends with BSc. degrees working in offices who are already on a fair bit more than that.

r3nu4l

Well both of you have hit the nail on the head here. Most of us, whether we love our job or not, want a very good salary in return for the years we spent in Education. Until people see highly paid scientific jobs they won't place any value on working in Science.

I laughed when I heard the woman on the radio say that young Irish people were missing out on the opportunity to gain highly paid employment in Science. I had to ask myself "Where are these highly paid jobs?" It they are so highly paid why aren't pharma, chemical and physics companies boasting about them? Why aren't they advertising to say, work for us and earn a high salary? The reason? Well there's only a minority of these jobs that are highly paid, the rest aren't worth the time invested in education or at least, there are plenty of other jobs with defined career paths that are better paid.

This brings me back to the real bugbear. How are Leaving Cert students expected to choose Science degrees on their CAO forms when they only have a vague idea of what careers are available in science after they complete their degree studies and no idea of what the potential salaries are? It's ludicrous. Those choosing accountancy courses know the potential job market and salaries. Why isn't science career guidance used properly?

Without good, decent career prospects and proper guidance towards those careers I fear that science uptake in Ireland can only get worse.

moggins7

r3nu4l wrote: »

This brings me back to the real bugbear. How are Leaving Cert students expected to choose Science degrees on their CAO forms when they only have a vague idea of what careers are available in science after they complete their degree studies and no idea of what the potential salaries are? It's ludicrous. Those choosing accountancy courses know the potential job market and salaries. Why isn't science career guidance used properly?

Without good, decent career prospects and proper guidance towards those careers I fear that science uptake in Ireland can only get worse.

well as far as i can remember(only last year) the average salary as quoted in the manual thing(listing all the different job opportunities) is about 28k-34k for someone just out of college with a degree(though it might have been a masters). i'm not sure how this sounds to you but it doesn't concern me yet so i don't care.

i'm doing science in nuim, going into 2nd year just(studying maths, math physics and physics) and i love every second of it... this is what i want to do. relations have asked me before what kinda work will i get from doing math physics as a single degree and i tell them i honestly have no idea.

this uncertainty doesn't but me off in the slightest, i'm doing what i love and what i want to do... and i'm sure this is true for the 300 odd other second year science students in nuim..

i'm not sure what point im making or even if im making any point at all but those students who thought 80-90k as a starting salary was average are obviously living out of daddys pocket and have no grasp on realtiy.

r3nu4l

moggins7 wrote: »

well as far as i can remember(only last year) the average salary as quoted in the manual thing(listing all the different job opportunities) is about 28k-34k for someone just out of college with a degree(though it might have been a masters). i'm not sure how this sounds to you but it doesn't concern me yet so i don't care.

i'm doing science in nuim, going into 2nd year just(studying maths, math physics and physics) and i love every second of it... this is what i want to do. relations have asked me before what kinda work will i get from doing math physics as a single degree and i tell them i honestly have no idea.

this uncertainty doesn't but me off in the slightest, i'm doing what i love and what i want to do... and i'm sure this is true for the 300 odd other second year science students in nuim..

i'm not sure what point im making or even if im making any point at all but those students who thought 80-90k as a starting salary was average are obviously living out of daddys pocket and have no grasp on realtiy.

You make some good points and when I was an undergrad I really loved my course too and enjoyed every minute of it. I also loved my PhD and when I started my post-doc I thought it was great. In fact I did my degree, PhD and Post-doc in NUIM! Part of my PhD was in TCD but mostly NUIM.

Then reality kicked in. I wanted to buy a place of my own, marry my gf, have a nice car and a secure future. All of this requires money!

I realised that all the years I spent in Uni, while enjoyable, weren't going to give me the financial security I'd never, ever had and always craved. They also hadn't provided me with any meaningful career guidance despite me seeking it.

Now I'm in a great job that I really love but it's office based rather than lab-based. I work with senior people in top pharma companies, the job is varied and I get to write, something I love doing. I found this job and career path myself, by accident. There are some good jobs out there but few and far between and you really need to guide yourself to avoid years of misdirection.

That said, your choices of Phys, Maths Phys and Maths are brilliant and you should get some good employment from it!!

moggins7

r3nu4l wrote: »

I realised that all the years I spent in Uni, while enjoyable, weren't going to give me the financial security I'd never, ever had and always craved. They also hadn't provided me with any meaningful career guidance despite me seeking it.

but are unis really meant to do that??? should someone, everyone, at college not be looking to see what jobs are available to them and be making their own paths etc..
maybe i'm truely the one whos not living in reality by thinking that money isn't everything but i have good reason for thinking like that.. and i'm surely not gonna let crap pay stop me from doing something i like. better than being stuck doing something i despise just cause it pays well imo..

r3nu4l

moggins7 wrote: »

but are unis really meant to do that??? should someone, everyone, at college not be looking to see what jobs are available to them and be making their own paths etc..

Oh yes, but everyone needs guidance in the choices they make. Why equip someone with a lot of scientific knowledge and then turf them out the door without knowing where to apply those skills or what type of jobs they can get at the end of it all.

maybe i'm truely the one whos not living in reality by thinking that money isn't everything but i have good reason for thinking like that..

Money isn't everything, it's just the thing that pays your mortgage, bills, food, clothes, allows you to have and bring up children that aren't on the poverty line. My parents never had enough money, they didn't spend poorly, they just couldn't earn enough. I educated myself to remove myself from that possibility and yet today, I cannot afford to have children and pay my mortgage and I'm earning a lot more than a regular post-doc!

i'm surely not gonna let crap pay stop me from doing something i like. better than being stuck doing something i despise just cause it pays well imo..

Why not have a job you enjoy that pays well, that's a better option imo? That argument doesn't wash.

Anyway, we are getting away from the point. The point is that Science CAO applications are down again, what is to be done? Any thoughts on that?

AtomicHorror

r3nu4l wrote: »

Then reality kicked in. I wanted to buy a place of my own, marry my gf, have a nice car and a secure future. All of this requires money!

Now I'm in a great job that I really love but it's office based rather than lab-based. I work with senior people in top pharma companies, the job is varied and I get to write, something I love doing.

I want your job. Give it to me.

Or, you know, I'll also accept pointers on how to get a similar job. I love writing, though my ultimate goal is to try and break into science journalism. I may be dreaming there though.

moggins7

r3nu4l wrote: »

Anyway, we are getting away from the point. The point is that Science CAO applications are down again, what is to be done? Any thoughts on that?

tru that was slightly off topic..
well to focus on one subject in particular... yes you've guessed it, MATHS!!!
alot of the reason 10% of students are failing this is because they're allowed, and encouraged to drop to ordinary, well in my school it was like that.
i did honours because i wanted to and knew that i should be(i didn't do good in it by any means, only got a D1. but i was lazy back then:p) even though both my math teachers took me aside after class on a few occasions and asked me would i think of dropping down to ordinary!!! i insted stuck with honours got my pass, got into college where im doing maths(and liking it by the way), and got 74% in 1st yr exams...

this bring me onto my second point. the difference in hons leaving cert. maths and standard math at nuim wasn't a whole lot. the two were pretty much the same. so how can someone scrape a pass in one but get a first in the other? the teaching method. in leaving cert your told this is how to do something(call it X) now do it whenever you see Y. at college your told what Y means and what applying X to Y will do to it.

so insted of being told to do something just " 'cause thats the why". your told what does what and you figure out yourself why you should do something, a much better method of teaching(well technically the only method of teaching mentioned seeing as the other is more dictating!)

i don't think this applies to other subjects just as much but math seems to be the science that everyone focuses on come results time....

AtomicHorror

r3nu4l wrote: »

Anyway, we are getting away from the point. The point is that Science CAO applications are down again, what is to be done? Any thoughts on that?

From the perspective of a professional scientist, or one just entering the profession, is this actually what we want? The poor wages we are unhappy about may be partially due to the availablity of high numbers of science graduates. Perhaps if we were more in demand we'd have a bit more welly when it comes to negotiating pay.

r3nu4l

AtomicHorror wrote: »

From the perspective of a professional scientist, or one just entering the profession, is this actually what we want? The poor wages we are unhappy about may be partially due to the availablity of high numbers of science graduates. Perhaps if we were more in demand we'd have a bit more welly when it comes to negotiating pay.

This I understand. As it is the Government are already doubling the number of PhD studenships available in Ireland. That really made me smile but also disheartened me at the same time.

On the one hand it shows an investment in Science that MAY attract jobs, it may also not attract jobs. On the other hand you have double the number of people all looking for the same or only slightly more jobs.

Employers are aware of this, are less desperate to employ people as there is now a larger pool of people and so decrease what they are willing to pay a PhD knowing that someone will take it because they need a job. Not a good situation and again it comes back to the BS being spouted on the radio about all the "well-paid" jobs in Science in Ireland.

missmatty

Very interesting thread! I spent seven years in TCD and luckily enough got a contract job (flukily) right away on finishing my research masters. I'm in the biological/veterinary end of things, in the (semi)-state sector. Six years later, I'm still here on a yearly rolling contract with no security. I could be out the door by Christmas for all I know. Three contract people are being let go here this month when their contracts are up, due to the public sector spending freeze. These are excellent highly qualified workers, and no-one had been let go here since I started in 2003, something would always be found for people when their contracts were due to expire. A permanent panel of jobs came up two years ago and I applied via publicjobs.ie. My application vanished into cyberspace and they never got it. I'm a wee bit bitter as plenty people less qualified than me got jobs off that panel :mad: Another panel is due to come up sometime later this year but there will be only 5 jobs this time instead of 20 and tons of people going for them. Hopefully I should be in with a good chance.

To cut a long story short, after 7 years broke and killing myself in college i feel a wee bit put out I love science and what i do suits me perfectly, but there's feck all money in it and permanent jobs are scarce. I don't know if I would encourage a sibling/child of mine to go down this road. I'm 30 and I haven't a hope of buying a house, for example.

seraphimvc

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I want your job. Give it to me.

Or, you know, I'll also accept pointers on how to get a similar job. I love writing, though my ultimate goal is to try and break into science journalism. I may be dreaming there though.

science journalism?check out the girl who run the Techno-threads Techno-threads convention in trinity,i think she is working between writing and science!was an intersting talk from her :)She is eagerly looking for people to involve in the field!

while for the CAO science drops,IMO,doenst mean a thing.focus on the science students who drop out after 1st/2nd year and total of those who finally make it into final year - a science degree isnt that easy to do at all.
hard work + no future guarantee = scare people away

But thinking of SFI/goverment will throw lots of money in 4th level education for the next 5 years (it is a 10years project,oh the money involved is HUGE,check out their website),so doing science at the moment is probably the good time in ireland (i mean going into PhD)

for me a science undergrad surely will live in horror for future many years work my ass off hopefully can get some schorlarship thingy to go study in new/better place in the states or i will gladly to walk into industry to have a taste of non-academia science

p/s:any job related PM are welcomed:P

r3nu4l

seraphimvc wrote: »

But thinking of SFI/goverment will throw lots of money in 4th level education for the next 5 years (it is a 10years project,oh the money involved is HUGE,check out their website),so doing science at the moment is probably the good time in ireland (i mean going into PhD)

The real problem is that despite all the SFI money and Enterprise Ireland funding for new business ventures, nearly all of this work is contract based and if the economy really slips into recession then many science funding programs will be delayed/cut/abandoned. If the government changes focus, your scientific area could see reduced funding too. We need industry to move to Ireland in a big way and set up their research and European regional business unit facilities. Relying on Government money is a dangerous thing.

Then, because we still haven't attracted the right jobs to the country you have the issue of being too experienced at your job and priced out of the market because a company can find someone to do the same job as you for less seeing as how they don't need your level of experience. So you have a choice, accept the lower salary or pass it up and let someone less experienced take it.

Can you PM me the details of this woman who spoke at Trinity College? I'd be interested to learn more about her and the work she's doing. It sounds like she may work in my industry.

As for those who drop out after a year or two. Of those I knew who dropped out, many were not able, some were bored and others decided to re-sit their leaving to get another course. I really believe that if half the people who go for Medicine thought for a minute that they could earn a similar salary as a scientist, they would do Science, not medicine. Medicine, like Law as a career, has big money associated with it. Those that qualify and practice, usually like what they do but I'm sure half of them (medicine students) would make good scientists too. If the salaries, career prospects and status were better you can be sure points would skyrocket.

seraphimvc

r3nu4l wrote: »

The real problem is that despite all the SFI money and Enterprise Ireland funding for new business ventures, nearly all of this work is contract based and if the economy really slips into recession then many science funding programs will be delayed/cut/abandoned. If the government changes focus, your scientific area could see reduced funding too. We need industry to move to Ireland in a big way and set up their research and European regional business unit facilities. Relying on Government money is a dangerous thing.

Agree.still,i know some PI got millions on funding for their research,which is a good sign,but then,for us young student to think of going on the road to be a PI is highly 'insecure':rolleyes:

r3nu4l wrote: »

Then, because we still haven't attracted the right jobs to the country you have the issue of being too experienced at your job and priced out of the market because a company can find someone to do the same job as you for less seeing as how they don't need your level of experience. So you have a choice, accept the lower salary or pass it up and let someone less experienced take it.

Exactly like i heard and guessed - example like a PhD in renalogy would be an overkill to the market,there wont be much position out there can fit you in.Most of the PhD/postdoc from i know mostly involve in academia then maybe if they are 'lucky' they may go into industry,doesnt sound good to me.Ireland has a huge base of pharm companies since about 20 years ago right?i actually just realise that doesnt mean there are alot jobs available.

r3nu4l wrote: »

Can you PM me the details of this woman who spoke at Trinity College? I'd be interested to learn more about her and the work she's doing. It sounds like she may work in my industry.

check this out:
http://www.sciencegallery.ie/press_releases
it is a series of exhibition relating science to other field (like fashion, in that Technothreads event) that supported by SFi/goverment to attract more people get interested in science:pac:that event was held in trinity science block,while i cant remember her name.i think she is the editor of some health newspaper (for doctor) in ireland.will PM her detail after i ask around!

r3nu4l wrote: »

As for those who drop out after a year or two. Of those I knew who dropped out, many were not able, some were bored and others decided to re-sit their leaving to get another course. I really believe that if half the people who go for Medicine thought for a minute that they could earn a similar salary as a scientist, they would do Science, not medicine. Medicine, like Law as a career, has big money associated with it. Those that qualify and practice, usually like what they do but I'm sure half of them (medicine students) would make good scientists too. If the salaries, career prospects and status were better you can be sure points would skyrocket.

that's the reason of pharmacy course being a high points course -it is easier than medicine,potential equally money,in people mind.While i think your target is patient or research objective does matters - i would be bored if i am facing one patient after another everyday:D.but then if they wanna be a specialist in some areas they will need a PhD,being a lab rat for few years,i dont think many doctors are able to do that.from i see most people who do science dont really care about the making money part,maybe except students like me loves math:pac:

the principle i can see now is,scientist is an extreme job ,in most cases,money or fun (research),you can only choose one

ChocolateSauce

I'm doing chemistry, and I'm doing it solely because I love it and I see science as a calling and not a job. I saw that around 1050 students passed chemistry this year, a frightfully low number. In the medium run, this will mean I'll have more job opportunities and a higher salary, but in the long run the companies will pull out of Ireland if there aren't enough workers, and I'll have to follow them or find something else to do, like teaching.

One thing that bothers me about the decline in the interest in science isn't the economic outlook, but the scientific outlook...I don't really care about jobs in the way an economist would, I care about science, and without a large and growing dedicated science community, we (humans) risk loosing our current momentum in advancing scientifically.

Pgibson

In September 2007 James Watson,co-discoverer of structure of the Double Helix, lectured in UCD Dublin.
(See

http://www.ucd.ie/news/0709_sep/180907_watson.html )

Afterwards he was asked what was the best way to improve Irish Science.
His reply was simple:

"Double the pay of scientists."

.