my notice - 4 weeks and a month!?

Mrbrianmolko

Ok I’m leaving jobs, have managed to secure 2 weeks off work inbetween jobs. So I gave my notice and booked a holiday.

Now a few days after giving my notice I get an email of HR saying my leaving date will be 3 days later than I said, as I have to give a months notice and I only gave 4 weeks notice (I just calculated the month as 4 weeks). My manager has no problems me going these 3 days earlier and I even have 1 holiday day left to cover one of the days, but HR wont back down. They say a contract is a contract, which I think is true but this is petty. I’m going to have to cancel the holiday now and will only get a week away instead.

It’s not even as if I’m running the show I work in admin and there’s not even much work at the min!! And I’m still on probation period as well, anyone else think this is crazy?

AARRRGH

That's a bit mean of HR!

They are in the right though. Your contract overrides any other statutory notice period.

Do you need them as a reference?

sock.rocker*

how many sick days do you have a year? legally you can just call in sick on or two of the days and holiday the other day.. doesn't matter if its blatent obvious since you're leavin anyway. i wouldn't miss a holiday if i wasn't stayin in the job.

AARRRGH

sock.rocker* wrote: »

how many sick days do you have a year? legally you can just call in sick on or two of the days and holiday the other day.. doesn't matter if its blatent obvious since you're leavin anyway. i wouldn't miss a holiday if i wasn't stayin in the job.

You could do this, but it might mess up your reference, as they'll know you're faking it.

gary the great

If you have a sick note they cant say nothing.

thats a really ghey thing of thme to do though, you must of pissed off HR pretty bad in your time there!

AARRRGH

gary the great wrote: »

If you have a sick note they cant say nothing.

Well, they could say:

We told her she would have to work a full months notice. She told us she did not want to do this as she had already booked a holiday. We told her we sympathise but we need her in the office. Unfortunately she called in sick during the days she had booked her holiday.

...

The sick note doesn't really make it sound any better!

leeroybrown

It's probably just a case of 'HR bring HR'. They probably saw you as chancing their arm and got annoyed about it. Also, there might well be someone there who's annoyed about some they had to go to the trouble of hiring leaving so soon. They've raised a stink now so they can't be seen to back down. Normally these things are handled reasonably

I'd suggest that you get your manager to do you a favour and push it up the chain a step or two. Say that it was a genuine miscalculation of dates and that you'll be heavily out of pocket if you have to cancel it. Appear like you're looking for some kind of compromise and that you probably won't have any work to do on those days anyway. If there's any genuine way that you can make it look like HR have done something slowly or unreasonably it might help your case with others.

Bogger77

Simply suggest to HR, that having a disgruntal admin loose on the IT system is not good. Refer them to the news reports on the San Francisco city council issues of last month.

if you're on probation, simply tell your new employer that you're invoking the one week rule, and that any reference from that company should be taken as biased against you.

Jo King

Does the contract specifically say "calender month"? A period of four weeks is often referred to a a month and if the contract was drawn up by your employer you are entitled to the benefit of the ambiguity. Ask to have the matter referred to a Rights Commissioner if HR are being awkward.

From the free dictionary:-

"The lunar mouth is composed of twenty-eight days only. When a law is passed or contract made, and the month is expressly stated to be solar or civil, which is expressed by the term calendar month, or when it is expressed to be a lunar month, no difficulty can arise; but when time is given for the performance of an act, and the word month simply is used, so that the intention of the parties cannot be ascertained then the question arises, how shall the month be computed? By the law of England a month means ordinarily, in common contracts, as, in leases, a lunar month; a contract, therefore, made for a lease of land for twelve months, would mean a lease for forty-eight weeks only. 2 Bl. Com. 141; 6 Co. R. 62; 6 T. R. 224. A distinction has been made between "twelve months," and "a twelve-month;" the latter has been held to mean a year. 6 Co. R. 61."

Lamps

Jo King wrote: »

Does the contract specifically say "calender month"? A period of four weeks is often referred to a a month and if the contract was drawn up by your employer you are entitled to the benefit of the ambiguity. Ask to have the matter referred to a Rights Commissioner if HR are being awkward.

From the free dictionary:-

"The lunar mouth is composed of twenty-eight days only. When a law is passed or contract made, and the month is expressly stated to be solar or civil, which is expressed by the term calendar month, or when it is expressed to be a lunar month, no difficulty can arise; but when time is given for the performance of an act, and the word month simply is used, so that the intention of the parties cannot be ascertained then the question arises, how shall the month be computed? By the law of England a month means ordinarily, in common contracts, as, in leases, a lunar month; a contract, therefore, made for a lease of land for twelve months, would mean a lease for forty-eight weeks only. 2 Bl. Com. 141; 6 Co. R. 62; 6 T. R. 224. A distinction has been made between "twelve months," and "a twelve-month;" the latter has been held to mean a year. 6 Co. R. 61."

Thats a great piece of advice right there, throw that in their face tommorrow!

leeroybrown

A month's notice will be interpreted as a calendar month as opposed to four weeks. I don't think any attempted weaseling on those grounds will get the OP anywhere particularly if they're getting paid 'monthly'.

Mrbrianmolko

But it doesnt state a calendar month, just says a "month" which can be interpreted as 28-31 days. The contract doesnt state exactly what it means by a month, therefore I was under the impression i get the benefit of the doubt seeing as it was them who drew up the contract? Therefore 4 weeks or 28days. the pettyness of this is crazy....

leeroybrown

I've never come across anything that shows that 'one month' would would be interpreted as '28 days' for an Irish employment contract. I'm open to correction if anyone can show that this is the case.

uberwolf

leeroybrown wrote: »

A month's notice will be interpreted as a calendar month as opposed to four weeks. I don't think any attempted weaseling on those grounds will get the OP anywhere particularly if they're getting paid 'monthly'.

isn't it typically by the hour, task or annually?

Wile E. Coyote

If you've been already offered the job and are due to start 2 weeks after you leave you current job whats the chances that they're going to start looking for a reference now anyway? Surely they would have gotten the reference before offering you the position.

Book the days holiday for your very last day and call in sick the two days before hand.

Mrbrianmolko

I get paid every 2 weeks not monthly.

Just done a bit of searching around, this is what im getting:

Note: In the common law, a month is a lunar month, or
twenty-eight days, unless otherwise expressed.
--Blackstone. In the United States the rule of the
common law is generally changed, and a month is
declared to mean a calendar month. --Cooley's
Blackstone.
[1913 Webster]

Have found this on a few sites now

leeroybrown

It doesn't specifically reference Irish Common Law.

Iago

If you're still on probation then presumeably you're not in the company that long? I would check your contract as generally you only have to give 1-2 weeks notice during a probationary period (if you've joined the company in the last 6 months)

leeroybrown

It appears that the Interpretation Act (2005) [Irish Statute Book] defines a month in Schedule (Interpretation of Particular Words and Expressions), Part I as:

“month” means a calendar month;

This should then be the interpretation applied under contract/common law.

AARRRGH

I think I would send a very personal e-mail to HR, stating how you would really appreciate it if she could let you leave the two days early, how the holiday is so important to you, how you would be willing to return the favour by being available by phone for a few weeks to help your replacement with any issues, etc. , and CC your manager.

If she is in any way human, she will compromise.

Duckjob

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think I would send a very personal e-mail to HR, stating how you would really appreciate it if she could let you leave the two days early, how the holiday is so important to you, how you would be willing to return the favour by being available by phone for a few weeks to help your replacement with any issues, etc. , and CC your manager.

If she is in any way human, she will compromise.

^^^ Good advise. Offering something from your side gives HR the opportunity to compromise without feeling they are losing face.

Softly softly catch the monkey.

testicle

What would happen if you handed in your notice on the 1st of February in a non-leap year? A month then would be 4 weeks...

The Chessplayer

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think I would send a very personal e-mail to HR, stating how you would really appreciate it if she could let you leave the two days early, how the holiday is so important to you, how you would be willing to return the favour by being available by phone for a few weeks to help your replacement with any issues, etc. , and CC your manager.

If she is in any way human, she will compromise.

This is absurd. Just tell them that you have to leave as you booked a holiday. End of story.

As a bottom feeder you will surely be forgotten before you even get to the car-park, or bus stop as the case may be.

AARRRGH

The Chessplayer wrote: »

This is absurd. Just tell them that you have to leave as you booked a holiday. End of story.

As a bottom feeder you will surely be forgotten before you even get to the car-park, or bus stop as the case may be.

It's not end of story, as they have already said no. They have all the power in this situation - contract law is on their side.

Yes of course the OP can just walk out, but that's bye bye reference.

damnyanks

Whats the point in dealing with HR ? They are nothing other then pen pushers in this circumstance. Talk to your manager and explain what the deal is. HR Just enforce contracts, nothing else nothing more. They dont have the power to override it (Even if they let on they can)

It's not like you were expecting to be paid for the last 3 days so say you are happy to take it as unpaid leave.

The Chessplayer

AARRRGH wrote: »

It's not end of story, as they have already said no. They have all the power in this situation - contract law is on their side.

Yes of course the OP can just walk out, but that's bye bye reference.

Oh no, quick cancel the holiday!!! These contracts are utterly meaningless. 28 days notice is entirely reasonable regardless of the contract and will not have any bearing on a future reference.

AARRRGH

damnyanks wrote: »

Whats the point in dealing with HR ? They are nothing other then pen pushers in this circumstance. Talk to your manager and explain what the deal is. HR Just enforce contracts, nothing else nothing more. They dont have the power to override it (Even if they let on they can)

I agree completely. If your manager is happy with you leaving a few days earlier, then it should be end of story.

It sounds like this is an angry HR person trying to exert some power.

And as you say, HR people are administrators. They are not some kind of senior decision maker.

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Oh no, quick cancel the holiday!!! These contracts are utterly meaningless. 28 days notice is entirely reasonable regardless of the contract and will not have any bearing on a future reference.

That is bad advice.

kayos

Any time I was leaving a full time job the month was always done as 4 weeks by the employer. The joys of HR peeps acting like they are gods....

Tails142

How can it even be a calendar month... what calendar month??

If you hand in your notice on the 1st, then fine it works out, work the rest of the month till the 30th or 31st.

But if you hand it in on the 12th of August how long is it then? August is 31 days, September is 30 days, how do they decide?

damnyanks

This is what I mean - HR cant answer those questions. They just look at their little book of policy and follow what that says.

A lad on our team was made redundant months ago, he had been in the company 4 years and 365 days. HR said they werent paying him the 5th year redundancy payout because he hadnt been there 5 years.

He just said he'll talk to his lawyer and got it sorted.

Honestly they are pointless.

Bluetonic

damnyanks wrote: »

This is what I mean - HR cant answer those questions. They just look at their little book of policy and follow what that says.

A lad on our team was made redundant months ago, he had been in the company 4 years and 365 days. HR said they werent paying him the 5th year redundancy payout because he hadnt been there 5 years.

He just said he'll talk to his lawyer and got it sorted.

Honestly they are pointless.

Well thats strange because for redundancy payments you work out the fraction of the year worked and pay that fraction.

Mrbrianmolko

’ve tried everything lads. I wrote out a nice email asking really nicely etc if we could waive the last 2 days etc and she came down to see me with a copy of my contract and start waffling on saying I had to do it etc I threw the whole definition of a month thing at her and she start saying if I want to get legal she can go legal to! I was like thinking to myself would you ever just cop on….

The woman is a psycho seriously, she’ll be lucky if to keep me here the next few weeks. My boss says he can give me a reference no bother and she can be bypassed etc.

My boss also had a word with her saying this situation is ridiculous and she still wouldn’t back down.

AARRRGH

Mrbrianmolko wrote: »

My boss says he can give me a reference no bother and she can be bypassed etc.

Nice one. If your manager is genuinely cool will it, ask him what he thinks you should do (i.e. ring in sick) and take it from there.

Wile E. Coyote

If she's going to be that unreasonable about then call in sick. You are entitled to take 2 days without having a doctors note. I'd even go to the doctor and get the note just to stick it in her face.

I would love to see her go to the company solicitor because you wouldn't work the last two days of your contract. He'd laugh at her and it would cost them more than it was worth to persue it.

Jo King

Vone Securities Limited, Plaintiff v. Gerald Cooke, Defendant 1979 1 IR

Held by Costello J., and affirmed by the Supreme Court (O'Higgins C.J., Henchy and Kenny JJ.), in making the order sought, 1, that, apart from certain exceptions, at common law the word"month" means prima facie a lunar month of 28 days when used in a legal instrument.

"In fact, not long after the decision in P. Phipps & Co. v. Rogers 13 [1925] 1 K.B. 14. , the United Kingdom parliament took steps to amend the common-law rule by the Law of Property Act, 1925, which provided at s. 61 that in all deeds, contracts, wills, orders and other instruments executed, made, or coming into operation after the 31st of December, 1925, the word "month" means"calendar month" unless the context otherwise requires. However, no such steps were taken in this country. Whilst the Interpretation Act, 1937, provides that in every Act of the Oireachtas and in every instrument made wholly or partly under any such Act, the word "month" means a calendar month unless a contrary intention appears, no provision similar to that contained in the United Kingdom statute has been enacted."

The 2005 Interpretation Act does not change the common law rule. It only applies to acts of parliament.
Your notice is in accordance with the contract. Tell the HR woman to go and jump.

leeroybrown

Thanks for that Jo King. Hopefully the OP checks in soon to see the good news. It's a real pain to dig up accurate information about those kind of legal minutiae.

Claire121

double post

dade

personally I'd just not turn up. your manager has agreed that you don't need to, she can try the legal route but it would cost the company more in the long run to pursue it. like was said the company lawyer would laugh at her as would her boss.

why not write a letter to the CEO of the company or something, go over this yokes head, explain that th holiday is a family holiday or something.

if you have a new job to move to i take it that reference checks are already done? have you signed your contract for the new job? if so just don't bother turning up to be honest.

The Chessplayer

Anyone who thinks that a company might pursue legal channels (even if an employee left without any notice whatsoever) is living in a fantasy world. It's certainly not bottom-feeders in HR who would make decisions on taking legal action. The sole intent of business is to make money, not to waste it on the irrelevant squabblings of a pair of boot-cleaners. The very notion of these two battling it out over the legal meaning of a month is absurd.

It would probably reflect quite badly on the HR employee if the OP started whinging about it to senior management.

AARRRGH

No one thinks there will be a legal challenge, but most people agree it will damage her reference from that company. I know her current manager says he will give her a reference, but what if he leaves the company?

The Chessplayer

AARRRGH wrote: »

No one thinks there will be a legal challenge, but most people agree it will damage her reference from that company. I know her current manager says he will give her a reference, but what if he leaves the company?

The way you're carrying on you'd swear it was akin to having a criminal record. I would say just ring in sick, or get your ma to do it if you are on holiday.

AARRRGH

No, I'm saying it's not simply a case of "**** them" and calling in sick. Your actions can have repercussions.

Mrbrianmolko

"Vone Securities Limited, Plaintiff v. Gerald Cooke, Defendant 1979 1 IR

Held by Costello J., and affirmed by the Supreme Court (O'Higgins C.J., Henchy and Kenny JJ.), in making the order sought, 1, that, apart from certain exceptions, at common law the word"month" means prima facie a lunar month of 28 days when used in a legal instrument".

It seems that that rule is used when making laws legal instrument?), but in a contract would that still apply? Thanks for everyones help by the way, really appreciated.

She’s not backing down on this, my boss has said to other section bosses and they would love to get one over her on this as they’re sick of her, she’s got wind of this and is really sticking to her guns now. Everybody knows I’m not coming in them extra days but I wanted to leave on the best terms possible and all above board…

Think I’d rather just ring in sick than go to the head boss, the HR boss would go mental if he overrode her decision and he knows it’s not worth the hassle.

Office politics at its best this…

dade

Mrbrianmolko wrote: »

the HR boss would go mental if he overrode her decision and . …

what do you care about yer one from HRs feelings on the matter. your boss has agreed she is acting up a word with the MD or CEO may salve the matter with you still maintaining a good reference

Mrbrianmolko wrote: »

Office politics at its best this…

isn't it a pain in the nuts? i hate it with a passion.

i had one HR bint refuse to let me see my personnel file on my last day in a company saying i wasn't entitled to see it. so i printed the legislation out in front of her. then i asked for a copy. she said what pages i said all of it. her jaw dropped. 4 years with the company there was plenty in it. she photocopied it all, and when she handed it over i took one page out and threw the rest in the shredding bin in front of her and walked out the door.

Jo King

Mrbrianmolko wrote: »

"Vone Securities Limited, Plaintiff v. Gerald Cooke, Defendant 1979 1 IR

Held by Costello J., and affirmed by the Supreme Court (O'Higgins C.J., Henchy and Kenny JJ.), in making the order sought, 1, that, apart from certain exceptions, at common law the word"month" means prima facie a lunar month of 28 days when used in a legal instrument".

It seems that that rule is used when making laws legal instrument?), but in a contract would that still apply? Thanks for everyones help by the way, really appreciated.

She’s not backing down on this, my boss has said to other section bosses and they would love to get one over her on this as they’re sick of her, she’s got wind of this and is really sticking to her guns now. Everybody knows I’m not coming in them extra days but I wanted to leave on the best terms possible and all above board…

Think I’d rather just ring in sick than go to the head boss, the HR boss would go mental if he overrode her decision and he knows it’s not worth the hassle.

Office politics at its best this…

It is very much the case that a contract is governed by the common law rule. The laws made by the oireachtas are governed by the Interpretation Act.
The only way the HR woman will back down is if a written legal opinion is given to her. Someone at a senior level should get the company solicitor to write a note on the issue.