Kildare Route Project - Station layout question

darkman2

What will be the new station layouts? - i.e will there be a platform in the middle as well as two at the sides? Is it two extra tracks or just one? Does every station and bridge have to be rebuilt?

murphaph

darkman2 wrote: »

will there be a platform in the middle as well as two at the sides?

Yes.

darkman2 wrote: »

Is it two extra tracks or just one?

Two.

darkman2 wrote: »

Does every station and bridge have to be rebuilt?

Every bridge anyway. The stations are being heavily modified obviously.

Victor

Eash station from Hazelhatch in to Heuston will have 4-5 platforms - two island platforms for local services and two lateral platforms for express services. the fifth platform in some stations is for turn-backs for when the DART is extended.

There will be four tracks from just west of Hazelhatch to east of the existing now-closed Cherry Orchard station. They haven't publicised what is happeneing east of this point. All of the extra trackwork is on the northside of the existing railway to minimise disruption.

Most stations and most bridges are affected. Some bridges already had adequate spans, e.g. the M50 and Parkwest Avenue. Some stations have radical work on one platform, but only extension on the other.

darkman2

Thanks! Why have they not publicised yet whats happening East of Hazelhatch?


Is the whole length of track effected by the upgrade now under construction?


And, finally, bare with me - Is it likely to be all finished on schedule do you think? and when is that?

Victor

darkman2 wrote: »

Thanks! Why have they not publicised yet whats happening East of Hazelhatch?

Do you mean West of Hazelhatch or East of Cherry Orchard?

West of Hazelhatch: more four-tracking as far as Kildare
East of Cherry Orchard: there might be news on this at the Interconnector presentation today. Probably four-tracking as far as the tunnel portal. Note there is a 3-track section from Inchicore to Heuston.

Is the whole length of track effected by the upgrade now under construction?

They are working on several separate sections. I think most stations are nearly ready.

And, finally, bare with me - Is it likely to be all finished on schedule do you think? and when is that?

I think it is meant to be finished in 2010 and I don't see any hauge problems in that. They might even finish next year, but commissioning everything might be another matter. I imagine they might want to relay the old track aswell.

dowlingm

there was talk that heights on the KRP/interconnector would support bilevel trains but that seems to have gone quiet - anyone in the know?

fitzyshea

Victor wrote: »

Do you mean West of Hazelhatch or East of Cherry Orchard?

West of Hazelhatch: more four-tracking as far as Kildare
East of Cherry Orchard: there might be news on this at the Interconnector presentation today. Probably four-tracking as far as the tunnel portal. Note there is a 3-track section from Inchicore to Heuston.

I didnt think they were going all the way to Kildare?? Thought it was Hazelhatch only?

Pineapple stu

correct,
First commissioning will be around july/august next year with it all being finished around the same time in 2010.

Victor

fitzyshea wrote: »

I didnt think they were going all the way to Kildare?? Thought it was Hazelhatch only?

yes, Irish rail were told to cut back on the project.

I went along to the Interconnector presentation - Cherry Orchard to inchicore may be done as a separate project to the Interconnector.

Sponge Bob

Victor wrote: »

West of Hazelhatch: more four-tracking as far as Kildare

That was the original plan but it was cut back to about 1km west of Hazelhatch . This is the western end of the Kildare Route Project and is not being extended when the Interconnector is done. I am , as ever, bewildered about the eastern bit !

Victor wrote: »

East of Cherry Orchard: there might be news on this at the Interconnector presentation today. Probably four-tracking as far as the tunnel portal. Note there is a 3-track section from Inchicore to Heuston.

LOL The Great Missing Link of Dublin.

Victor wrote: »

I think it is meant to be finished in 2010 and I don't see any huge problems in that. They might even finish next year, but commissioning everything might be another matter. I imagine they might want to relay the old track aswell.

They are doing really well from west of Hazelhatch to just east of Cherry Orchard where the work stops dead.

The track is then twin for about 1km or 1,2km from east of Cherry Orchard to Inchicore and tripled from Inchicore to Heuston .

From Kylemore Road to le Fanu Road to be precise and will still have the old signalling system as that link mentions. The commentator goes further .

The two track bottleneck that will remain between Kylemore Road (end of three tracks from Heuston Station) and Le Fanu Road (start of the 4 track layout). Why would you leave such a problem?

The cynic would argue that an inefficiency has been setup in order to justify Irish Rail's pet project, the Interconnecter Tunnel. This is a twin height tunnel to connect the Cork line to Pearse Station via Heuston Station and Stephen's Green. It is a celtic tiger project, i.e., if proposed 5 years ago, chances are it would have succeeded. Now it is a multi billion euro hole in the ground that ignores the new financial reality of the Republic of Ireland and conveniently ignores the existing disused lines from Islandbridge Junction (outside Heuston Station) to Glasnevin Junction (on the Maynooth Line) and from Glasnevin Junction to Connolly Station and the North Wall.

Whilst the two projects are officialy separate, the EIS for the Kildare Route Project has a starting distance point of 7.3km at Le Fanu Road. On its own, this makes no sense.

Any reasonable person would start the distance at 0km. To test my theory, I took my GPS receiver and took 4 readings. These were:
Le Fanu Road overbridge Heuston Station Stephens Green Pearse Station

Lo and behold, by using basic mapping software to 'join the dots', the straight line distance between these points comes within 100m of 7.3km. On this basis, it is not unreasonable to link the two and see what Irish Rail are doing as a crude mechanism to demand additional investment.

Yet when Martin Cullens signed the railway order 2 years ago on this very day !

"Date: 13 August 2006 Today (Sunday 13th August, 2006) Transport Minister, Martin Cullen, T.D. announced that he has decided to grant a Railway Order in respect of the Kildare Route project. The Railway Order will allow Iarnrod Eireann to proceed with the land acquisition and construction of new tracks and stations along the route between Hazelhatch and Heuston station."

While I can see the section now being worked on being completed by 2009 and delivering some benefits thereafter I CANNOT see how the remaining section, much of it in a 7-10m cutting east of Inchicore, can be quadded honestly .

It had better be quadded to the tunnel entrance if the Interconnector ever goes ahead but the disruption will be ferocious owing to the lack of space.

Some sizeable bridges in Kilmainham need rebuilding although not the N4 one thank God.

IE , in their fact sheet say

This will be achieved through increasing the number of tracks from two to four along the route from Cherry Orchard to the 10.5 milepost west of Hazelhatch, providing two dedicated lines for commuter services and two dedicated lines for Intercity and regional services.

For the life of me I cannot understand how the 8 miles of line ... , will cost over €350m ( est €380m-400m) either , thats :eek: €50m a mile :eek: and of course its all relatively worthless until the other 2.5 odd miles is complete.

That of course will cost way over €50m a mile just for the overground bit.

As a standalone investment and in the absence of the interconnector this project will still not have trains running to Galway in 2 and a half hours much less two.

If the MIUs are finished by 2010 and the interconnector has not been funded by then this 'missing link' could turn out to be the most costly mistake IE ever made . It will be feasible to drive Galway - Heuston in 2 hours most of the time while the train will take 2 and a half as it shares the bottleneck east of Cherry Orchard .

and then there is the Arrow issue and the 2700 issue

<sigh>

And will Cork get its 2 hour train journey as promised at the end of the Kildare Route Project , I know Galway won't ?? This 2 Hour Train is surely not being held hostage to the Interconnector being completed ???

Wait till the comptroller and auditor general crunches this one

Dkettle

"Wait till the comptroller and auditor general crunches this one "

If he ever finds his laptop - now that's an office with a serious credibility deficit!

Pineapple stu

The tunnel enterence will be at cherry orchard, so it will be quadded as you say up to the tunnel enterence,

KC61

cymro wrote: »

The tunnel enterence will be at cherry orchard, so it will be quadded as you say up to the tunnel enterence,

I would suggest you take a look at the interconnector plans either at the public consultations or online.

The tunnel entrance is planned to be in the old Heuston Goods Yard, and not at Cherry Orchard.

At the Institute of Engineers presentation earlier this year, it was intimated that the 4-tracking would have to be extended from Cherry Orchard to Heuston, with major embankment works required along the "Gullet" between Heuston and Inchicore, when the Interconnector was being built.

anotherlostie

Because the second set of tracks will only run to Hazelhatch, does this mean there will be no increased frequency on services west of this, e.g. Sallins and Newbridge?

dowlingm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

From Kylemore Road to le Fanu Road to be precise and will still have the old signalling system as that link mentions.

And such a reasoned comment one finds on that site:

Just remember, boys and girls, that the fact that you were following orders didn't work for the Nazis, it will not work for you either. In case the most corrupt police force in Western Europe is watching this site, let me give an analogy. On Christmas Day 1988, if a Romanian had called for the execution of the Ceaucescus, chances are he/she would have been punished by the establishment. A year later, the Ceaucescus were executed. All it takes to remove a State is for 5% of the State's citizens to stop co-operating.

goingnowhere

Sponge Bob wrote: »

From Kylemore Road to le Fanu Road to be precise and will still have the old signalling system as that link mentions.

Don't think 2000 is considered old, the new signalling did the world of good for services from Kildare at peak hours, really noticed it.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

and then there is the Arrow issue and the 2700 issue

Boys in British Rail hit this in the 80's, researched it, invented a gadget to solve it, all the arrows have them. This very sad person is typical of the negative uninformed NIMBY crap that extends the suffering of the public he doesn't deserve a platform for his views.

Cool Mo D

Am I missing something here? Why does anything between Heuston and Park West need to be four tracked. Surely 4 tracks are only necessary where there are both stopping and express services. Won't all trains will be going Heuston to Park West full speed, i.e. no stopping so don't need to be seperated so four tracks won't provide much benefit. As long as the 4 track section starts before the first suburban station, so suburban trains can drop onto the "slow" tracks before decelerating into the station, it is not necessary to have 4 tracks out of Heuston.

The only issues with not four-tracking straight out of Heuston is that trains can not leave at exactly the same time, which is not really necessary anyway. There could also be a hold up if fast Intercity trains are caught behind slower commuter trains, but I don't think there's much of a potential speed difference between them. I think that it's in the order of 70mph for commuter and 90mp for intercity - not much of a holdup for a few miles.

It will probably be necessary in the future to four track further in towards the city to add a closer station to the city, as there is large gap between Heuston and Park West. And also to continue further out at least as far as Sallins to serve Naas properly.

Pineapple stu

KC61 wrote: »

I would suggest you take a look at the interconnector plans either at the public consultations or online.

The tunnel entrance is planned to be in the old Heuston Goods Yard, and not at Cherry Orchard.

At the Institute of Engineers presentation earlier this year, it was intimated that the 4-tracking would have to be extended from Cherry Orchard to Heuston, with major embankment works required along the "Gullet" between Heuston and Inchicore, when the Interconnector was being built.

Never mind them. You heard it here first

watch out for striking dart drivers who wont drive to maynooth or through the tunnel when the lines are upgraded

L1011

goingnowhere wrote: »

Boys in British Rail hit this in the 80's, researched it, invented a gadget to solve it, all the arrows have them. This very sad person is typical of the negative uninformed NIMBY crap that extends the suffering of the public he doesn't deserve a platform for his views.

Britsh Rail's protection systemS (they have three - AWS, TPWS and ATP) and ours (CAWS) work differently.

Additionally, have you any proof that there are any devices fitted to DMU railcars in Ireland? Considering they were not supplied with them, when were they fitted?

Victor

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Am I missing something here? Why does anything between Heuston and Park West need to be four tracked. Surely 4 tracks are only necessary where there are both stopping and express services. Won't all trains will be going Heuston to Park West full speed, i.e. no stopping so don't need to be seperated so four tracks won't provide much benefit. As long as the 4 track section starts before the first suburban station, so suburban trains can drop onto the "slow" tracks before decelerating into the station, it is not necessary to have 4 tracks out of Heuston.

Heuston-Inchicore is quite busy and if stations are to be added, then more tracks are needed.

Sponge Bob

Victor wrote: »

Heuston-Inchicore is quite busy and if stations are to be added, then more tracks are needed.

Well if electrification of the two track section is to occur then a number of bridges like Kylemore Rd and Memorial Road etc need to be rebuilt and raised

If you must rebuild these overbridges in order to electrify the line then you may as well quad track as well , it will have to be done sooner or later .

There is space to do this between Inchicore and Heuston but its very tight on the twin track section either side of Kylemore Road .

monument

Victor wrote: »

Heuston-Inchicore is quite busy...

Yeah. Although, from using Mayo trains, that's an understatement. There's nearly always delays between Inchicore and Heuston. Without four tracking I wouldn't like to see it with extra services added.

Victor wrote: »

...and if stations are to be added, then more tracks are needed.

From a collage newspaper I ran last year...

“I’ve talked to Irish Rail and they are considering building a train station near the Kylemore Road Luas stop,” David King, the project manager for the Lucan Luas told this newspaper. “This will not happen until the Kildare route is finished”

So, Irish Rail have looked into it at least.

BendiBus

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Well if electrification of the two track section is to occur then a number of bridges like Kylemore Rd and Memorial Road etc need to be rebuilt and raised

Or the track can be lowered.

dowlingm

BendiBus wrote: »

Or the track can be lowered.

An odd comment the week that so much of the rail network flooded...

MYOB

MYOB wrote: »

Britsh Rail's protection systemS (they have three - AWS, TPWS and ATP) and ours (CAWS) work differently.

Additionally, have you any proof that there are any devices fitted to DMU railcars in Ireland? Considering they were not supplied with them, when were they fitted?

I have also heard that this problem was fixed. The two single railcars, 2751 and 2753 were banned from running singly due to this but were repaired to improve conduction with the rails. They can and have run alone since this time.

BendiBus

dowlingm wrote: »

An odd comment the week that so much of the rail network flooded...

Then the Interconnector needs a radical rethink

Drainage is more important than altitude once you're not below the level of adjacent water. From what I can see, Islandbridge to Kylemore is well above river level.

D'Peoples Voice

is the road bridge at Hazelhatch accessible to traffic yet, last time I used that road between Lucan and Newcastle it was out of action!

murphaph

No still closed.

Victor

Isn't there a second bridge (due to be demolished) only a few hundred metres away?

L1011

Victor wrote: »

Isn't there a second bridge (due to be demolished) only a few hundred metres away?

There is, but its very poor and can add ten minutes at peak to the journey.

D'Peoples Voice

MYOB wrote: »

There is, but its very poor and can add ten minutes at peak to the journey.

what was I typing, I meant Celbridge to Newcastle road at Hazelhatch station,
not Lucan to Newcastle road, that would be Adamstown station!
Anyway, I didn't chance it, I went Celbridge to Lucan to Adamstown to Newcastle!

ilovegermany

O my god, what a mess - typically Irish to leave a vital piece of line as 2 or 3 track and then spending billions either end of it....

Not sure if this is the right thread, but surely the Interconnector is going to cause havoc on the Northern Line in the absence of any four tracking at all??

spacetweek

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

is the road bridge at Hazelhatch accessible to traffic yet, last time I used that road between Lucan and Newcastle it was out of action!

Am wondering about Hazelhatch station - is the renovation complete? Am putting together an info site and need dates for stuff like this. I emailed kildareoute@civilservantemailadress.com but they didn't answer.

Pisser Dignam

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Why does anything between Heuston and Park West need to be four tracked. Surely 4 tracks are only necessary where there are both stopping and express services. Won't all trains will be going Heuston to Park West full speed, i.e. no stopping so don't need to be seperated so four tracks won't provide much benefit. As long as the 4 track section starts before the first suburban station, so suburban trains can drop onto the "slow" tracks before decelerating into the station, it is not necessary to have 4 tracks out of Heuston.

The only issues with not four-tracking straight out of Heuston is that trains can not leave at exactly the same time, which is not really necessary anyway. There could also be a hold up if fast Intercity trains are caught behind slower commuter trains, but I don't think there's much of a potential speed difference between them. I think that it's in the order of 70mph for commuter and 90mp for intercity - not much of a holdup for a few miles.

It will probably be necessary in the future to four track further in towards the city to add a closer station to the city, as there is large gap between Heuston and Park West. And also to continue further out at least as far as Sallins to serve Naas properly.

Ah sure, who needs 4 tracks into Ireland's largest train station? That's only mad.

dublinhead

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

is the road bridge at Hazelhatch accessible to traffic yet, last time I used that road between Lucan and Newcastle it was out of action!

The road opened today and its a great job.:)

Victor

spacetweek wrote: »

Am wondering about Hazelhatch station - is the renovation complete? Am putting together an info site and need dates for stuff like this.

I was out there a few weeks ago. Its coming together, but I don't think it would be quite ready yet.

Optimus Prime

They have marked the roads and started working on the Lefanu Road bridge today. My parents live there and got a notice letter in the door at 5 oclock yesterday evening saying they where starting at half 8. They are retired as are a few people on the road and dont have a clue whats going on. Can anyone tell me exactly what is happening with regards the bridge on Lefanu? are they knocking it down and widening?

bg07

It would make sense if they were to knock the Le Fanu bridge and rebuild it to allow quad tracking beneath it and then when finished divert Kylemore road traffic over it while they to the same to the Kylemore road bridge. This process would take a long time it would be good to get it out of the way so that connecting the interconnector would be more straight forward. I didn’t they had funding to start this already though. Might just be more minor works.

Optimus Prime

The road is sprayed up and over the bridge as well as down the lane off lefanu where the small field is and across the road. They where doing work over the opposite side of the bridge this morning on the factorys side. My parents are trying to find out exactly what is going on. I dont think sticking a notice in the door at 5 oclock the night before asking them to move their cars is fair to be honest. although this probably isnt the place to be complaining about that.

Victor

There are contact details here: http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/kildare_contact_us.asp

Pineapple stu

Its all part of the surveying for the tunnel.

cgcsb

Does anyone know when the Kildare line quad tracking will see passager services?

Cool Mo D

cgcsb wrote: »

Does anyone know when the Kildare line quad tracking will see passager services?

It already is, I think, and trains are overtaking each other on it. At the moment, I think they've decided to relay the original tracks out of Heuston, so there's three out of four tracks operational at any one time.

But, originally there was to be more Kildare commuter services after it was finished - don't think that's happening now.

KC61

In the "up" direction (i.e. towards Dublin) both tracks are fully operational and there are trains overtaking one another.

However, only one track in the "down" direction (i.e. away from Dublin) is operational as both of these tracks are being fully relaid. The "down fast" track (i.e the outside one) is currently being relaid and when it is completed the "down slow" (i.e. the inside one) will be relaid. I'd imagine that will complete next year.

There will not be any new services on the route until the next delivery of rolling stock arrives. There was never going to be any until that happens (late next year) as there simply are no units available to operate them.

foggy_lad

The down slow track has already been relaid afaik from seeing it being worked on over the last several months and they are now working away on the outside track. Thank god they seem to be able to lay track well!

cgcsb

Excelent so could anyone estimate when the remaining track being upgraded will finish? will we see an enhanced Kildare service in 2011ish or will it have to wait until DART in 2018?

Pineapple stu

The track is down and is being stoned and Tamped. Once that is finished then the rest is to be re-layed. Project should finish by January. Surveying is also taking place for the tunnel with test drills being done by la fanu bridge.

KC61

cgcsb wrote: »

Excelent so could anyone estimate when the remaining track being upgraded will finish? will we see an enhanced Kildare service in 2011ish or will it have to wait until DART in 2018?

Possibly - earliest would be probably early 2012 when the next tranche of units enter service.