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14-08-2008 9:02pm#1
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Well we're in the real world and I certainly wouldn't hire a "developer" if he couldn't code HTML.
If a developer doesn't know HTML, how is he supposed to get meaningful results from the script he has written?
If he doesn't know HTML, how would he know his programming is outputting correctly?
But back to my point - how am I not correct in saying that "he will still have to output his results to HTML". So what else will he output the results to if he's developing a website?
Strings - unformatted strings. For an example see below..function blah() { return "Hello World"; } $template->assign('world', blah()); $template->display('template.tpl');
Developer 1 writes the above code, gives list of outputs to designer that says the only variable is {$world} so use it where it needs to be put.<html> <body> <div align="center"><h1>{$world}</h1></div> </body> </html>
Complete separation of HTML coder from actual back-end developer. I n this scenario the developer needs to know how to handle $_POST, $_GET (or $_REQUEST) data if there are to be form and it would be better to have an understanding of html, but they wouldn't need to know how to code HTML.
I did this for quite a number of years when I was in secondary school while I developed my PHP coding abilities. It isn't the case for me anymore (I do know CSS/HTML and work as a web developer) but not knowing HTML/CSS didn't hamper my ability to produce working stuff, I just needed to have another "extra" person. The end result of the two-man team were better than my first meagre attempts at both development and design. If you do need to see stuff on the sceen in the mean time then there's print, echo, var_dump and print_r - after all, outputting formatted stuff that looks pretty is essentially done the same way only you attach markup onto it
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Well again in the real world, you'd be absolutely useless to any potential employer. It might have worked for you in school, but it won't help you in a professional environment.
So for example, let's say you went looking for a job. What would you use for a reference? The hundreds of lines of code you wrote in the background or a website address?
Ok I guess it's the latter - so who should the employer employ? Two men, the one that was able to show what he can do or the one who wrote the engine in the background... that we can't exactly see how good it really is??
On another point - how are you supposed to build a proper web solution if you don't know what the capabilities of HTML are????? How will you know what's possible to display on screen??
I think you are being very naive about this.
How can you know what can be displayed with HTML? It's just strings man, everything is just plain text with a bit of markup to format it. You make it seems that this HTML is an awkward beast and is fussy about what it receives. Everything is just plain old text. Not hard to grasp when you think about it.
So what you're looking to hire is a web developer and a web designer rolled into one then And I don't recall telling the OP that they should skip over HTML/CSS and go apply for a job when they have the Perl/PHP under their belt so I don't believe I'm naive at all. I've already explained that I know HTML/CSS & my programming language of choice and I am happily employed as a web developer/designer.
I believe my entire point was that in my opinion thedesigntribe was correct in their assumption that your starting point should depend on where you want to end up. Without going too offtopic, an "engine" programmer as you call it is a pretty valid position. It would be somewhat harder to explain during an interview, but I've never had an interviewer scoff at me when explain the complexities involved in pre/post processing data on the projects I've worked on. I can show them web addresses or live demo's and explain what happens in the background and make it clear the design wasn't my field. It's not all whizzbang, flash graphics and super slick CSS that the web industry is looking for and until you open up your own eyes I think you're the one being naive.0 -
TouchingVirus wrote: »How can you know what can be displayed with HTML? It's just strings man, everything is just plain text with a bit of markup to format it. You make it seems that this HTML is an awkward beast and is fussy about what it receives. Everything is just plain old text. Not hard to grasp when you think about it.
You're completely missing the point. Let me use a simple example.
If I to write a simple program, that creates a select menu from text I have previously inputted from a page with a few form fields, how do I firstly know how to create the initial page and then create the final display page - if I don't know any HTML????TouchingVirus wrote: »So what you're looking to hire is a web developer and a web designer rolled into one then And I don't recall telling the OP that they should skip over HTML/CSS and go apply for a job when they have the Perl/PHP under their belt so I don't believe I'm naive at all. I've already explained that I know HTML/CSS & my programming language of choice and I am happily employed as a web developer/designer.
Firstly, if I could find another designer and developer rolled into one - I would hire them in a second. That's what I was before I set up my own business. But they are a rare thing nowadays.
Secondly, the OP asked what he should learn first, I suggested he learned HTML first, because at the end of the day he would ultimately be outputting his code to HTML. You said this wasn't entirely correct. Ok, so now that you are happily employed - would you have been if you didn't know HTML?TouchingVirus wrote: »I believe my entire point was that in my opinion thedesigntribe was correct in their assumption that your starting point should depend on where you want to end up. Without going too offtopic, an "engine" programmer as you call it is a pretty valid position. It would be somewhat harder to explain during an interview, but I've never had an interviewer scoff at me when explain the complexities involved in pre/post processing data on the projects I've worked on. I can show them web addresses or live demo's and explain what happens in the background and make it clear the design wasn't my field. It's not all whizzbang, flash graphics and super slick CSS that the web industry is looking for and until you open up your own eyes I think you're the one being naive.
You can sit in interviews all day and talk about what's going on in the background - I would NEVER hire anyone on this basis without actually seeing code.
If someone came in and told me "it does all this in the background", I'd want to see actual examples.
If you were given a job on this basis, it's your employer that has been very naive.
At the end of the day -I'm sure you didn't apply or the job without knowing the basics of HTML??
Oh and...
If you go back to the OP, he said he wanted to learn how to "design websites". You can't design a website if you only know PHP.0 -
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You're completely missing the point. Let me use a simple example. If I to write a simple program, that creates a select menu from text I have previously inputted from a page with a few form fields, how do I firstly know how to create the initial page and then create the final display page - if I don't know any HTML????
Without the HTML you couldn't do such a simple task. You learn most programming languages (or most people do) by using simple things like print() to output strings to screen. Programming languages such as perl, php etc also have these output commands. HTML is not required to learn PHP and PHP is not required to learn HTML. If I asked you to write me a HTML form that when submitted will input your text into a database and you didn't know a scripting language then you would be unable to do it. Your simple example works both ways.Firstly, if I could find another designer and developer rolled into one - I would hire them in a second. That's what I was before I set up my own business. But they are a rare thing nowadays.
Secondly, the OP asked what he should learn first, I suggested he learned HTML first, because at the end of the day he would ultimately be outputting his code to HTML. You said this wasn't entirely correct. Ok, so now that you are happily employed - would you have been if you didn't know HTML?
If I didn't know HTML/CSS I doubt I would have the job I have at this time, no. But again, I'll reiterate, I didn't tell the OP to just learn programming and ditch the HTML. I said that depending on what they want to do, learning programming first is an option. I learned programming first (php, perl etc), HTML second and then CSS. and I'm now one of those people "you'd hire in an instant". While it is the less common way of learning, it still clearly works.You can sit in interviews all day and talk about what's going on in the background - I would NEVER hire anyone on this basis without actually seeing code.
If someone came in and told me "it does all this in the background", I'd want to see actual examples.
If you were given a job on this basis, it's your employer that has been very naive.
At the end of the day - I'm sure you didn't apply or the job without knowing the basics of HTML??
You're correct in that I know HTML and my employer knows this. However my employer also knows that I'm not a fantastic designer but am a pretty hardcore developer - I showed them some code from my projects and the full thing in action (with other folks design). They are quite happy to let me create the prototypes and middle-stage betas but let some freelance designer do the html/css for a highly-polished product. I would obviously work with this freelance developer to ensure they understand what the code is outputting etcIf you go back to the OP, he said he wanted to learn how to "design websites". You can't design a website if you only know PHP.
You're right, you can't design a website with only PHP. And if the OP did really mean design (as in style, layout etc) then they would be best of with HTML. If you wanted to end the disagreement by returning to the OP's question word for word then why didn't you do it at the start
TouchingVirus - you're just being pedantic. You may 'technically' be correct, but realistically the original poster would be silly not to learn the basics of HTML.
I'm not being pedantic and as I stated clearly in my previous post, at no stage did I tell the OP or anybody that they shouldn't learn the basics of HTML. I merely stated my agreement with thedesigntribe (and disagreement with tomED) in that HTML does not have to be the first thing to learn.0 -
Firstly, if I could find another designer and developer rolled into one - I would hire them in a second. That's what I was before I set up my own business. But they are a rare thing nowadays.
Where should I send my CV to ?
Funny - I ended up having the same problem and ended up setting up my own business too!!!
Didn't realise I was THAT rare !!!! :cool:0 -
Liam Byrne wrote: »Where should I send my CV to ?
Funny - I ended up having the same problem and ended up setting up my own business too!!!
Didn't realise I was THAT rare !!!! :cool:
Could someone explain to me the difference between a web designer and a web developer????0 -
TouchingVirus wrote: »Without the HTML you couldn't do such a simple task.
Which was exactly the point I made and you completely overlooked it to go on about a different approach with two people involved instead of one.TouchingVirus wrote: »You learn most programming languages (or most people do) by using simple things like print() to output strings to screen. Programming languages such as perl, php etc also have these output commands.
I wouldn't say you learn it, but you certainly need something to output the results to, with PHP it's generally a browser - what do browsers display? yes HTML.TouchingVirus wrote: »HTML is not required to learn PHP and PHP is not required to learn HTML.
No-one ever said that.TouchingVirus wrote: »If I asked you to write me a HTML form that when submitted will input your text into a database and you didn't know a scripting language then you would be unable to do it. Your simple example works both ways..
Well isn't that blatantly obvious.........TouchingVirus wrote: »You're correct in that I know HTML and my employer knows this. However my employer also knows that I'm not a fantastic designer but am a pretty hardcore developer.
You're right, you can't design a website with only PHP. And if the OP did really mean design (as in style, layout etc) then they would be best of with HTML.
Knowing HTML isn't about being a fantastic designer. The whole point of learning HTML when starting off is to know exactly what all possibilities are in terms of what your programme can potentially output.
HTML is not about design, design is another days work altogether.TouchingVirus wrote: »If you wanted to end the disagreement by returning to the OP's question word for word then why didn't you do it at the start Now I'm confused, you're the one that took it this route not me.
I was simply backing up my orinigal response that you disagreed with. as per below.....TouchingVirus wrote: »I'm not being pedantic and as I stated clearly in my previous post, at no stage did I tell the OP or anybody that they shouldn't learn the basics of HTML. I merely stated my agreement with thedesigntribe (and disagreement with tomED) in that HTML does not have to be the first thing to learn.0 -
Liam Byrne wrote: »Where should I send my CV to ?
Funny - I ended up having the same problem and ended up setting up my own business too!!!
PM me (if you are looking of course!) Always looking for someone good - especially all rounders!
Liam Byrne wrote: »Didn't realise I was THAT rare !!!! :cool:
You're obviously part of the oldskool Liam!
Kids have it so easy nowadays, to get a job they just have to have one skill, unlike the oldskool
You know, when a web designer had to know how to design and code HTML, JavaScript, Perl/CGI, PHP, ASP, SQL etc etc
Not many of us left anymore! 0 -
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Fair play to you Darragh - it's not an easy place to make money but you're on the right track with your existing contacts. This industry is really based on contacts. Most of our business comes from referrals or repeat work.
It's like any other business though, it's all about the customer, making sure they are happy. The one thing about this industry that differs a lot from others is clients expectations. Clients generally expect a "bebo" type website for next to nothing, so you really need to manage their expectations and reel them in from time to time.
Other than that - it's just hard work!
Best of luck with the new venture and feel free to contact me if you ever need any advice.0 -
Fair play to you Darragh - it's not an easy place to make money but you're on the right track with your existing contacts. This industry is really based on contacts. Most of our business comes from referrals or repeat work.
It's like any other business though, it's all about the customer, making sure they are happy. The one thing about this industry that differs a lot from others is clients expectations. Clients generally expect a "bebo" type website for next to nothing, so you really need to manage their expectations and reel them in from time to time.
Other than that - it's just hard work!
Best of luck with the new venture and feel free to contact me if you ever need any advice.
Hi Tom, I PM'd you there with a question...0 -
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