the glorious 12 th

jwshooter

i shot a few grouse over the years ,the last few last year on managed ground by the way .with the weather the way its going and low numbers i would think only under licence should they be shot .ie proven management they can be reared so why do we not do so .i am living under the blackstairs no grouse the last grouse i seen on the blackstairs must have been 20 years ago and i would be on the mountain once a week ,mt lenister no grouse regardless of what wexford nargc say ,il go to the hill with any of them in the morning to prove me wrong and they have a grouse project going on this ten years where is the money going ,as hunters i think we thats all of us have a obligation to our wildlife .i would not want to go to my grave thinking the red grouse were no more on irish mountains ,i was stalking last feb and my gwp pup went on point i stopped and let her hold the point as she wished thinking a wood cock or a hare after a minute a grouse broke not ten feet from me and another just behind it ,go back ,go back ,go back ,perfect . the wildlife of today is not ours to dispose of as we please .we have it in trust .we must account for it to those who come after .king george vl

Da Frog

Well said. totally agree about licence shooting for Grouse. I heard about to many bad behaviours on grouse shooting in the killaloe region. This is too precious to be spoiled by the first hot trigger coming up the mountain...

Vegeta

Da Frog wrote: »

Well said. totally agree about licence shooting for Grouse. I heard about to many bad behaviours on grouse shooting in the killaloe region. This is too precious to be spoiled by the first hot trigger coming up the mountain...

Well the area doesn't have the habitat to support them to start with. Sure there's bog and heather but the quality of heather there is absolute sh1te. Its too tall and not enough of it blooms properly. Its all brown dead crap and just not suitable to supporting a decent grouse population

Also the gun club is tiny (35 members) and to my knowledge no one shoots grouse. My family have hunted here all our lives (My dad, my brother and I) and none of us have ever shot one, neither have any of our friends in the club. In fact I cant think of anyone off the top of my head who has. So I think its unfair to say the behaviour is bad when no one even bothers to hunt them.

Saying all that this year I have seen more than I ever have in all my years out, a grand total of 2.There is also a hill near one of our permissions which seems to be covered in perfect heather. It all looks like short heather, the hill looks purple compared to the crap everywhere else. Its quite remote though i.e. no direct road access so we have never walked it with the dogs (without guns). That could be crawling in them for all I know.

I don't think there's an easy solution to it though. Stop shooting them, well I cant speak for everyone in the club but I cant think of anyone who does. So what else can we do? Serious question, what do people suggest doing to increase the number of grouse?

neilsbreak

Slieve Aughties, not far from Killaloe has had pig ignorant hunters landing every september from far afield treating it as their own grouse moor for years. These lads don't be seen for the rest of the year. They must be seeing the decline in numbers over the years and still they come! They are not young lads out for a shot that don't know any better either.

The local club do vermin control all year round and have tried even to set the mountain as a sanctuary to try and let birds recover although its a commonage so proving impossible and the blow-ins know this, 'nobodys gonna stop me shooting' (except when theres nothing left to shoot numnuts). Situation is not helped by spring and summer burning for grazing either. Theres something about being on the mountain and flushing gouse or hearing curlew thats very special, won't be seeing grouse here in the near future though! They have obviously no shame and will be the first to start bleating WHEN grouse have to be taken off the list. Very frustrating!

I would think that habitat destruction (mainly forestry and mostly uneconomical forestry) and predation have been responsible for declines in grouse over the years. Get that right and you'd be a long way towards halting the declines in my opinion. Government Grants? More collective responsibility? Would hate to see grouse having to be re-introduced under captive breeding programmes in the future. It would be a sign that we failed to conserve a bird thats been on the hills for thousands of years. Then again, it would be better than nothing I suppose. Depressing.

Off topic, speaking of curlew, what do ye think of curlew being on the list? Personally, I would nearly have nightmares if I shot one. What type of shooting is it? Flighting, walked up????

J.R.

I've often had the opportunity, at home, to shoot Curlew but never took it - usually when duck shooting along the shore, or often they came inland in bad gales - wouldn't shoot them unless I was going to eat it.

I used to love to hear their call when duck hunting - it's a real call of the wild!

When in my native Kerry, one of the lads in the gun club used to shoot them -claimed they made fabulous soup - none of the others begrudged him it as he was going to eat it & only took 5 - 6 a year.

Vegeta

neilsbreak wrote: »

Slieve Aughties, not far from Killaloe

I agree they are not far from Killaloe but in the interest of fairness they are way way outside the Ballina/Killaloe gun club.

bernagh and arra are the local ones as far as I know. Arra looks awful for it, lots of heather but very little of it could be used as food and the number of raptors there is also a problem. Did see two there this summer though

Bernagh has quite a few spots that look better, young, in bloom heather. Never hunted this land (its just too remote, no road access at all) but we're going to walk it in a few weeks time for signs of deer and see can we flush a grouse. You don't have to shoot a bird to enjoy it

neilsbreak

Sorry never even meant to associate your area with whats going on across the lake, saw the thread and got some stuff off my chest cos it rots me sh1te annually. Heard there was a load of reds escaped or let off from a deer farm down that way. Did they ever breed or take hold?

Grizzly 45

Why d ya think Grouse shooting is now only sucessful and economically viable in Scotland??The moors are keeperd and private property of somone!Compared to over here where it is commonage or "ahh shure dem grouse is fine ,and lookafter themselves" attitude.
As pointed out the grouse need proper managed heather,that has to be burned properly,[which then clashes with the wildlife act on burning gorse and scrub].You need a team of game keepers to know and look after the moor that isin private hands.That is our big problem here,when the big estates were broken up,pre war of independance and post land leauge we lost as well Irish game keepring as a way of life,any sort of game management programmes that could bew worked 24/7/365.Vast tracts of land became badly managed,or commonage where no one was really sure who held what rights to what.Hence the game,properties and amenites fell into ruin.The only way we would get grouse back to any level of recognition is IMO somone would have to buy a huge tract of moor and declare it off limits and start a strong breeding programme of grouse that would spill over into neighbouring areas.
So unless we know somone who is [a]a totally eccentric millionare is a great grouse hunter [c] isnt an anti like Sir "Macca "Mac Cartny [d] wants to raise nothing else but grouse and sheep,[not much else to be raised on a moor] [e] The weather turns back to somthing normal which allows the chicks to survive without dying of exposure thru heavy rains.I hate to say Grouse hunting Ireland will become a thing of the past.:(

Double Barrel

"go bak, go bak, go bak."

Habitat.
Grouse are not reared and released for shooting.

Red Grouse numbers = good sustainable habitat management practices. Control Predation. Control Disease. Use good farming practice on the hills and moors, light grazing, predator and disease control. The farmers I know have always provided habitat for red grouse and recognise that farming this habitat is good for the conservation of the bird. Controlled burning of overgrown woody heather is an integral part of proper habitat management. The problem being that getting a burn permit is near impossible.

"Management also includes burning which is one of the oldest and most useful land management tools. However, it needs to be used with skill and understanding if it is not to do more harm than good. Heather hillsides or moorland are usually burned in narrow stripes to rejuvenate strong heather. Burning gets rid of woody stems, converting them to nutrients. More palatable young heather re-grows, which suits sheep, grouse and other wildlife.
If heather remains very dense and tall for long periods, other peatland flora and fauna can be reduced or eliminated. However, if carried out too often or if fires are too hot, burning can kill off shoots and seeds and burn the peat itself, leading to poor regeneration. Fires can be too hot due to wind, hot weather or if there is too much woody material. In Scotland it is recommended to burn when heather is higher than twenty centimetres. It should not be let grow more than thirty centimetres, if planning to burn. This could mean a rotation of ten years or up to twenty years, where heather growth is poor. Burning is bad for certain vegetation, such as bog mosses. Raised or blanket bogs on peat over 0.5 metre in depth should not be burned. Other unsuitable areas are where the soil is eroding, where there is thin soil or exposed peat. In these cases soil may be consumed by the fire, erosion follows and re-growth is poor. Fires must not be allowed to spread into woodland or scrub. Sites traditionally used for nesting by legally protected birds of prey must be avoided. Heather burning is carried out on a number of small areas rather than one large area, giving a patchwork pattern. This creates a mosaic of different aged heather stands on the hill which suits grouse. The width of an individual fire does not exceed fifty metres. This planned programme of burning carried out properly benefits grouse, deer and sheep grazing. It is an option under Scottish agri-environment schemes. The shortening of the burning season in Ireland under the Wildlife (Amendment Act) 2000 - now from September 1st to March 31st has reduced burning opportunities."

Local game clubs in Wicklow undertook active habitat management from 1966-76, burning heather in stripes, doing individual bird counts in late March and early April and counting coveys in late July. Counts using pointer or setter dogs worked well as did listening to cocks calling at dawn. 1992 was the last.

Overgrazing is being addressed under the Commonage Framework Plans and vegetation will recover in time. The Irish Farmers Association would support the inclusion of management options for red grouse in REPS. The project is also supported by the Landowners Alliance. Bórd na Mona are interested in the results of the survey for lands owned by them. Coillte who are also involved in the steering group presently have ongoing joint grouse projects.

http://www.ipcc.ie/inforedgrouse.html

jwshooter

Double Barrel wrote: »

"go bak, go bak, go bak."

Habitat.
Grouse are not reared and released for shooting.

Red Grouse numbers = good sustainable habitat management practices. Control Predation. Control Disease. Use good farming practice on the hills and moors, light grazing, predator and disease control. The farmers I know have always provided habitat for red grouse and recognise that farming this habitat is good for the conservation of the bird. Controlled burning of overgrown woody heather is an integral part of proper habitat management. The problem being that getting a burn permit is near impossible.

"Management also includes burning which is one of the oldest and most useful land management tools. However, it needs to be used with skill and understanding if it is not to do more harm than good. Heather hillsides or moorland are usually burned in narrow stripes to rejuvenate strong heather. Burning gets rid of woody stems, converting them to nutrients. More palatable young heather re-grows, which suits sheep, grouse and other wildlife.
If heather remains very dense and tall for long periods, other peatland flora and fauna can be reduced or eliminated. However, if carried out too often or if fires are too hot, burning can kill off shoots and seeds and burn the peat itself, leading to poor regeneration. Fires can be too hot due to wind, hot weather or if there is too much woody material. In Scotland it is recommended to burn when heather is higher than twenty centimetres. It should not be let grow more than thirty centimetres, if planning to burn. This could mean a rotation of ten years or up to twenty years, where heather growth is poor. Burning is bad for certain vegetation, such as bog mosses. Raised or blanket bogs on peat over 0.5 metre in depth should not be burned. Other unsuitable areas are where the soil is eroding, where there is thin soil or exposed peat. In these cases soil may be consumed by the fire, erosion follows and re-growth is poor. Fires must not be allowed to spread into woodland or scrub. Sites traditionally used for nesting by legally protected birds of prey must be avoided. Heather burning is carried out on a number of small areas rather than one large area, giving a patchwork pattern. This creates a mosaic of different aged heather stands on the hill which suits grouse. The width of an individual fire does not exceed fifty metres. This planned programme of burning carried out properly benefits grouse, deer and sheep grazing. It is an option under Scottish agri-environment schemes. The shortening of the burning season in Ireland under the Wildlife (Amendment Act) 2000 - now from September 1st to March 31st has reduced burning opportunities."

Local game clubs in Wicklow undertook active habitat management from 1966-76, burning heather in stripes, doing individual bird counts in late March and early April and counting coveys in late July. Counts using pointer or setter dogs worked well as did listening to cocks calling at dawn. 1992 was the last.

Overgrazing is being addressed under the Commonage Framework Plans and vegetation will recover in time. The Irish Farmers Association would support the inclusion of management options for red grouse in REPS. The project is also supported by the Landowners Alliance. Bórd na Mona are interested in the results of the survey for lands owned by them. Coillte who are also involved in the steering group presently have ongoing joint grouse projects.

http://www.ipcc.ie/inforedgrouse.html

red grouse are been reared and been released they have a heather based pellet to feed them

Vegeta

Double Barrel wrote: »

"go bak, go bak, go bak."

Habitat.
Grouse are not reared and released for shooting.

Red Grouse numbers = good sustainable habitat management practices. Control Predation. Control Disease. Use good farming practice on the hills and moors, light grazing, predator and disease control. The farmers I know have always provided habitat for red grouse and recognise that farming this habitat is good for the conservation of the bird. Controlled burning of overgrown woody heather is an integral part of proper habitat management. The problem being that getting a burn permit is near impossible.

On the top of the mountain/hill across the river from me the majority of heather is thigh high with some of it being over the waist and up to the chest.

No one does any sort of management there, I suppose the skills are just lost to us especially controlled burning, have never seen it done.

Double Barrel

JW,
Have used the pellets in the past.
Did not know that large numbers of wild birds were being successfully bred in a controlled captive environment. Who is doing such work?

Double Barrel

Vegeta

The farmers would burn the hills in the winter months and the bogs when they went to cut turf, not usually controlled to any great extent as they relied on the climate for the "odd shower".
I tripped over more heather as a young lad trying to keep up to my father and a few setters and never remember heather that tall, they kept it in check. Better for the birds and the animals.

I don't think it is lost to us, the Brits & Scots have a very comphresive, active, working system.

Out of curiosity do you know Sean Kierse?

Vegeta

Double Barrel wrote: »

Out of curiosity do you know Sean Kierse?

Yup and his two suns.

Bought a springer pup from his son and it was one of the best dogs we ever had.

When I said lost to us I suppose I meant me and the club. The hills catch fire the odd time as they do but generally its in the summer which is not good for young birds I suspect.

Wolfhillbilly

I've only ever shot grouse in Scotland (once) over setters and it is the best shooting there is. I run my two setters in field trials, mostly in the North, and the debate in this thread is pretty much like listening to the conversation over lunch at a trial.
I pick up a lot of what 'old-timers' are saying and from listening to them, restoring grouse population isn't that easy. It seems (and most of what I hear refers to northern moors) that a lot of agencies have to be involved if there is to be any serious attempt made to build up a sustainable grouse population - agencies like Envronment and Heritage Service, Regional Development, Dept of Agriculture, RSPB, landowners... the list goes on, and every one has their own priorities that they are going to ensure get looked after. This is especially true when 'government' own some or part of the moor.
I read article about a project in Sligo (I think) that is rearing grouse successfully and have also read about one in the North of England that built up a virtually 'dead' moor into a 100 bird a day moor in about 10 years. That article was in the Shooting Times. One thing that sticks out from that article was that the moor owner went up the mountain every day and cut heather shoots to feed the birds in the pens. It sounds like hard work but it proves, as does the Sligo project, that it can be done.
There is also someone in NUI Galway who is carrying out research, which means that there must be some funded work going on. He asked ISD readers a while back to send him feathers of grouse so he could track DNA.
I believe an issue when the North's Evironment Agency was asked about bringing in birds from Scotland was that the Scottish grouse (Lagopus lagopus scoticus) is a separate breed to the Irish (Lagopus lagopus hibernicus) and they wanted to ensure the surivial of the Irish species.
However I have heard anecdotally that people have brought birds over from Scotland on an ad hoc basis for years. I train my dogs on the Black Mountain outside Belfast. Some idiot shot two pair on the mountain about five or six years ago. Since then i have only seen one cock bird. My dad told me years ago that he took 20 birds off it one August 12. Others tell me that the population was only being kept alive in recent years by some setter man who brought birds back from Scotland every few years.
Anyway, that being the case, it is likely that the 'hibernicus' breed no longer exists in many parts of the North.
People like Dan Kinney in North Antrim have been fighting a battle for years to keep the grouse alive in the Glens. I believe he has mentioned birds getting brought over from Scotland in some of his articles in the Belfast News Letter. Albert Titterington, publisher of the Irish Country Sports and Country Life magazine said in an editorial about a year ago that it was going to be a major drive of the magazine to save the red grouse. I haven't seen anything in relation to it since.
There is a bit of hope in the form of the North Antrim grouse project which now has a full-time gamekeeper, for the next five years. It will be interesting to see how successful this project is.
The rest of the mountains I have trialed on in the North wouldn't fill you with hope. I haven't been trailing that long but the most I have seen in any one day is about eight grouse. That is with maybe 15 brace of dogs running 15 minutes each. The heather is often too long and of poor quality. Murley Mountain in Tyrone has a few grouse on it. There is a keeper thare who looks after the pheasant shoots on the greater part of the estate. The mountain is basically left to its own devices. The interest isn't there to burn heather and his priority is the pheasant shoots which I assume is the case for a lot of keepers and small shoots.
A solution is hard to find especially when the 'landowners' are basically the government for large swathes of moorland and mountain. Smaller landowners would need to be serious shooters if they were to put the time, effort and financial resources into making their land a viable grouse shoot, and most aren't.
And where there are government agencies who own land, they are bound by other laws and guidelines in relation to impact on other species, impact on habitat etc.
Getting sindicates together to manage non-government land is the most realistic possibilty in my opinion. They could be built up in the manner described in the ST aricle I mentioned earlier, but even then the expertise in terms of moorland management would have to come from someone.
Some of my family own small hill farms in the Sperrins in Tyrone and Derry. Talking hypothetically, say I was able to secure the shooting rights of 1000 acres of the Sperrin Mountains. If a sindicate was formed who were interested enough to burn heather, carry out a predator control programme, bring in birds from Scotland etc etc maybe in 10 years' time you might just have a moor that was capable of supporting a few days' shooting a year. I don't know how realistic or idealistic this is, but I believe that the survival of the red grosue as a species lies in the hands of shooters. I don't believe anyone else has the interest to do what is necessary.

jwshooter

Wolfhillbilly wrote: »

I've only ever shot grouse in Scotland (once) over setters and it is the best shooting there is. I run my two setters in field trials, mostly in the North, and the debate in this thread is pretty much like listening to the conversation over lunch at a trial.
I pick up a lot of what 'old-timers' are saying and from listening to them, restoring grouse population isn't that easy. It seems (and most of what I hear refers to northern moors) that a lot of agencies have to be involved if there is to be any serious attempt made to build up a sustainable grouse population - agencies like Envronment and Heritage Service, Regional Development, Dept of Agriculture, RSPB, landowners... the list goes on, and every one has their own priorities that they are going to ensure get looked after. This is especially true when 'government' own some or part of the moor.
I read article about a project in Sligo (I think) that is rearing grouse successfully and have also read about one in the North of England that built up a virtually 'dead' moor into a 100 bird a day moor in about 10 years. That article was in the Shooting Times. One thing that sticks out from that article was that the moor owner went up the mountain every day and cut heather shoots to feed the birds in the pens. It sounds like hard work but it proves, as does the Sligo project, that it can be done.
There is also someone in NUI Galway who is carrying out research, which means that there must be some funded work going on. He asked ISD readers a while back to send him feathers of grouse so he could track DNA.
I believe an issue when the North's Evironment Agency was asked about bringing in birds from Scotland was that the Scottish grouse (Lagopus lagopus scoticus) is a separate breed to the Irish (Lagopus lagopus hibernicus) and they wanted to ensure the surivial of the Irish species.
However I have heard anecdotally that people have brought birds over from Scotland on an ad hoc basis for years. I train my dogs on the Black Mountain outside Belfast. Some idiot shot two pair on the mountain about five or six years ago. Since then i have only seen one cock bird. My dad told me years ago that he took 20 birds off it one August 12. Others tell me that the population was only being kept alive in recent years by some setter man who brought birds back from Scotland every few years.
Anyway, that being the case, it is likely that the 'hibernicus' breed no longer exists in many parts of the North.
People like Dan Kinney in North Antrim have been fighting a battle for years to keep the grouse alive in the Glens. I believe he has mentioned birds getting brought over from Scotland in some of his articles in the Belfast News Letter. Albert Titterington, publisher of the Irish Country Sports and Country Life magazine said in an editorial about a year ago that it was going to be a major drive of the magazine to save the red grouse. I haven't seen anything in relation to it since.
There is a bit of hope in the form of the North Antrim grouse project which now has a full-time gamekeeper, for the next five years. It will be interesting to see how successful this project is.
The rest of the mountains I have trialed on in the North wouldn't fill you with hope. I haven't been trailing that long but the most I have seen in any one day is about eight grouse. That is with maybe 15 brace of dogs running 15 minutes each. The heather is often too long and of poor quality. Murley Mountain in Tyrone has a few grouse on it. There is a keeper thare who looks after the pheasant shoots on the greater part of the estate. The mountain is basically left to its own devices. The interest isn't there to burn heather and his priority is the pheasant shoots which I assume is the case for a lot of keepers and small shoots.
A solution is hard to find especially when the 'landowners' are basically the government for large swathes of moorland and mountain. Smaller landowners would need to be serious shooters if they were to put the time, effort and financial resources into making their land a viable grouse shoot, and most aren't.
And where there are government agencies who own land, they are bound by other laws and guidelines in relation to impact on other species, impact on habitat etc.
Getting sindicates together to manage non-government land is the most realistic possibilty in my opinion. They could be built up in the manner described in the ST aricle I mentioned earlier, but even then the expertise in terms of moorland management would have to come from someone.
Some of my family own small hill farms in the Sperrins in Tyrone and Derry. Talking hypothetically, say I was able to secure the shooting rights of 1000 acres of the Sperrin Mountains. If a sindicate was formed who were interested enough to burn heather, carry out a predator control programme, bring in birds from Scotland etc etc maybe in 10 years' time you might just have a moor that was capable of supporting a few days' shooting a year. I don't know how realistic or idealistic this is, but I believe that the survival of the red grosue as a species lies in the hands of shooters. I don't believe anyone else has the interest to do what is necessary.

very well writen

John Griffin

Grouse should not be shot in Ireland except where they are being properly managed. Is it any wonder that the biggest populations of grouse in the country are in the Wicklow Mountains National Park and the Slieve Blooms nature reserve, both areas have no grouse shooting. It is too easy to shoot out the breeding populations on mountains that are unmanaged and a free for all.
Grouse shooting is about creating a habitat that produces a surplus of Grouse that can be harvested by guns. If you do not manage you do not have a surplus. Grouse will not go extinct due to lack of management, they will just survive in smaller numbers as they did when the country was covered in oak and pine forests for thousands of years, living at the edges in low densities. But they can be easily wiped out by greedy guns, overgrazing and afforestation.
I think that bringing in birds from Scotland and releasing them for shooting should be stopped until research has concluded that we have or have not got our own distinct species of Grouse (L.l.hibernicus). If we have our own distinct species then we should be repopulating from Irish stock. There are two possible donor sites available as mentioned above, with healthy populations, provided they haven't been contaminated with foreign stock in the past.

The future of grouse outside of National Parks and Nature reserves is bleak unless action is taken in the next 10 years. And it is up to the shooters and the field trailing community who are a wealth of knowledge and dedication to determine the outcome.
I often wonder what the reaction would be if NPWS decided not to give grouse an open season. And when will there be too few grouse left to justify an open season. If the population is in a steady decline, how are we shooting the surplus.
I've heard hunters come out with statements like last year we only saw 12 grouse on that hill and we only got 4 and this year we only saw 5 and got 2. When do they realize that they are part of the problem and that the next year they may not see any grouse if somebody else came up after them and shot the last pair. Thats the Irish way i suppose and that why Scotland have loads of grouse, they manage and control their shooting.

jwshooter

John Griffin wrote: »

Grouse should not be shot in Ireland except where they are being properly managed. Is it any wonder that the biggest populations of grouse in the country are in the Wicklow Mountains National Park and the Slieve Blooms nature reserve, both areas have no grouse shooting. It is too easy to shoot out the breeding populations on mountains that are unmanaged and a free for all.
Grouse shooting is about creating a habitat that produces a surplus of Grouse that can be harvested by guns. If you do not manage you do not have a surplus. Grouse will not go extinct due to lack of management, they will just survive in smaller numbers as they did when the country was covered in oak and pine forests for thousands of years, living at the edges in low densities. But they can be easily wiped out by greedy guns, overgrazing and afforestation.
I think that bringing in birds from Scotland and releasing them for shooting should be stopped until research has concluded that we have or have not got our own distinct species of Grouse (L.l.hibernicus). If we have our own distinct species then we should be repopulating from Irish stock. There are two possible donor sites available as mentioned above, with healthy populations, provided they haven't been contaminated with foreign stock in the past.

The future of grouse outside of National Parks and Nature reserves is bleak unless action is taken in the next 10 years. And it is up to the shooters and the field trailing community who are a wealth of knowledge and dedication to determine the outcome.
I often wonder what the reaction would be if NPWS decided not to give grouse an open season. And when will there be too few grouse left to justify an open season. If the population is in a steady decline, how are we shooting the surplus.
I've heard hunters come out with statements like last year we only saw 12 grouse on that hill and we only got 4 and this year we only saw 5 and got 2. When do they realize that they are part of the problem and that the next year they may not see any grouse if somebody else came up after them and shot the last pair. Thats the Irish way i suppose and that why Scotland have loads of grouse, they manage and control their shooting.

+1 john it is noting to see 10 or more grouse on most of the ground that we stalk ,and thats down to sound management i think a full time keeper s is the key to there survival .the gpa im in has a large part of the blackstairs , i would think im the only one that walks it ,early this summer i counted 60 grey crows in a flock what nesting bird would have a chance .i would have no problem bringing new stocks of grouse onto a hill where the population has died out or shot out .how many lads will turn up on there hunting grounds sep first after not setting foot on it from the close of the season .if the hunting bodys would stop bickering with each other and sit down and form a management plan , till then i would like to see grouse shot under permit only after all what right do we have to shoot some thing that could be extinct and is extinct on many of our hill

terminator2

last year i went to scotland shooting grouse and it cost me the guts of £1200 . Now imagine if that type of money was bieng paid by every shooter coming into this country to shoot grouse.

Double Barrel

Well done JohnG, hillbilly, jws ,G45 et al, one of the the most informed conversations on this subject in quite some time.

We are shooting the the breeding stock, the seed.
I would support a moratorium,Full time gamekeepers and the wherewith-all to accomplish a return to a viable population as hopefully would many others. Most with an interest realise this will be a though slog, but a necessary one.
I will scratch the coppers together somehow for a pilgrimage to Scotia/Alba in the meantime.

A comphresive study on the status of Red Grouse in N. I.

http://www.ni-environment.gov.uk/red_grouse_survey_04.pdf

Double Barrel

Vegeta wrote: »

Bought a springer pup from his son and it was one of the best dogs we ever had.

Vegeta,

If I remember correctly Sean has always had good springer's, but it has being quite some time since we last chatted.
When you look across the river are you seeing Tonn Toinne?

Vegeta

Double Barrel wrote: »

When you look across the river are you seeing Tonn Toinne?

Yup.

Its directly across the river from me. Walking that this summer I did see 2 grouse and was very surprised to see them.

Some very good posts above

Country Man

A lot said here indeed. Much of it makes sense too.

Could it simply be that in Ireland we own the land, the people I mean -whereas in GB most of the land is owned by a few people and access is therefore limited. This being the case, it is in their vested interest to manage their land as a huge block as a sporting and financial resource?

Here in Ireland the red grouse used to be as common as the fleas on the back of a shaggy dog.

Alas someone shampooed the dog!

CM

PS Did I mention sheep farming??

marlin vs

The're still there, you just have to put more work into it, I walked for about seven hours today and met about twenty and only one was shot by my comrade, I didn't get a shot we were working two setters, and places we used to go had sighns saying, don't go shooting , so what are the youth supposed to do, stand on the corner and smoke dope or pop pills.I'd rather see the youngsters follow a dog.

It wasn't me!

No grouse shooting doesn't mean no shooting at all. If someone doesn't want others shooting a stock of grouse they're trying to manage and encourage, that's fair enough to my mind. Not like there aren't other things to be shooting now anyway.

jwshooter

After the last two summers having been wash outs,This year so far no young grouse have been seen in wicklow by any one i have talked to ..Action has to be taken now to protect them .there is more birds of prey in wicklow than ever before some arrived in vans just what a our poor grouse what .the red grouse might not be as high profile as a red kite ,hen harrier or falcon s but i know the one i want to see when im stalking this season

DR6.5

Was talking to two lads who were shooting a hill in the Dublin mountains
over the weekend and between four guns they put up approximately 40 grouse, with a good number of young birds. Over the last month i have seen quite a numer of young birds on different hills in wicklow the biggest covey that i saw was a covey of ten birds. From talking to a number of people they have had a similar experience while counting over the last month or two.

marlin vs

Iv'e been speaking to some of my friend's about the grouse population and they all have good words on the grouse this year, good enough on the Comeraghs, and very good on the knockmealdowns, so even though it's after been very wet it's turned out good.