[Article] Railway station planned for Croker

IIMII

Sunday Business Post

10 August 2008 By Dick O’Brien

A new railway station is being planned for Croke Park in Dublin. Iarnród Eireann is expected to have high-level discussions with the GAA to open the new railway station at the GAA headquarters.

It is anticipated that the GAA would make a significant contribution towards its development costs, given that the new station has the potential to deliver a large amount of fans to the stadium on match days.

Croke Park is situated adjacent to the Sligo railway line, which serves stations in Boyle, Carrick-on-Shannon, Mullingar, Enfield, Kilcock, Maynooth and Leixlip. A spur on the line serving Dunboyne and Navan is planned for completion in 2015. The line terminates in Connolly station in Dublin, which is in turn connected with the Wexford and Belfast lines.

However, the real benefit of the station will come with the construction of the planned rail interconnector between Heuston station and Pearse station in the city centre. This has the potential to allow Iarnród Eireann to deliver trains directly to Croke Park from locations such as Cork, Limerick, and Galway. The interconnector is scheduled for completion in 2015.

The main problem facing any plan for the new station is the logistical challenge of moving large numbers of fans on and off trains on match days. Croke Park has a maximum capacity of 82,500 people, and were a new station to prove viable it would have to be able to accommodate large numbers of matchgoers.

Zebra3

Is the walk from Drumcondra station too far?

paulm17781

I notice there's no proposed location, I also suspect there is no proposed station.

IIMII

I wonder would there be a business case for it though? And does the length of Drumcomdra's platform limit it's use in that regard?

It's a very vague article to say the least

paulm17781

It's been discussed here and other places before but nothing was ever done. It's only practical if IE put a stop on (and use) the midland line as you could go under the stadium, there could be a million health and safety issues though.

I fail to see how the interconnector has any relevance. You can already do the proposed journey. All in all, I'd say it's nonsense.

Nostradamus

IIMII wrote: »

I wonder would there be a business case for it though?

The business case is tragically that CIE are fighting for the Interconnector in the wake of the recent rail strikes. CIE seems to be Titanic Deckchairs mode right now trying to get everyone with influence behind it and this includes the GAA- hence the silly comment about trains full of GAA supporters from Cork coming trough the tunnel. We know that's a crock, but it shows just how worried IE are the interconenctor is to be shelved.

Expect a rash of publicity pushing the interconector in the media in the coming weeks.

Be afraid, be very afraid...

godtabh

This has been talked for for years. It would be underneath the Canal End. They have space there. It would be on the Clonsilla- Docklands line but I'm sure on match days it would be possible to go from town/maynooth as well

whosedaddy?

and how many match days are there every year to make a viable business case?

KC61

The problem with Drumcondra is that it is not suitable for fast entrance and exit of large crowds.

A full train can stop there, but it takes forever for everyone to get out of the station as there is only one exit, down a large number of stairs.

I'm not sure what space there is at the Canal End on the Canal side of the tracks for a platform - I vaguely recall it being suggested that the overhang over the canal which would result from a suitably wide platform (in order to spread the crowds out) was excessive.

iwudluvit

whosedaddy? wrote: »

and how many match days are there every year to make a viable business case?

between the rugby internationals and the neil diamond concerts, I'd say it'd be pretty busy.

trellheim

I was looking at it very closely last year and my thought was that an overhang of some kind would be needed if two platforms were required, if only one [ on the stadium side ] then it might be possible with judicious underpinning and reinforcement work

serfboard

whosedaddy? wrote: »

and how many match days are there every year to make a viable business case?

Football Final + Hurling Final + Semi-Finals (assuming non-double-headers) = 6. Quarter Finals (assuming double-headers) = 4. Leinster Final = 1. League Final = 1. Clubs Final = 1. Rugby competitive = 2 or 3(tops). Rugby Friendlies = 3(tops). Soccer Competitive = 3(tops) & 3 (tops) Friendlies. Concerts = 2(tops) TOTAL: 27.

Not enough - and this is, I think, the maximum. I agree with other posters - I think this is PR nonsense which is not going to be funded anyway.

Skyhater

I vaguely remember when the original plans for the new croke park were unveiled that a Station was part of the plans. Indeed it may have been part of the original planning permission.

Logically the only existing location where a station could be built in is on the Midland line (canal end). But this could only provide services from Docklands to Sligo/Navan (...if it's ever built).

If they do want to put the Interconnector/Connolly into play they would need to locate a station at the Railway/Hill16 end.
This makes me wonder is this one piece in the Jigsaw to complete croke park???? It's obvious that croke park has been designed to be a bowl stadium with the existing Hogan/cusack stand continuing around. If that was never on the agenda, they would have swept the stands down to cover a single teer Hill 16 (like is being done with Lansdowne Road).
I know this would be a huge project with alot of property needing to be purchased, railway track realignment, and Road Realignment...... But is it Possible????

markpb

IIMII wrote: »

It is anticipated that the GAA would make a significant contribution towards its development costs, given that the new station has the potential to deliver a large amount of fans to the stadium on match days.

Since the gaa refused to pay towards a park & ride facility, I can't see them making much of a contribution towards the much larger costs of a new train station.

Rawr

Hmm...that SBP article is kind of confusing, it seems to suggest a station on the Hill 16 side of Croker (which is Drumcondra essentially).

As anyone who has tried to use Drumcondra on match night, or passed through, the station is nearly bursting at the seems with the amount of people and the trains tend to fill up (leaving punters waiting for the next one...)

A second station on the Docklands line could help to releave Drumcondra and spread out the load on match night. It could also serve as a stop for all those who grab a Docklands train, and would have gotten off at Drumcondra if they had caught a Connolly-bound train.

Since the Interconnector exits not too far from the existing Docklands line, perhaps a connecting spur would be a good idea? If that was possible you could almost have an Intercity run all the way to Croker. (Or a shuttle DART to/from Heuston) It would be good if they are thinking that way.

IIMII

serfboard wrote: »

Football Final + Hurling Final + Semi-Finals (assuming non-double-headers) = 6. Quarter Finals (assuming double-headers) = 4. Leinster Final = 1. League Final = 1. Clubs Final = 1. Rugby competitive = 2 or 3(tops). Rugby Friendlies = 3(tops). Soccer Competitive = 3(tops) & 3 (tops) Friendlies. Concerts = 2(tops) TOTAL: 27.

Some of the back door matches are played there too, eg Kerry vs Monaghan weekend before last

BrianD

Nostradamus wrote: »

The business case is tragically that CIE are fighting for the Interconnector in the wake of the recent rail strikes. CIE seems to be Titanic Deckchairs mode right now trying to get everyone with influence behind it and this includes the GAA- hence the silly comment about trains full of GAA supporters from Cork coming trough the tunnel. We know that's a crock, but it shows just how worried IE are the interconenctor is to be shelved.

Expect a rash of publicity pushing the interconector in the media in the coming weeks.

Be afraid, be very afraid...

Will I think it's in everyones interest that the interconnector goes ahead as it's one of the more practical rail projects in recent times.

Having said that i fail to see what the connection with Croker is unless they are looking at the grand scheme of things.

The Midland Line (the one that isn't open) runs directly underneath the Canal End of the stadium. It would take a massave amount of modification to the stadium to accomodate a rail station there. There is certainly no platform space on the 'pitch' side of the line as this is a service road.

It would seem that in other countries that have rail stations close to a stadium that they have major problems with overcrowding and it's a challenge to manage these crowds. Perhaps the solution is to have a another station close by Croke Park and not necessarily beside or underneath it.

Croke park was never meant to be a bowl type stadium - primarily because of the sacred ground that is Hill 16 and the fact that the houses north of the stadium would never see daylight again! Also I have seen the drawings for the stadium and there were never plans for a railway station. The Canal end plans have the rail lines indicated so that what is might have caused confusion.

IIMII

I know that the GAA has been buying up those houses affected by loss of daylight if the Hill 16 stand is ever built so who knows

Skyhater

BrianD wrote: »

Will I think it's in everyones interest that the interconnector goes ahead as it's one of the more practical rail projects in recent times.

Totally agree!!! Everyone should lobby their local politician to ensure this is not shelved!!

BrianD wrote: »

The Midland Line (the one that isn't open) runs directly underneath the Canal End of the stadium.

The Midland line is open..... The Clonsilla > Docklands services run on it.

BrianD wrote: »

Croke park was never meant to be a bowl type stadium - primarily because of the sacred ground that is Hill 16 and the fact that the houses north of the stadium would never see daylight again!

If the ultimate aim of the Design is not a "Bowl Stadium", then the designers did an absolute crap job. It's obvious that it's a partially complete design. If this was never the case, they would have swept down the stands to a single tear stand over hill 16. They have done this at the North End of Lansdowne Road to solve the daylight problem in Havelock Square.

The sacred ground that is Hill16 is long gone.... It's modern 21st century concrete that is there now.
I'm not 100% sure if the GAA have bought any houses yet (but IIMII may be correct), but i know they put in offers for one that went on the market two years ago.

IIMII

Is (or was it) possible to get from the midland line to Connolly other than via Drumcondra?

spurious

Zebra3 wrote: »

Is the walk from Drumcondra station too far?

+1

What is it about GAA fans that they cannot walk from public transport? Soccer, rugby or concerts you don't get the ludicrous jamming of the area with cars.

Let them walk from Drumcondra Road - it won't kill them.
</rant induced by yet another GAA 'sports fan' using my front door as a toilet last weekend:mad:>

Skyhater

IIMII wrote: »

Is (or was it) possible to get from the midland line to Connolly other than via Drumcondra?

Only way at present is to go Glasnevin Junction (between Drumcondra and Broombridge) and onto the connolly line there.

jjbrien

IIMII wrote: »

Sunday Business Post

10 August 2008 By Dick O’Brien



However, the real benefit of the station will come with the construction of the planned rail interconnector between Heuston station and Pearse station in the city centre. This has the potential to allow Iarnród Eireann to deliver trains directly to Croke Park from locations such as Cork, Limerick, and Galway. The interconnector is scheduled for completion in 2015.

This guy knows nothing croke park and connolly is already connected to Heauston and the cork, limerick, waterford and galway lines via the phonix park tunnell.

loyatemu

Skyhater wrote: »

Only way at present is to go Glasnevin Junction (between Drumcondra and Broombridge) and onto the connolly line there.

there is a direct connection from the Midland line into Connolly platform 7. Its single track and you can see it from the Dart (it goes down a steep curve towards the Canal and over a lifting bridge). I don't think its used very often, but afaik it is a useable line.

The Swordsman

I am probably being naive here, but would it not be more practical to develop Drumcondra Station to cater for the crowds than to build a new station from scratch. Even if this cannot be done, the interconnector will get fans from Heuston to Connolly, only 10 mins from Croker.

In any case, by the time a new station is planned and built, all the soccer and rugby matches will have moved back to D4.

paulm17781

loyatemu wrote: »

there is a direct connection from the Midland line into Connolly platform 7. Its single track and you can see it from the Dart (it goes down a steep curve towards the Canal and over a lifting bridge). I don't think its used very often, but afaik it is a useable line.

It is usable, I was on a train from Sligo a few months ago and it went into Connolly that way.

jjbrien

The Swordsman wrote: »

I am probably being naive here, but would it not be more practical to develop Drumcondra Station to cater for the crowds than to build a new station from scratch. Even if this cannot be done, the interconnector will get fans from Heuston to Connolly, only 10 mins from Croker.

In any case, by the time a new station is planned and built, all the soccer and rugby matches will have moved back to D4.

it would make sence you could put some more ways in and out of the station which could be done quite easily. interconnector is not needed as there already is one in place they just need to use it.

IIMII

paulm17781 wrote: »

It is usable, I was on a train from Sligo a few months ago and it went into Connolly that way.

I thought that, but wasn't sure if i remembered correctly

Skyhater

paulm17781 wrote: »

It is usable, I was on a train from Sligo a few months ago and it went into Connolly that way.

Didn't know that link was useable for passenger trains, thant'k for the info!!! (also from loyatemu)

The Swordsman wrote: »

I am probably being naive here, but would it not be more practical to develop Drumcondra Station to cater for the crowds than to build a new station from scratch......

You're not a bit naive.... Drumcondra IE station should be developed for a coupld of reasons....1) Croke Park, and 2), It's going to become a major interchange between Maynooth Line (or what will be Dart1) and Metro North. We need better access, covered platform, etc, etc.

jjbrien wrote: »

....interconnector is not needed as there already is one in place they just need to use it.

Lets quash the old "already have an interconnector" debate!!!
The interconnector give us far far far more then opening the Phoenix Park Tunnel does. Firstly and most importantely, opening the PPT will not give us any additional cross-city capacity.....it will only allow trains to run from the Kildare line into an already crowded Connelly station. Secondly, the interconnector will neatly provide us with two Dart lines delivering high capacity public transport where it's badly needed. It will also provide first class integration with Metro and Luas lines.
It's a no Brainer, the interconnector must go ahead, and cannot be compared to the PPT

Rawr

So that spur in use? I've always wondered if it would ever be used...

Just regarding a potential Croker Station, let's not forget the potential use of such a station to regular commuters (assuming it's accessible from outside Croker and open all days)

I always felt that a major piece missing in the Docklands line jigsaw, was a station between Docklands and Broombridge. Croker would be perfect, as it is so close to both Drumcondra Station (and it's many busses) and not so far from the city centre itself.

dowlingm

first off, many GAA fans may not want to be delivered direct to the match as the ritual gatherings at city centre pubs (if only for match ticket swaps) would be impeded. Secondly the Phoenix Park tunnel is actually somewhat more apt for this discussion for any non-electric services, which most GAA trains will be for a long time yet.

While Drumcondra might use some additional development, it might be useful to have a second halt on the Midland line to separate services from the same direction.

Looking at the overheads in Google and keeping in mind the accessibility requirement for no curve on new platforms, I fancy a halt might be possible using a platform cantilevered over the Canal bank between Summerhill Parade and North Strand Road.

The platform could form a boardwalk with removable railings used on days when the platform is not being used by trains. Accessibility to the nearby roads might be an issue and the environmental impact might be too, not to mention the likelihood of beered up GAA fans falling into the Canal.

A similar matchday platform at the south end of Clontarf Road station might work to accommodate NIR trains for northern services rather than taking them into Connolly.

Victor

The residents of the area deserve a station as well and not one just for match days.

Of course making the lower line outbound (local and express) and the upper line inbound (local and express) might be useful - and you would only really need platforms on one side.

I wonder if a station is a Trojan Horse so they don't have to pay the full cost of a proper service?

dowlingm

it could be a sop to local residents to promise them something they'll never get while the GAA accumulate their Hill 16 stand land bank...

Sponge Bob

Victor wrote: »

I wonder if a station is a Trojan Horse so they don't have to pay the full cost of a proper service?

I suspect that its a trojan horse cooked up by the GAA for the completion of their Railway end.

1. GAA offers 'contribution' to cost of station, some land and some cash .
2. IE buys up remaining houses north of the line on a CPO . Knocks them .
3. Station built under the 'new' north stand which is now cantilevered out over the railway line and with a south platform for stadium entry . It may even become Drumcondra station , who knows 8)
4. Metro north (east route) mysteriously 8) comes up for reexamination 8) after the cabinet refuses to accept bids for building it in 2009 8)

Stranger things have happened , CIE would go along with this one no dount seeing as their campaign for the Interconnector is underway this week . After all CIE also had the cheek to announce the Interconnector is a banker no matter what the national finances are like.

Todays Indo!!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/downturn-will-not-affect-83642bn-plan-for--rail-tunnel-1452423.html

PLANS to build a €2bn underground DART tunnel through Dublin city centre will go ahead despite the economic downturn.


The Government has told Iarnrod Eireann that its plans for a 5.2km "interconnector" linking Heuston Station to the Dublin Docklands is to proceed as planned, and the project is expected to be delivered by its 2015 deadline -- a year after Metro North is completed.


Yesterday a spokesman for the rail company said the interconnector was the main priority over the coming years and it expected to seek planning permission in autumn 2009.

It most certainly is for CIE which may explain their newfound desire to enter into some holy alliance with the GAA that is beyond the operational capability of the promoters of Metro North .

"DART Underground is a core part of Transport 21, and the Transport Minister and his Department have made it clear to us that the delivery of this project is their number one priority for Iarnrod Eireann. It's full steam ahead," the spokesman said."

Well he would say that wouldn't he

Stupido

you all seem to forget that a station was part of the design under the stands at the canal end as part of the Croke Park redevelopment. Space has been made to accomodate it. The only thing missing are the platforms. There is no need to buy land etc etc.

An example of forward thinking that nobody has recognised methinks

DWCommuter

Skyhater wrote: »

Lets quash the old "already have an interconnector" debate!!!
The interconnector give us far far far more then opening the Phoenix Park Tunnel does. Firstly and most importantely, opening the PPT will not give us any additional cross-city capacity.....it will only allow trains to run from the Kildare line into an already crowded Connelly station. Secondly, the interconnector will neatly provide us with two Dart lines delivering high capacity public transport where it's badly needed. It will also provide first class integration with Metro and Luas lines.
It's a no Brainer, the interconnector must go ahead, and cannot be compared to the PPT

The interconnector is indeed a wonderful project, but your attitude towards the PPT is lax and misinformed. The PPT has the ability to deliver cross city capacity, small in the the short term and quite large in the long term (post interconnector removes the congestion at Connolly).

Comparisons between the two are somewhat misleading, I agree, but to right off the PPT with arguments put forward by an irresponsible rail company is nothing short of membership of the foolhardy brigade. The PPT line runs true some of the most densely populated areas of Dublin. It has a paramount use outside of the scope of the interconnector. In fact the interconnector project has now highlighted how daft IE are and indeed other so called transport experts, in relation to this route. The fact that its ignored within the scope of T21 is nothing short of an insult to tax payers. But then many of you get sucked in by the bull****.

stiktoir

DWCommuter wrote: »

The interconnector is indeed a wonderful project, but your attitude towards the PPT is lax and misinformed. The PPT has the ability to deliver cross city capacity, small in the the short term and quite large in the long term (post interconnector removes the congestion at Connolly).

Comparisons between the two are somewhat misleading, I agree, but to right off the PPT with arguments put forward by an irresponsible rail company is nothing short of membership of the foolhardy brigade. The PPT line runs true some of the most densely populated areas of Dublin. It has a paramount use outside of the scope of the interconnector. In fact the interconnector project has now highlighted how daft IE are and indeed other so called transport experts, in relation to this route. The fact that its ignored within the scope of T21 is nothing short of an insult to tax payers. But then many of you get sucked in by the bull****.

right off? or write on?

very through.

gobdaw

DWCommuter wrote: »

The PPT has the ability to deliver cross city capacity, small in the the short term and quite large in the long term (post interconnector removes the congestion at Connolly).

As I understand the present IE interconnecter proposals, the Heuston rail connection will be a junction at the location of the late lamented Platform 10. In the short term the line will need to be cut there to insert the new junction. Luas is taking some 3 months to do same work at Connolly. Excavated spoil will be taken away be rail, requiring extra train paths for these trains for some years. I cann't see any real possibility of using the PPT during construction of IC.

Long term, use of PPT should be again considered in the post IC scenario.

Victor

gobdaw wrote: »

As I understand the present IE interconnecter proposals, the Heuston rail connection will be a junction at the location of the late lamented Platform 10. In the short term the line will need to be cut there to insert the new junction.

There are different options for Heuston - either the portal goes in the car park or further back towards Inchicore and the station can be either under platforms 1-3 or under the Guinness site.

dowlingm

The PPT and Interconnector are both valuable pieces of infrastructure - Dublin needs them both. That's not the focus of this thread though!

Skyhater

DWCommuter wrote: »

The interconnector is indeed a wonderful project, but your attitude towards the PPT is lax and misinformed. The PPT has the ability to deliver cross city capacity, small in the the short term and quite large in the long term (post interconnector removes the congestion at Connolly).

Comparisons between the two are somewhat misleading, I agree, but to right off the PPT with arguments put forward by an irresponsible rail company is nothing short of membership of the foolhardy brigade. The PPT line runs true some of the most densely populated areas of Dublin. It has a paramount use outside of the scope of the interconnector. In fact the interconnector project has now highlighted how daft IE are and indeed other so called transport experts, in relation to this route. The fact that its ignored within the scope of T21 is nothing short of an insult to tax payers. But then many of you get sucked in by the bull****.

Sorry DW, I didn't mean to knock any potential use of the PPT. I just wanted to point out that there is no Interconnector or PPT debate. Both are worthwhile projects in their own right, but the interconnector delivers far more than just link between Heuston and the City Centre.

What i meant by cross-city capacity was the loop line bridge and the connolly congestion. The PPT does not address this, but opening it and a few stations along it's alignment would be a great project.