Best locks available for Ireland?

Amazotheamazing

Just following on from the Captaincy thread, what are people's opinions of the choice of locks available to Ireland, who's going to make the national squad and who to look out for?

Imo, the top two are O'Connell and O'Callaghan, though O'Connell hasn't become the world class player we hoped he would and O'Callaghan only really shows his class when O'Connell isn't playing. They aren't the perfect combination, but the stats consistently show them to be among Ireland's best tacklers, as well as both being excellent at traditional second row roles.

Next, I'd have Ryan and Caldwell, both seriously talented youngsters, Ryan has enough skills to be a flanker, and is surprisingly fast, but probably too tall to the a backrower. Still a little light to be a top level second row. Caldwell is pure aggression tied to a surprisingly skillful lineout operator, very good defensively and capable of carrying the ball into contact and retaining possession. Both are ones for the future.

Then I'd rate MOD and Cullen at around the same level, both are decent honest pro's who do a job for their provincial sides but don't have the class to dominate at International level. Would probably never let the county down, but not really going to massively impress at that level either. Although both are more experienced than Ryan and Caldwell, neither have either of the formers potential to usurp POC or DOC.

A level below that I'd rate Casey, and maybe O'Kelly (solely due to his age). Casey showed his good points and bad points in his recent recall to A duties. Great lineout operator but that's it. No hands, no huge aggression, struggles with the pace in top GP and HEC games, so unlikely to be fit or fast enough for top level Int rugby. O'Kelly is pretty much a ML player at this stage, can't last a full game at either top level HEC or Int level.

Of the rest, McCullough has been moved back into the backrow, Gannon had a poor enough season last year, Hogan was injured for last year, Toner has barely featured for Leinster, Jowitt (now Irish qualified) is a journeyman. Shane O'Connor has reputedly joined Quins, another with big potential, but not sure he has the attitude to deliver on it.

Tim Robbins

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Just following on from the Captaincy thread, what are people's opinions of the choice of locks available to Ireland, who's going to make the national squad and who to look out for?

Imo, the top two are O'Connell and O'Callaghan, though O'Connell hasn't become the world class player we hoped he would and O'Callaghan only really shows his class when O'Connell isn't playing. They aren't the perfect combination, but the stats consistently show them to be among Ireland's best tacklers, as well as both being excellent at traditional second row roles.

Next, I'd have Ryan and Caldwell, both seriously talented youngsters, Ryan has enough skills to be a flanker, and is surprisingly fast, but probably too tall to the a backrower. Still a little light to be a top level second row. Caldwell is pure aggression tied to a surprisingly skillful lineout operator, very good defensively and capable of carrying the ball into contact and retaining possession. Both are ones for the future.

Then I'd rate MOD and Cullen at around the same level, both are decent honest pro's who do a job for their provincial sides but don't have the class to dominate at International level. Would probably never let the county down, but not really going to massively impress at that level either. Although both are more experienced than Ryan and Caldwell, neither have either of the formers potential to usurp POC or DOC.

A level below that I'd rate Casey, and maybe O'Kelly (solely due to his age). Casey showed his good points and bad points in his recent recall to A duties. Great lineout operator but that's it. No hands, no huge aggression, struggles with the pace in top GP and HEC games, so unlikely to be fit or fast enough for top level Int rugby. O'Kelly is pretty much a ML player at this stage, can't last a full game at either top level HEC or Int level.

Of the rest, McCullough has been moved back into the backrow, Gannon had a poor enough season last year, Hogan was injured for last year, Toner has barely featured for Leinster, Jowitt (now Irish qualified) is a journeyman. Shane O'Connor has reputedly joined Quins, another with big potential, but not sure he has the attitude to deliver on it.

Forms dictates a lot of this. Cullen is at times better than all of them and is a very intelligent player. Leinster's lineout was all over the place until he came along and Emmet Byrne said at once Cullen anaylses lineouts very intensively so that he knows other teams strenghts, weaknesses etc.

A Leinster pack beat a Munster pack twice last season. Doubt this would have happened without Cullen.

bamboozle

i'd rate them in the following order:
POC - but he needs to stop getting isolated with the ball and rid his game of silly handling errors.
DOC - Over the last 2 seasons he's been more impressive than POC, playing to the max of his potential (he only seems to play badly against Leinster when he sees red mist!)
Cullen - No-one can argue with the impact he had on the Leinster line-out and pack, great operator, honest player.
Casey - only rating him 4th as his London Irish stats are too hard to ignore, not sure if he has the agression for international rugby but deserves a shot in autumn.
Ryan & Caldwell - these 2 are the future, ryan needs to bulk up but his hands and speed are very impressive.

Also rans; Mick O Driscoll, good line out operator, i'd blood ryan or caldwell ahead of him though,
big Mal, have always been a huge fan but didnt understand why he went on tour to new zealand during the summer, last season in the game.
Hogan - will always give 100% but will probably struggle to get Leinster game time this season behind a fully fit cullen and mal.

accensi0n

bamboozle wrote: »

i'd rate them in the following order:
POC - but he needs to stop getting isolated with the ball and rid his game of silly handling errors.
DOC - Over the last 2 seasons he's been more impressive than POC, playing to the max of his potential (he only seems to play badly against Leinster when he sees red mist!)

I don't get this?

How can you rate them in that order but say that the second one is actually better than the first?....

bamboozle

accensi0n wrote: »

I don't get this?

How can you rate them in that order but say that the second one is actually better than the first?....

sorry i never said the second is better than the first, i said doc's been more impressive which he has been given the injuries which disrupted POC for the last 2 seasons.
Ability & talent wise POC is streets ahead but has been unable to play a sustained number of games at the peak of his ability.

Stev_o

In fairness though i think people are rating this a bit wrong. Last season the best locks in the country were Cullen and DOC both had played nearly every game and each had stood out amongst the rest.

POC was out for a long time with injury and when he came back he was rusty i think its stupid that everybody suddenly rate him first even though he hasnt played as many games and standout performances such as DOC and Cullen.

I personally think Cullen should start i mean we have possibly the worst line out for a long time and we need someone who has expertises to know where it should go (POC wtf were you do calling throws at the back and the middle when it was p1ssing rain the NZ for that you should have been on the bench :mad:)

Hansel

Why do people keep saying that Ryan is lightweight? His stats on munsterrugby.ie are way out of date. Afaik, he weighs in over 110kg. That is not too light.

Amazotheamazing

Hansel wrote: »

Why do people keep saying that Ryan is lightweight? His stats on munsterrugby.ie are way out of date. Afaik, he weighs in over 110kg. That is not too light.

Somebody on Munsterfans has posted up to date figures, but still have to go with what's official.

Danger_Dave

We know absolutely everything about DOC and POC. Last season DOC reached i believe is full potential, while Paul O'Connell is only rediscovering his. POC will always have those silly handling errors around the park, its something he's gotten much better at avoiding but it still happens.

Malcolm O'kelly is past it. Great servant to leinster and Ireland and he had an Indian summer in regards to his career last year. Doubt it will continue into this season.

Leo Cullen - Its his year, If he can lead the pack like he did last year for leinster and keep fit, he will be POC partner in the Irish team.

Bob Casey- I really like his lineout work, but pointed out by Amazotheamazing he gets shown up at the highest levels.

Ryan and Cadwell will be in the team after the next world cup .

Toner he's never played enough to make a solid judgment.

Hansel

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Somebody on Munsterfans has posted up to date figures, but still have to go with what's official.

Why do you have to go with what's official? Since when has the official website been a reliable source for anything? They have him down as 89kgs. Feck sake, that would make me 4 kg's lighter than him and 8 inches shorter than him. I'm no fatty by any means, so I do believe it's impossible to way in at the official figure. One look at him will tell you he weighs much more than a meagre 14 stone.

Back on topic, I think he we'll see very little of O'Driscoll for Munster this year as Ryan will feature more. This will put Cullen on the bench behind the other two Munster locks, and he'll put serious pressure on O'Callaghan I reckon. With O'Callaghan beating him to a Lions spot the last time out (after some foolish stamping on DOC), he has even more to prove this season with the Lions coming up again.

No matter who makes it, it's great to have such strength in depth in a key position. If only we had the same problems in other positions.

kingking85

O'Connell never really showed his potential last season. He's also not a ball carrier and should be told that. He makes little impact when carrying and is more effective in the ruck area.

Leo Cullen has always been a great international lock but has not got the recognition or caps. His talent was only highlighted when he went to Leicester. He should partner O'Connell in the second row and Donncha still needs to improve although he took all the responsibility upon himself when O'Connell was out last year.

I feel that Donncha Ryan is a good provincial player but dont know if he has what it takes for international standard. He needs to bulk up but this will just take time. Trevor Hogan was unlucky last season due to injury. Mick O'Driscoll is a good grafter but has he got the international capabilities?

Amazotheamazing

kingking85 wrote: »

Mick O'Driscoll is a good grafter but has he got the international capabilities?

I would say the exact same about Cullen. Both are honest pro's but I really think both would struggle if they were continual first teamers for Ireland.

Btw, at Leicester Cullen had the odd honour of captaining them and being frequently dropped. He played in a good few A games for Leicester. I think that sums him up a bit, he's a guy you could trust to lead a team, but against top opposition, you can't trust him enough to play him.

bamboozle

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I would say the exact same about Cullen. Both are honest pro's but I really think both would struggle if they were continual first teamers for Ireland.

Btw, at Leicester Cullen had the odd honour of captaining them and being frequently dropped. He played in a good few A games for Leicester. I think that sums him up a bit, he's a guy you could trust to lead a team, but against top opposition, you can't trust him enough to play him.

in fairness to Leo he seemed to be very much responsible for a huge forward performance for leicster against Munster down in thomand. he'll always put in an honest shift and has far more to offer than MOD.

[Jackass]

bamboozle wrote: »

i'd rate them in the following order:
POC - but he needs to stop getting isolated with the ball and rid his game of silly handling errors.
DOC - Over the last 2 seasons he's been more impressive than POC, playing to the max of his potential (he only seems to play badly against Leinster when he sees red mist!)
Cullen - No-one can argue with the impact he had on the Leinster line-out and pack, great operator, honest player.
Casey - only rating him 4th as his London Irish stats are too hard to ignore, not sure if he has the agression for international rugby but deserves a shot in autumn.
Ryan & Caldwell - these 2 are the future, ryan needs to bulk up but his hands and speed are very impressive.

Also rans; Mick O Driscoll, good line out operator, i'd blood ryan or caldwell ahead of him though,
big Mal, have always been a huge fan but didnt understand why he went on tour to new zealand during the summer, last season in the game.
Hogan - will always give 100% but will probably struggle to get Leinster game time this season behind a fully fit cullen and mal.

Pretty much agree with all of that. On ability anyway.

On form I'd have:
1/ Cullen
2/DO'C
3/PO'C (having absolutley terrible form of late. When he's on form though he's our best 2nd row hands down).

I'd be interested to see who will be the 3 in Irelands 22 under Kidney, but I'd imagine it will be those 3.

RugbyFanatic

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

he's a guy you could trust to lead a team, but against top opposition, you can't trust him enough to play him.

Thats funny he seems to have no problems against Munster?

Amazotheamazing

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

Thats funny he seems to have no problems against Munster?

I don't want to go off topic, but do you measure everything by how someone does against Munster?

I'm far more concerned about how he'd manage against the best locks that NZ, SA or France can offer, not what happened in some training match in the ML.

Even for Leinster, he was so-so in the HEC, he might shine at ML level, but not every player can step up.

I'd level the same criticisms at MOD, neither player has that extra % than POC or DOC have, or that I think Ryan or Caldwell may have.

It's very hard to argue with someone who goes suchandsuch a player is less talented but is in better form. Better form counts for nothing if even your top level game isn't good enough for the top Int level. Dowling was one of the form wings last year, but I doubt anyone thinks he's a much better option than an out of form Horgan, for example.

RuggieBear

yawn