New M50 prices

luckat

Directing people here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=56931346&posted=1#post56931346

It's going to cost a lot more to travel along the M50 when the toll barriers come down next week.

You can register for a tag, which you have to *rent* for €12 a year (why?) *as well as* paying the €2 toll every time you go through the toll area.

Or you can register your licence number, and then you pay €2.50 every time you go through - a 20% rise in the payment to the NTR, when they're going to *save* money by not having to employ staff at the barriers, keep the barriers running and pay the energy costs for them, or count all those coins.

Or you can do neither and pay €3 per journey!

Where is Consumer Affairs? Are they out there?

Tipsy Mac

It's actually gone up by more than 20%, the price no longer is subject to 21% VAT as the money is going directly to the government.

cgarvey

luckat wrote: »

It's going to cost a lot more to travel along the M50 when the toll barriers come down next week.

Like lots of other products & services!

luckat wrote: »

*rent* for €12 a year (why?)

To pay for the ongoing costs associated with it (web site, invoicing, etc.). €12 might be a bit steep, granted, but there are costs involved.

luckat wrote: »

a 20% rise in the payment to the NTR

Did you miss the bit in the news where the NTR contract was bought out?

luckat wrote: »

they're going to *save* money by not having to employ staff at the barriers, keep the barriers running and pay the energy costs for them, or count all those coins.

Right, but they're also going to have back office system costs, licensing, credit card merchant fees, and ongoing camera/sensor/network costs to pay for (nevermind motoroway costs)

Someone has to pay for the motorway upgrade and ongoing costs. This seems like a step forward (barrier free tolling, 3rd/4th lanes, free-flow junctions) and paid for locally. If you don't think the government is doing an efficient job, then that's an entirely different debate.

Guy:Incognito

Depends on your definition of "a lot" . Most of us probably lose €12 a year in change throiugh various means.

luckat

'Most of us' may, but if one company were to gather up all those twelveses, it would make a lot of money.

NTR will already be getting higher fees in any case, why on earth should people have to subsidise it further.

I keep harking back to this, but in Malaysia, an 850km motorway, including a fibre optic cable all the way along, took four years to build.

The government contracted the job to a private company, to build and operate the road for 30 years - so the faster it built the road, the faster it could start charging tolls.

The tolls were strictly limited by the government.

I don't at all mind paying for a service, but paying a fee that is slapped on top of that, and for which I get nothing, annoys the hell out of me.

Guy:Incognito

Luckat wrote: »

'Most of us' may, but if one company were to gather up all those twelveses, it would make a lot of money. .

So the companies providing the tag should do it for the love of the game?

cgarvey wrote: »

NTR will already be getting higher fees in any case, why on earth should people have to subsidise it further. .

cgarvey wrote: »

Did you miss the bit in the news where the NTR contract was bought out?

.

mikemac

For motorbikes anyway
Take the hint OP, come join us

JohnC.

luckat wrote: »

NTR will already be getting higher fees in any case, why on earth should people have to subsidise it further.

How do you keep missing the fact that NTR are no longer running it?

luckat

I keep missing it because I didn't know it. Who's running what now?

No, I don't think companies should do their work without profit. But I don't think they should get extra profit on top of that profit either.

Wiki has NTR owning the M50 toll bridge, and Irish Broadband as a subsidiary of NTR; has this changed?

penexpers

luckat wrote: »

I keep missing it because I didn't know it. Who's running what now?

No, I don't think companies should do their work without profit. But I don't think they should get extra profit on top of that profit either.

Wiki has NTR owning the M50 toll bridge, and Irish Broadband as a subsidiary of NTR; has this changed?

It will change on August 31st when the Government buy NTR out of the contract. From then on, the all the toll-tag companies will be collecting the toll on behalf of the Government.

luckat

Ah, so it's the *Government* that's going to be ripping us off. What a relief.

Guy:Incognito

luckat wrote: »

Ah, so it's the *Government* that's going to be ripping us off. What a relief.

How? The toll is still €2.

OIh and the government is a real thing btw. Not some makey uppy "company"

luckat

The toll isn't still €2.

If you have the tag, it's €2 per journey, plus €12 a year.

If you register your licence plate (can't see on their website how to do this without getting a tag), it's €2.50 per journey.

If you don't register your licence plate, it's €3 per journey.

As I said, I travel through the toll bridge about twice a month - once on my way to the airport, and once on the way back. Either I pay €1 extra a month by buying the tag, or I pay €1 extra a month by registering my licence plates. Oh, or don't register them and get to pay €2 extra a month. Free money for the comp - oops, the Government.

But if you're happy to be charged extra, that's fine. I'm happy for you too.

Guy:Incognito

luckat wrote: »

The toll isn't still €2.

If you have the tag, it's €2 per journey, plus €12 a year.

If you register your licence plate (can't see on their website how to do this without getting a tag), it's €2.50 per journey.

If you don't register your licence plate, it's €3 per journey.

As I said, I travel through the toll bridge about twice a month - once on my way to the airport, and once on the way back. Either I pay €1 extra a month by buying the tag, or I pay €1 extra a month by registering my licence plates. Oh, or don't register them and get to pay €2 extra a month. Free money for the comp - oops, the Government.

But if you're happy to be charged extra, that's fine. I'm happy for you too.

The toll is still €2. Te €12 is the service charege on the account for the tag.

How is the government making more?


If your making more than 12 journeys a year it's cheaper to register. Why would you not register?

€12 a year is not going to bankrupt anyon who can afford a car and the toll in the first place. Especially when you factor in th reduced cost of time and petrol from not sitting for hours queing.

luckat wrote: »

But if you're happy to be charged extra, that's fine. I'm happy for you too.

Whos going to pay the companies to supply and run the tags and billign systms?

luckat

The toll is not more.

The price *is* more.

If the company were charging in what I personally would regard as a correct way, it would charge a small fee for issuing the tag, but not charge rent for it.

Sam Vimes

agreed. I have no problem buying a tag but this idea of renting it is really pissing me off. I'm paying for the inconvenience and cost involved in having my personal details stored in a database somewhere. Bullshit tbh

Del2005

luckat wrote: »

The toll is not more.

The price *is* more.

If the company were charging in what I personally would regard as a correct way, it would charge a small fee for issuing the tag, but not charge rent for it.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

agreed. I have no problem buying a tag but this idea of renting it is really pissing me off. I'm paying for the inconvenience and cost involved in having my personal details stored in a database somewhere. Bullshit tbh

You can buy a tag off tolltag.ie for €30, but they will charge you a 10% commission on all the toll roads if you use this.

The toll is a scam and unfortunately the only way not to pay it is to not use the M50. The goverement fcuked up and now we the public are paying for it, but there is nothing we can do as they have already signed the deal.

Sam Vimes

Del2005 wrote: »

You can buy a tag off tolltag.ie for €30, but they will charge you a 10% commission on all the toll roads if you use this.

The toll is a scam and unfortunately the only way not to pay it is to not use the M50. The goverement fcuked up and now we the public are paying for it, but there is nothing we can do as they have already signed the deal.

so my choices are pay money for nothing or pay more whenever i use the bridge to avoid paying money for nothing. would i be right in saying that the government could have built the bridge for a fraction of the money that's been given to NTR?

i now have to do a calculation: if i use the m50 more than 60 times a year, i'd be better off paying the money for nothing than paying the 10% surcharge


i wish we lived in france. their government doesn't get away with bollocks like this because the whole country grind to a halt because the people have just set fire to large parts of it

edit:my new route:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=M50+%4053.351109,+-6.385638&daddr=Lower+Lucan+Rd%2FR109+%4053.363289,+-6.440571+to:Clonsilla+Rd%2FR121+%4053.383011,+-6.409778+to:Blanchardstown+Bypass%2FN3+%4053.389787,+-6.377259+to:53.389671,-6.351589&hl=en&geocode=14120338630293444766,53.351109,-6.385638%3B18296663419815347112,53.363289,-6.440571%3B986030379400087125,53.383011,-6.409778%3B3832749307073778066,53.389787,-6.377259&mra=mi&mrcr=3&mrsp=4&sz=17&sll=53.388793,-6.353896&sspn=0.004754,0.013947&ie=UTF8&ll=53.377901,-6.365204&spn=0.076085,0.22316&z=13

i'd rather do that than pay the 20c to those c*nts

STUBBORNGIRL

Sorry for being clueless about this but i only use the M50 on odd occasion - bout 4times a year if even that!HAve i gotten this right?? if i register for the tag that is costing me 12euro and 2euro for every time i use ithe M50 so lets say 4*2=8euro so overall my cost in the year is 20euro! Now if i dont register its 3*4 = 12euro! that is a saving of 8euro!! AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE???

Sometimes i miss the exit for liffey Valley and end up at the toll to pay (rarely happens but i have been known to do it) if i havent bought that tag how do i pay the 3euro??

Again im sorry but it doesnt make much sense to me at all!

Del2005

STUBBORNGIRL wrote: »

Sorry for being clueless about this but i only use the M50 on odd occasion - bout 4times a year if even that!HAve i gotten this right?? if i register for the tag that is costing me 12euro and 2euro for every time i use ithe M50 so lets say 4*2=8euro so overall my cost in the year is 20euro! Now if i dont register its 3*4 = 12euro! that is a saving of 8euro!! AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE???

Sometimes i miss the exit for liffey Valley and end up at the toll to pay (rarely happens but i have been known to do it) if i havent bought that tag how do i pay the 3euro??

Again im sorry but it doesnt make much sense to me at all!

Your best bet is to go with video registration. It charges you €2.50 whenever you cross the bridge, taken from your bank. So instead of paying €20 you'll pay €10.

http://eflow.ie/Payment/OpenAccount.aspx

galah

and all the tourists, foreign reg cars and tampered-with license plate holders go free (on top of not paying road tax) - that annoys me the most.

Also, is it just me or does the government consistently miss opportunities to make money?

Del2005

Sam Vimes wrote: »

so my choices are pay money for nothing or pay more whenever i use the bridge to avoid paying money for nothing. would i be right in saying that the government could have built the bridge for a fraction of the money that's been given to NTR?

i now have to do a calculation: if i use the m50 more than 60 times a year, i'd be better off paying the money for nothing than paying the 10% surcharge


i wish we lived in france. their government doesn't get away with bollocks like this because the whole country grind to a halt because the people have just set fire to large parts of it

edit:my new route:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=M50+%4053.351109,+-6.385638&daddr=Lower+Lucan+Rd%2FR109+%4053.363289,+-6.440571+to:Clonsilla+Rd%2FR121+%4053.383011,+-6.409778+to:Blanchardstown+Bypass%2FN3+%4053.389787,+-6.377259+to:53.389671,-6.351589&hl=en&geocode=14120338630293444766,53.351109,-6.385638%3B18296663419815347112,53.363289,-6.440571%3B986030379400087125,53.383011,-6.409778%3B3832749307073778066,53.389787,-6.377259&mra=mi&mrcr=3&mrsp=4&sz=17&sll=53.388793,-6.353896&sspn=0.004754,0.013947&ie=UTF8&ll=53.377901,-6.365204&spn=0.076085,0.22316&z=13

i'd rather do that than pay the 20c to those c*nts

Yep, the goverment are screwing us and the route you've shown is the only other option. The only problem with that route is there is no way in hell that it can be done in 9min, even in the middle of the night.

My question is how much do you value your time? Because you are wasting a lot of it and petrol/diesel to spite the goverment 20c. Also you would proberly give the goverment more money if you drove that route as they get most of the price you pay for fuel.

Sam Vimes

Del2005 wrote: »

Yep, the goverment are screwing us and the route you've shown is the only other option. The only problem with that route is there is no way in hell that it can be done in 9min, even in the middle of the night.

My question is how much do you value your time? Because you are wasting a lot of it and petrol/diesel to spite the goverment 20c. Also you would proberly give the goverment more money if you drove that route as they get most of the price you pay for fuel.

it's grand for me because i live down that way anyway so i would never really be doing the whole route. i often go that way anyway to avoid traffic but you're right that in the middle of the night it'd be faster to go the m50 way

stepbar

I signed up for one of the etoll tags. I only use the M4 once or twice a month. Even with the admin fee, I will save money a "small" amount of money. TBH I don't have a problem with the toll on the M4. With the M4 I save a hour on my journey. As for the east / west link I'm not so sure.

brightkane

galah wrote: »

tampered-with license plate holders go free

I would imagine a big increase on tampered with plates, using masking tape on digits ect. I know alot of it gos on with the fill up and drive off at petrol station racket.

Jip

Sam Vimes wrote: »

edit:my new route:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=M50+%4053.351109,+-6.385638&daddr=Lower+Lucan+Rd%2FR109+%4053.363289,+-6.440571+to:Clonsilla+Rd%2FR121+%4053.383011,+-6.409778+to:Blanchardstown+Bypass%2FN3+%4053.389787,+-6.377259+to:53.389671,-6.351589&hl=en&geocode=14120338630293444766,53.351109,-6.385638%3B18296663419815347112,53.363289,-6.440571%3B986030379400087125,53.383011,-6.409778%3B3832749307073778066,53.389787,-6.377259&mra=mi&mrcr=3&mrsp=4&sz=17&sll=53.388793,-6.353896&sspn=0.004754,0.013947&ie=UTF8&ll=53.377901,-6.365204&spn=0.076085,0.22316&z=13

i'd rather do that than pay the 20c to those c*nts

So you'd rather add what could be an extra hour on a bad day onto your journey not to mention the additional fuel costs ?

JohnC.

What other roads have tolls? The ads say these tags work on all the toll roads. The only one I am actually aware of is the M50. I know the new Waterford bypass will have one when that eventually opens. Are there many more?

luckat

There's one on the way to Galway, anyway. I think there's one on the road from Bray into town.

Guy:Incognito

Sam Vimes wrote: »

i wish we lived in france. their government doesn't get away with bollocks like this because the whole country grind to a halt because the people have just set fire to large parts of it

France is full of toll roads.

paconnors

personally myself i'd prefer the tags it will stop some cu*t robbing my plates. the Nra can't rebill you if you have signed for a tag can they

luckat

Oh, I'd much sooner the tag. But it shouldn't be a way of breastfeeding the government and the company money.

You should be able to buy it, flat - and then pay tolls using it.

The idea that 'administering' a million e-accounts is more expensive than counting coins, paying the energy for toll barriers, having staff costs on the toll 'plazas', etc is a makey-uppy.

It's just that the word 'robbery' comes so naturally to the lips of our betters when they hear the word 'highway'.

penexpers

Kahless wrote: »

What other roads have tolls? The ads say these tags work on all the toll roads. The only one I am actually aware of is the M50. I know the new Waterford bypass will have one when that eventually opens. Are there many more?

M4 at Enfield
M1 at Drogheda
M8 at Fermoy
East Link
Port Tunnel

Tags will work on all these toll booths.

penexpers

Del2005 wrote: »

My question is how much do you value your time? Because you are wasting a lot of it and petrol/diesel to spite the goverment 20c. Also you would proberly give the goverment more money if you drove that route as they get most of the price you pay for fuel.

The government don't get 20c, it's the toll collecters that get the 20c.

penexpers

Stekelly wrote: »

France is full of toll roads.

Yes, but in most cases there are high quality alternatives provided. And there are still large parts of the country (Brittany comes to mind) with no tolled roads.

Sam Vimes

Jip wrote: »

So you'd rather add what could be an extra hour on a bad day onto your journey not to mention the additional fuel costs ?

i've driven that way hundreds of times and it only takes about 20 mins, and i live over that way.

Sam Vimes

Stekelly wrote: »

France is full of toll roads.

my problem isn't with toll roads, it's with a government who don't want to spend tax building a bridge so they let a private company build it and turn it into a car park for 20 years (or however long it was) while they collect many multiples of what the bridge would have cost from the same tax payers and then when the 20 years are up the government buy out the company for what was most likely more than the bridge would have cost because they didn't do a proper deal in the first place and then put a ridiculous administration fee onto tolls to make back the money they spent buying out the company. We could have had a bridge to new york for the amount of money spent on the feckin thing

so to recap, my problem's not with toll roads

Guy:Incognito

Sam Vimes wrote: »

my problem isn't with toll roads, it's with a government who don't want to spend tax building a bridge so they let a private company build it and turn it into a car park for 20 years (or however long it was) while they collect many multiples of what the bridge would have cost from the same tax payers and then when the 20 years are up the government buy out the company for what was most likely more than the bridge would have cost because they didn't do a proper deal in the first place and then put a ridiculous administration fee onto tolls to make back the money they spent buying out the company. We could have had a bridge to new york for the amount of money spent on the feckin thing

so to recap, my problem's not with toll roads

Do you realise the actual state the countries finances were in when the bridge was built? Between the lot of us we didnt have 2 5p pieces to rub together.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

i've driven that way hundreds of times and it only takes about 20 mins, and i live over that way.

Well then theres no issue, just continue to go around the bridge.

penexpers wrote: »

Yes, but in most cases there are high quality alternatives provided. And there are still large parts of the country (Brittany comes to mind) with no tolled roads.

There are large parts of our country with no tolls either. In fact you can count all the tolls on your fingers.



I live on the southside and work mainly on the northside (I have different jobs all over the place) The only time I have used the toll bridge this year is 2 trips to Belfast. It's not difficult to not use it if you dont want to pay the toll.

Sam Vimes

Stekelly wrote: »

Do you realise the actual state the countries finances were in when the bridge was built? Between the lot of us we didnt have 2 5p pieces to rub together.

We didn't have the money to build the bridge so the government signed a deal that meant tax payers paid many many times what they would have done if the government had just built the bridge.....

luckat

It's the single biggest problem with this country: the inability - no, the unwillingness - to plan for the future and follow a structured, well-made, sensible plan.

It's part of personal life too, and business life. We don't use the 'Protestant Ethic'. The country would be improved 1,000 per cent if we did.

Meanwhile, my own strategy for dealing with this ripoff - and probably that of thousands of others - is to *not* get the tag. When billed for the €3 for each journey, I'll pay, but I'll take a while.

Now *that* would cause administrative costs.

If they decide to sell the tags with a one-off payment, rather than renting them out, I'll immediately buy one.

cgarvey

luckat wrote: »

The idea that 'administering' a million e-accounts is more expensive than counting coins, paying the energy for toll barriers, having staff costs on the toll 'plazas', etc is a makey-uppy.

Spoken like a man who has plenty of experience in OLTP and e-commerce... not! The energy bill for the toll barriers is negligible (closer to a light bulb, than a 1KW heater). The staff costs are large, and there will be a saving there. However there's new costs involved. The costs of the cameras (with ongoing maintenance/replacement costs), and the associated ANPR software (with ongoing licensing costs). There's the hardware and software costs of managing the daily transactions, and offloading them to the various tag companies, or the Kerry (?) solicitors awarded with the contract to chase non-payers.

So, who pays for that? Or are those (non-exhaustive) charges "makey-uppy"?

The idea behind the tag (and related storing of personal and payment details) is to make it convenient, not inconvenient. If you think it's inconvenient then you're not in the majority, by any stretch, and you'll have way more issues (such as banking, credit/debit cards, e-passports, data leaks, etc.) than just this measly toll tag! For the convenience you are charged rental (or a service fee, if you buy the tag outright). That charge goes towards the cost of hardware and software as well as credit/debit card charges the company are charged. They are companies, whose primary interest is to make a profit, granted. However, history shows us that they are in a much better position to run the service far more efficiently than the government, even allowing for their profit. Again, if they don't charge that rental/service fee, who pays it?

luckat

Tolltag.ie seems to be offering three other versions, but the price is still ridiculous -

a) €30 to buy the tag (or currently €25.50), then 10% charge every time you use it,

b) the tag for free, but a requirement to put in €40 the first time, €20 for the next top-up and then keep a balance of €12 and a 10% charge,

c) a 'free' tag, but a €1.21 monthly fee, no charge on top of the toll but the same first and second topup requirements (this third option is actually dearer than the NTR version, I think?)

philiph

In our defence the third tolltag option has a lower minimum topup than the others (20 eur) We have no choice and a legal obligation to charge VAT 21% as we are a private company, the state on the other hand do not have to charge VAT (something wrong with this competitive picture?:eek:). The price is 1 eur NET. Effectively if you are a business the price is the same. If you are not then the tolltag leas option is 2.42 a year dearer but your minimum topup is significantly less

PhilipH