16,000 Badgers killed

MsFifers

Just read this article http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0818/1218868020998.html in the Irish Times which says that 16,000 badgers were killed in the first 4 months of this year to eradicate TB.

I'm finding those numbers incredible! :eek: Would this not put the no. of badgers in the country in danger?

I thought it was more likely for cattle to infect badgers than the other way around. It seems from the article that farmers and processors aren't taking the necessary measures - and it seems to me that the badger is the easy scapegoat.

whitser

the countryside is alive with badgers. they are far from endangered. just look at the amount dead on the roads, they're every where.

Judgement Day

I think that the jury is still out on this one. Do bagers spread TB amongst cattle - see this piece from Wikipedia? But I suspect that the 16,000 figure in the Irish Times is way off the mark.

British farmers and successive governments have long believed that bovine TB was being spread by badgers and infecting the national dairy herd, and since the 1970s badgers have been culled by gassing (now ceased) and shooting in attempts to prevent this spread.
Tests carried out by the Ministry of Agriculture in the early 1970s showed that TB was more common in badgers than in other species. In the first Badger Act (1973), meant that licenses had to be issued for the killing of badgers. However, there are various other theories concerning the transmission of TB to cattle, and badger culling remains a contentious issue in the UK. Research into the specific mechanisms of how cattle contract bovine TB from badgers and into normal levels of transmission when culling is not practised is scanty. Following the recommendations of the Krebs report of 1997 (Bovine Tuberculosis in Cattle and Badgers[2]), a research trial of badger culling, the Randomised Badger Culling Trial (RBCT)[3], was begun. Part of the aim was to establish baselines which could be used to assess the efficacy of culls in future. As noted in the Godfray report (Independent Scientific Review of the Randomised Badger Culling Trial and Associated Epidemiological Research) of March 2004, the trial has experienced major problems (in particular delays in culling due to restrictions imposed by the control of the foot and mouth disease epidemic in 2001.
The Randomised Badger Culling Trial [4] (designed, overseen and analysed by the Independent Scientific Group on Cattle TB, or ISG [5]) was a large field trial of widescale (proactive) culling and localised reactive culling (in comparison with areas which received no badger culling). In their final report [6], the ISG concluded: "First, while badgers are clearly a source of cattle TB, careful evaluation of our own and others’ data indicates that badger culling can make no meaningful contribution to cattle TB control in Britain. Indeed, some policies under consideration are likely to make matters worse rather than better. Second, weaknesses in cattle testing regimes mean that cattle themselves contribute significantly to the persistence and spread of disease in all areas where TB occurs, and in some parts of Britain are likely to be the main source of infection. Scientific findings indicate that the rising incidence of disease can be reversed, and geographical spread contained, by the rigid application of cattle-based control measures alone." On 26 July 2007, the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Rooker) said "My Lords, we welcome the Independent Scientific Group’s final report, which further improves the evidence base. We are carefully considering the issues that the report raises, and will continue to work with industry, government advisers and scientific experts in reaching policy decisions on these issues."[7]
Badgers are popular with the general public, if not with farmers, and societies exist to protect the species. The Badger Trust is the umbrella body for a series of groups like the Lancashire Badger Group formed for the conservation of these animals. Their most serious threat is automobile traffic, which kills about 50,000 badgers a year in Britain.I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"]citation needed[/URL][/I In 2004, there were between 250,000 and 300,000 badgers in the wild in Britain.

whitser

farmers still dont want large populations of badgers on their land. its illegal for them to control them so they have to use the dept of argi. as badger has no natural predetors then its up to the dept to keep their numbers in check.

MsFifers

The badgerwatch ireland site says that 6,000 badgers were culled by the Dept in 2002 - it seems a huge increase to 16,000 in the space of a few years. I doubt their population increased in line during the same period.

If there is now a Dept policy to increase its cull numbers, it seems more based on farmer pressure than science.

Whitser - is the farmer attitude based on the TB risk or do badgers cause other kinds of damage on farmland? I thought they ate slugs & snails etc - thought that might be helpful to farmers!

whitser

t.b mostly. but they will take stock on occasion. also they do alot of damage collapsing bank and ditches with their digging. a farmer i know this not only had tb but also had to re-fence a field after a bank collapsed in cos of badgers digging and weakening the edge then heard of heavy cattle walks on it and it falls in..farmers dont healthy/manageable levels of badgers on their land but as i said with no natural predators and being so highly protected by the state its up to the state to keep mumbers in check.

rosiec

16,000 is way over estimated. Way way way way over! Without going into too much detail about what i do, i know how many badgers are killed each year and its was no where near 16,000 in the first 4 months. Even the bagder trusts estimate of 6,000 for 2007 is a bit high. There is evidence that there is TB cross over between both badgers and cows. Up to 50% of badgers in badly effected areas are found to have TB (UCD study). But before anybody jumps on me about culling badgers i'd just like to say that culling badgers is a last resort. If a herd goes down with TB then the whole herd history is investigated to see if there is any other reason why the infection should be in the herd.

As for badger diet a new study in Trinity College has shown that their diet varies throughout the year, but in spring they specialise in leatherjackets or daddylong legs babies! These grubs are found under the soil and eat grass roots, but while its good that the badger gets rid of them, the badger have to dig them out, leaving large cleared areas in fileds. As they occure in huge numbers in some place some farmers are (justifibably) not impressed too see their best pasture dig up!

MsFifers

Just to clarify, Badgerwatch Ireland's figure of 6,000 (actually 6115) were a reprint of figures released by the Dept of Ag. as a result of a parliamentary question by Trevor Sargent, and this was for 2002 not 2007. The Irish Times 16,000 figure was based on an EU Food & Vetinary Office report, I think. I would have thought they would be a reliable source of info.

Whitser - I never heard of badgers "taking stock" - you mean they actually attack and eat a lamb/calf?!!! How can an animal that lives on insects suddenly decide to eat something so much bigger than itself? Are you talking about badger attacks on worm farms or something?!

What figure would you put on it so rosiec? Glad to hear that people think the 16,000 is an overestimation - I know they cause big issues for farmers, but badgers are a lovely animal!

rosiec

I agree they are gorgeos animals! I've never heard of them taking stock either but they are omnivores and happy opportunists so they will eat mice, frogs, rabbits if they can catch them, or scavenge if they have the opportunity to do so.

I think the 16,000 must be a misprint or maybe a cumlative number over a number of years. I'd estimate that around 5,000 would be culled each year but thats not a hard fast number. It really depends on how many herds have positive TB tests. The less cattle with Tb the less badgers will be culled.The Dept. of Ag have a set percentage of farmland that they are allowed to cull but they've never had to use all of it. Its expensive to cull animals so if they could get away with not doing it them they would!!

whitser

ive been told by farmers of occasions when badgers took lambs and another of time when one was taking fowl, another story i heard was of badgers eating the milk filled tits off sheep when they were birthing or stuck on the ground. these were stories related to me by farmers who i've no reason to doubt.
i didnt sat it was the norm,like say foxes. but badgers are wild animals and will kill and take wont pass up a free meal. and i also said it was one of a number of reasons that farmers wont their numbers controlled. any wild animal on a farm can become pest when its numbers are too big,rats,rabbits,mice foxes and badgers.

lightening

This is an opinion from a professional in the field, I found it very interesting, well informed and not reliant on hearsay, old wives tales and myth.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56585280&postcount=17

meditraitor

Maybe im wrong but my understnding is that this was 16000 badgers in the EU, not just Ireland?

NoNameRanger

whitser wrote: »

ive been told by farmers of occasions when badgers took lambs and another of time when one was taking fowl, another story i heard was of badgers eating the milk filled tits off sheep when they were birthing or stuck on the ground. these were stories related to me by farmers who i've no reason to doubt.
i didnt sat it was the norm,like say foxes. but badgers are wild animals and will kill and take wont pass up a free meal. and i also said it was one of a number of reasons that farmers wont their numbers controlled. any wild animal on a farm can become pest when its numbers are too big,rats,rabbits,mice foxes and badgers.

I wouldn't believe the Our Father out of a farmer when it comes to wildlife matters. Their knowledge is usually based on hearsay, wives tales and what their Daddies told them. Did they tell you to put sticks in your wellie boots incase one grabs your leg, cos you know they won't let go till they hear it break.:rolleyes:
It's about time farmers in this country learned to live with wildlife and accept that wildlife will be a inconvenience at times. When it's serious damage then there are procedures in place to deal with that legally, but killing everything that moves as a preventative measure is very Victorian and definitely not the answer.

lightening wrote: »

This is an opinion from a professional in the field, I found it very interesting, well informed and not reliant on hearsay, old wives tales and myth.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56585280&postcount=17

Thanks, I was going to refer to that.:)

rosiec wrote: »

I agree they are gorgeos animals! I've never heard of them taking stock either but they are omnivores and happy opportunists so they will eat mice, frogs, rabbits if they can catch them, or scavenge if they have the opportunity to do so.

I think the 16,000 must be a misprint or maybe a cumlative number over a number of years. I'd estimate that around 5,000 would be culled each year but thats not a hard fast number. It really depends on how many herds have positive TB tests. The less cattle with Tb the less badgers will be culled.The Dept. of Ag have a set percentage of farmland that they are allowed to cull but they've never had to use all of it. Its expensive to cull animals so if they could get away with not doing it them they would!!

Hi Rosie, you are well informed.:) But what will they get all the lads to do if they are not culling badgers? Pay them to sit at home? No doubt there are great people in the Dept of Ag, but its still the civil service.:rolleyes:

whitser

lightening wrote: »

This is an opinion from a professional in the field, I found it very interesting, well informed and not reliant on hearsay, old wives tales and myth.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56585280&postcount=17

that link only deals with the tb issue. there's other issues as far as farmers are concerned. at the end of the day farmers dont want their land crawling with badgers. the state has protected them,so they should cull them if the farmer requires it.

whitser

i never said kill every thing moves and i never heard a farmer say it either. but ranger you must admit that having a situation on a farm where theres un capped breeding population of badgers is not ideal. as far as what i was told by farmers,its what i was told. you'll also have people tell you that foxes dont take lambs, more heresay and myth. if the state protects badgers and wont help farmers to control them what will happen?

AlanSparrowhawk

Can any one find me the FVO report the newspaper article references? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

lightening

whitser wrote: »

another story i heard was of badgers eating the milk filled tits off sheep when they were birthing or stuck on the ground. these were stories related to me by farmers who i've no reason to doubt.

This story sounds like a pile of myth, no offense Whitser, but seriously?

AlanSparrowhawk

lightening wrote: »

This story sounds like a pile of myth, no offense Whitser, but seriously?

I don't think the truth of that anecdote is relevant. The badgers were/are culled to help prevent the spread of bovine TB not because they're a nuisance to farmers.

MsFifers

AlanSparrowhawk - you can download it from here:

http://ec.europa.eu/food/fvo/ir_search_en.cfm?stype=insp_nbr&showResults=Y&REP_INSPECTION_REF=7366/2007

NoNameRanger

whitser wrote: »

i never said kill every thing moves and i never heard a farmer say it either. but ranger you must admit that having a situation on a farm where theres un capped breeding population of badgers is not ideal. as far as what i was told by farmers,its what i was told. you'll also have people tell you that foxes dont take lambs, more heresay and myth. if the state protects badgers and wont help farmers to control them what will happen?

Section 42 of the wildlife act deals with this. Any farmer can apply for a licence to kill, scare or trap basically any species of protected animal if it is causing serious damage. That damage is accessed by a Ranger and the Ranger recommends weather the licence should be granted or not. If it is left to the farmers they would remove all protected species as a preventative measure if it was possible.
I have seen the damage done to pasture by badgers and it can be quite serious at times and Section 42 licences can be granted for this. The population of Badgers in this country is not as high as you might think. Badgers do have a predator, its called the car! It kills alot more than the wolves and bears ever did.

whitser

i didnt make it up, i only said what was said to me. i also never said these things were common or usual or par for the course things to happen. but in nature anything can happen, and i've no reason to doubt the man. and im sure any farmer or person who spends their entire life out in the fields could tell you some fantastic or unbelievable stories of unusuall things happening.wether its true or not, farmers still dont want un cappped and high levlels of badgers on their farms for a multitude of reasons.

whitser

i've seen the damage done to the bank that collapsed alright cos of badgers tunnelling. does a section 42 cost the farmer?

lightening

whitser wrote: »

i didnt make it up, i only said what was said to me.

Of course, I understand. Just some of the stories are so far fetched sometimes they can negate the other stories!

MsFifers

Aha! Having had a look through the report I see that from 1 Jan 2004 to 20th Apr 2007 16,178 badgers were killed out of an estimated population of 120,000. Not quite 4 months then!

(Can't cut & paste from it for some reason!)

They also say the number of badgers being killed in recent years is increasing and that ERAD would prefer a badger vaccination programme rather than culling but there is no effective vaccine for badgers yet.

AlanSparrowhawk

MsFifers wrote: »

AlanSparrowhawk - you can download it from here:

http://ec.europa.eu/food/fvo/ir_search_en.cfm?stype=insp_nbr&showResults=Y&REP_INSPECTION_REF=7366/2007

Thanks. I found that myself but because it was from 2007 I presumed it wasn't the article Paul Cullen refers to.

NoNameRanger

whitser wrote: »

i've seen the damage done to the bank that collapsed alright cos of badgers tunnelling. does a section 42 cost the farmer?

As with all licences (except falconary) from the wildlife service it is totally free.:cool: It is not possible for me to say weather a Section 42 licence would be granted unless i see the damage first hand.

rosiec

The vaccine is not so far away. They've started doing bait up take trials to see if the animals will eat the proposed bait substance which will be filled with the vaccine. As far as i kow the vaccine is pretty much complete. Its based loosely on the BCG vaccine given to kids. Its just a matter of getting the badgers to eat the stuff in the correct amounts now! (probably the hardest bit! :rolleyes:)

NoNameRanger

rosiec wrote: »

The vaccine is not so far away. They've started doing bait up take trials to see if the animals will eat the proposed bait substance which will be filled with the vaccine. As far as i kow the vaccine is pretty much complete. Its based loosely on the BCG vaccine given to kids. Its just a matter of getting the badgers to eat the stuff in the correct amounts now! (probably the hardest bit! :rolleyes:)

Any word on more frequent testing of cattle, especially prior to moving them? It is really badly needed and is the root cause of the spread of TB in my opinion.

A scheme needs to be implemented where when a farmer wants to move cattle by road on a truck, he must have a cert to say they have been tested in the previous two weeks and they are TB free. And it would need to be enforced!

MsFifers

NoNameRanger wrote: »

Any word on more frequent testing of cattle, especially prior to moving them? It is really badly needed and is the root cause of the spread of TB in my opinion.

A scheme needs to be implemented where when a farmer wants to move cattle by road on a truck, he must have a cert to say they have been tested in the previous two weeks and they are TB free. And it would need to be enforced!

But then you would hear the farmers complaining that all the paperwork and bureaucracy is making their lives impossible. :rolleyes: Much easier to blame a sheep-eating badger and get the snares in!

boneless

NoNameRanger wrote: »

Any word on more frequent testing of cattle, especially prior to moving them? It is really badly needed and is the root cause of the spread of TB in my opinion.

A scheme needs to be implemented where when a farmer wants to move cattle by road on a truck, he must have a cert to say they have been tested in the previous two weeks and they are TB free. And it would need to be enforced!

I fully agree that the current regs need to be enforced but as cutbacks are looming I wonder will they? Sorry, I mean "re-adjustments" not cutbacks .

rosiec

Havent heard of more frequent testing but i agree with you that its badly needed. Any movement of cattle should be accompanied with health certs (okay, within reason now!) But i think more could be done to "badgerproof" sheds to keep cattle/badger contact to a minimum. Places in the UK have had good results with putting a low eletric fence around the outsides of store houses and cattle sheds, and leaving cattle cake in sealed containers.

I know farmers get a raw deal in some areas (i come fom good farming stock!!) and I'm not saying that farmers should be responsible for implimenting these changes but its a good thing to be opened minded about new ideas.

rosiec

MsFifers wrote: »

But then you would hear the farmers complaining that all the paperwork and bureaucracy is making their lives impossible. :rolleyes: Much easier to blame a sheep-eating badger and get the snares in!

I think thats a bit unfair. Farming is a tough business. It wasnt too long ago that farmers were getting less than 33c for a litre of milk. Most farmers would be up for more frequent testing if it meant having their herds free of disease. Its not all compensation and freetime when a cow has a reaction to the TB test. The farm gets locked down for months, meaning no animals can be moved, no milk or produce can be sold while more tests are done. Then the farmers face the prospect of seeing the entire herd being killed. These are herds that they've built up over decades, trying to improve milk production, muscle etc.

Appologies if i sound santimonious! I just think its very easy for us to sit back and say its all the farmers fault for not doing x, y and z. rarely are things as clear cut as that!

MsFifers

rosiec wrote: »

I think thats a bit unfair. Farming is a tough business. It wasnt too long ago that farmers were getting less than 33c for a litre of milk. Most farmers would be up for more frequent testing if it meant having their herds free of disease. Its not all compensation and freetime when a cow has a reaction to the TB test. The farm gets locked down for months, meaning no animals can be moved, no milk or produce can be sold while more tests are done. Then the farmers face the prospect of seeing the entire herd being killed. These are herds that they've built up over decades, trying to improve milk production, muscle etc.

Appologies if i sound santimonious! I just think its very easy for us to sit back and say its all the farmers fault for not doing x, y and z. rarely are things as clear cut as that!

I do realise that - sorry, bad joke!

rosiec

No worries, appologies myself.............. think i got carried away with the whole issue!! Kudos though for starting the thread, its had some interesting stuff