Fakes/Museum replicas/oddities etc.

Morlar

I was recently outbid on one belt buckle (a deaths head 'Gott Mitt Uns' one) on ebay and then successful in obtaining another different one (WW1 veterans type Iron cross buckle.

Both of which turn out to be fakes/fantasy items. The one I was outbid on went for £50.stg the other one that I got (a different one) was £25.00.

When it arrived it felt and looked wrong, on closer inspection I was then able to look into it further and I came across this site ;

http://www.gott-mit-uns.de/spot_the_fakes_shop.htm

which I think is pretty useful.

The fakes tend to be advertised as 'WWI era' and the photo will include a barely visible RZM mark - making the buyer think that the seller doesnt know what he has and that its actually a WW2 issue makers marked buckle and worth a bid. There was a frenzy on the deaths head one caused by people thinking they had discovered a genuine SS/totenkopf item on sale by an unwary seller.

Both the ones I saw recently were marked RZM 4/24 (Friedrich Linden, Lüdenscheid). Anyway I thought it was interesting that both sellers (one from Ireland and one from the UK) who were both extremely knowledgeable in terms of militaria - ie they have huge selections of other WW2 items seemed to be completely ignorant and innocent of these items.

Both sellers advertised them as 'WWI era' when they both buckles had RZM marks (RZM began in 1934 far as I know).

Perhaps it may be useful to have a militaria thread on ebay fakes ? If other people see fake items on there they can mention them here so people will know to avoid. In the last month I have also seen a Ukrainian ebayer sell a WWII photo album which contained published publicity shots, in the photos you could see where the crinkle cut had been so fresh a splinter of paper was still visible in the display pictures - it doesnt get more obviously fake than that. That one sold as original for $100 + Also obviously repro medals etc.

The blanket response of 'ebay is full of crap/repros' isnt much use when there are millions of legitimate items there and the fakes should be segregated in my view. If anyone else finds any more it would be good to see/discuss them here I think.

Dr Strange

Yes, as collectors we are confronted with a flood of fakes. I'd say there are almost more fakes out there now than genuine articles.

We can have a thread on "suspicious" material from ebay but declafring items a fake requires the poster to actually prove it (links to originals, comparisons etc are permitted for that reason). So, if anyone wants to post something odd please do so in this thread but be aware that if you declare something to be a fake you will have to provide a good reason for it with back up referencing (simiolar to Morlar's post).

Also, if you own fake/museum replica yourself please post it up fopr reference in future. I will do so at some stage with the Danzig Cross 1st and 2nd class.

So I changed the title of this thread to Fakes/Museum replicas/oddities etc.

EDIT: Any unsubstantiated posts about supposedly fake items will be removed (with warnings/infractions as an option).

arnhem44

I don't think Ebay will ever change,as time passes theres more and more replica and fakes appearing in the listings which take so much longer now to browse through,even if they broke the listings into catagories and used moderators it wouldn't work for the sheer amount that is constantly been listed,I myself have been caught out with German badges in particular and I decided in the end not to buy anything like this anymore from Ebay,there policies are also stupid,has anyone ever bid on something and had the bid cancelled because its German,or this thing of not showing a bidders I.D,just think all the seller now needs is another computer and he can bid against you for something he is selling thus driving the price up,at the end of the day someone buying something has only someone elses honesty to go on,one bit of advice check the sellers feedback if available and go back on the items they've sold previously,if they are selling fakes or reproductions then the likely hood is they've sold some before already,will post up some of the badges in due course

FiSe

I have found this web page for anyone who don't need to have an "original" items:

http://www.treasurebunker.com/acatalog/rep.html

As you might know I'm after some of the German WWII awards and badges to compliment my panzer models collection, so I think this will more than do to me...
But I have a question for the experts: Are those prices of the replicas way cheaper than the prices of original items?
Iron Cross 2nd and 1st class, Panzer Asssault badge and artillery Assault badge in particular.

Dr Strange

Hi FiSe,

yes, definitely cheapo. For decoration purposes it's certainly a cheap price.

danpatjoe

Hello All,

Here is a good(ish) fake/reproduction of the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross. It is a well made example with the correct manufacture of real silver frames and a magnetic core. Marked L/12 and 800 on the reverse frame and 800 on the loop... good enough to fool someone who hadn't done their homework!

I purchased this as a reproduction piece and 'aged' it myself (for no other reason other than to make it more visually appealing to my taste).
These are quite expensive for repro items at £150GBP for the cross without the case, but a heck of a lot closer to the original than the common one piece cast copies. It's really just a filler piece in my collection as I know I will never be able to afford the real thing which sells anywhere from €6000 plus.

Morlar

danpatjoe wrote: »

I purchased this as a reproduction piece and 'aged' it myself (for no other reason other than to make it more visually appealing to my taste).

Hi - what steps did you take to age the RK ? I think it might be useful to know what to look for in this field* when reviewing pieces that are sold as legitimate items.

** not that I buy RK's too often either but you know what I mean.

danpatjoe

Morlar wrote: »

Hi - what steps did you take to age the RK ? I think it might be useful to know what to look for in this field* when reviewing pieces that are sold as legitimate items.

** not that I buy RK's too often either but you know what I mean.

Hi Morlar,

I speeded up the patination process by oxidising the silver to achieve that pleasing dark tone while keeping the shine. I used a very simple and quick method involving hard boiled eggs (for their sulphur content).

The case was aged by using a very fine sanding block to 'wear' the surfaces and corners and to remove that new looking shine. The internal staining is a mixture of tea/coffee (also on the ribbon to a lesser extent).
Finely ground pencil lead/graphite was dropped onto the cross while in position in the case and then pressed against the cushion on the lid to create that 'imprint' of the cross against the white satin.

Again, all of this was done as an experiment and for nothing more than 'improving' the look of a reproduction piece to my eyes.
Don't worry, this will not be showing up on ebay or elsewhere as an 'out of the woodwork' find with a low buy it now price! (unlike all of the other aged RK fakes that appear there!).

Dr Strange

Wow, danpatjoe, you are a second Konrad Kujau --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Kujau

Morlar

Thats pretty cool - the pencil filings idea is a new one on me. The fine file to age the case is definitely something to look out for.

PS I have heard other stories of people aging faked cloth items using less pleasant liquids than coffee !

SpitfireIV

Morlar wrote: »

PS I have heard other stories of people aging faked cloth items using less pleasant liquids than coffee !

I've heard of ways of repro swords being aged, particularly those coming from China using even less pleasent liquids (or solids? :eek:) than your coffee alternative

Avoid any 'antique' swords on e-bay that are coming from China!

danpatjoe

Yes, I've heard of these methods... if I am not mistaken, I believe they involved nitric acids

However, I wanted to keep this medal.. without worrying about the odour!

danpatjoe

Here are a few fake EK2's to be aware of. These are all very well made with correct 3 piece construction and magnetic core, and have fooled countless collectors.

The first is the classic 'Floch'. This example is marked '5' on the ring, but I have also seen these with a '49' marking and also unmarked examples. Note the distinctive 3 on the 1813 date.





The next one is a more recent fake believed to originate in Latvia. They seem to have found a new way of selling their fake RK's... they change around the suspension loop and sell them as the rare oversize 'Übergroße'.
These have very distinctive curved beading (like the fake 'Rounder' RK) at the centre with mocked up crosshatching.





Finally, a fake that has been around for quite a while, and has been purchased by many, many unwary collectors as a genuine wartime cross. This IMO is one of the best fake EK2's out there and is quite difficult to spot.
This is the infamous '333' fake, (also seen marked '666' or '999' and unfortunately countless unmarked examples exist too).
I believe these surfaced in the early 1980's with a story that a hoard of them had been found in a factory in Strasbourg where they had been made during the war. (There were only 2 firms that produced wartime EK's in Strasbourg: J.J. Stahl '122', and Beck, Hassinger & Co. '123').
These fakes are so good that many people who have been fooled by them refuse to believe that they are not genuine wartime crosses.

marcsignal

found this website which might be of interest to collectors.


http://www.wehrmachtmilitaria.co.uk/home.php

Morlar

marcsignal wrote: »

found this website which might be of interest to collectors.


http://www.wehrmachtmilitaria.co.uk/home.php

Cheers - that one is new to me.

danpatjoe

Here's another fake EK2, this time it's an attempt at the rarer 'Round 3' type.

This one looks like it was a genuine standard second class cross that someone opened and replaced the core with this fake one. It also has a fake L/13 stamp on the ring. The core is non-magnetic, and whoever did this made a right mess of soldering the frames back together, not to mention the extremely sloppy job of re-attaching the suspension ring.