Question about Olympics

Pride Fighter

As a casual watcher of equine events I am surprised that Ireland does not frequently medal in the olympic equestrian events. With the quality of horses and riders we produce we should get at least a medal per games. Why are we so poor at dressage? If we were as good at that as we were at cross country/showjumping our teams would be in with a chance at team gold come every 4 years. Any thoughts/

We don't have the same facilities here for training at the elite international cross country level. I don't know about the dressage, its just something that we were never worldbeaters at. Our showjumping, however, is excellent and we do pull well above our weight in that.

fits

I would actually like to hear peoples thoughts as to why we are so poor at dressage. Is this a problem that goes right down to pony club level? Is that where we should be looking to improve it?

Irish bred horses are some of the best in the world at eventing so its not the horses that are the issue, its the riders.

skink

as regards showjumping at the olympics, there is a good article in the irish field with lt col ned campion, about how tough the olympics is.

fits

fits wrote: »

I would actually like to hear peoples thoughts as to why we are so poor at dressage. Is this a problem that goes right down to pony club level? Is that where we should be looking to improve it?

Irish bred horses are some of the best in the world at eventing so its not the horses that are the issue, its the riders.

This is true - we have some excellent horses all right. I just don't think we have the facilities for Irish riders to become world beaters. We have nothing equivalent to facilities such as Badminton, Samur etc. Until we get these, we won't be on equal footing with other nations.

fits

But is it the xc that we're not competing on a level playing field with other countries? Or dressage? It appears to me that its dressage that is the problem.

Wasnt the young eventing horse competition established to go some way towards rectifying this issue?

togster

I don't think it has anything to do with facilities or lack thereof. We have some great courses here and the irish often perform strongly cross country and showjumping. I think it's because at an early age irish riders concentrate way to much on jumping. imo we do not emphasise dressage enough. It goes to pony club level. How many 12 year olds know how to ride a pony in balance , forward and with rythym? Yet many of them have no problem flying around the place jumping big fences! We need to put more emphasis on correct flatwork form an early age and invest more time and money in teaching youngsters the basics. We do not in general have a high standard of dressage in this country compared to the likes of germany and great britain. If you take a look at dressage results in "pure" dressage you will see that the top nations are often the likes of germany, UK, holland and france. Dressage is big in these countries. How many irish dressage riders compete at grand prix level. The eventing sector in these countries can draw on the expertise of home produced dreassage riders and trainers to train eventers and event riders.

Another factor is often the fact that many of our top horses are sold abroad. You will often here of irish bred horses being sold to the continent only to start winning all round them. Why? Because they are good trainers of horses on the flat. They understand the importance of flatwork.

togster

fits wrote: »

But is it the xc that we're not competing on a level playing field with other countries? Or dressage? It appears to me that its dressage that is the problem.

Wasnt the young eventing horse competition established to go some way towards rectifying this issue?

It's dressage is the problem. People often fail to understand that without it you can't have a succesful round cross country these days. As there has been a shift during the 90's towards more technical fences.

The young event horse championship was set up to "showcase" irish horses. Like it or not it is an advertisement ploy. And many are bought by foreign investors. I know of 3 curtrently in Sweden. One top mare and 2 top geldings.

fits

I would tend to agree with you togster.

I think the standard of dressage and flatwork in general is very poor in Ireland, and underemphasised.

togster

It's terrible tbh. Look at Sweden for example. 5th after cross country.
By no means have they such a long history with horses, or can they (in general) ride like the irish over poles or cross country (they have no hunting).
Their horses (swedish warmblood) are not in the same league as the irish horse at all. But they have a huge dressage competitive scene here. It translates into eventing.

No we have all the ingredients for GOLD medals, minus the interest/history in dressage/flatwork- Sad really.

fits

That said, I do believe Zaraba when he says a lack of 4* facilities is a problem too.

Is there any 4* competition in Ireland?

togster

No there isn't any. Badminton is just across the water. Many British/Scottish riders travel further that we would have to. And i think at least 2 of our team combinations have competed there (Niall and Austin). We do have several 3* competitions here. Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't 3 of the 4 go clear in Bejing? I read the report and i think the atmosphere or screens upset some of the horses. The armies horse won tatersalls 3* recently beating many top british riders so the screens probably upset him. He is capable of doing a good test.

However we need to ask ourselves why do germany and the UK and australia consistently put in good performances. It comes down to dressage imo and Zarabra is right, lack of big competition experience might be a contributing factor, not the principal one though.

Alibear

Dressage has never been Ireland's strong point, and I doubt that will change any time soon. A lot of Irish International riders are based in the UK mainly because there are more higher level national and international events over there, and because there are better training oppurtunities.

A lot of younger riders at PC and even EI level think that dressage is boring and pointless (which it certainly isn't as it's the basis of good jumping), so they tend to ignore their flatwork.

There are no 4* competitions in Ireland - There are only six 4* events in the world. In the UK there's Burghley and Badminton, in France there's Pau (only obtained 4* status last year), in Germany there's Luhmuhlen, in the US there's Kentucky, and in Australia there's Adelaide.

Alibear

I should also add that the Olympics is only a 3* level event.

I would agree with Togster. Dressage is shunted aside here and we are really paying for it in competitions like this.

You take the UK or Germany, they have 4* events which does give them an advantage, but they also have equivalent dressage events at all levels. We dont.

Alibear

Zaraba - Dressage definitely isn't a big thing in Ireland compared to SJAI or EI. Ireland has never hosted an International dressage event, but an application has been sent to the FEI to host a CDI at Necarne Castle next May. Hopefully it will be accepted, as it would be a great boost for dressage over here.

Alibear

Alibear wrote: »

I should also add that the Olympics is only a 3* level event.

Yes but having a 4* event to train on will raise the standard. If you can compete well that level, then the 3* will pose less hassle. This is the difference between being 'good' and being a 'worldbeater' which you will have to be to take home medals in the olympics.

skink

A woamn i know is now going to germany for dressage training, as she has gone as far as she can here, although she competes on one warmblood and is bringing on a young irish horse

personaltrainer

I dont think ireland need all that much training in the cross country and showjumping I mean 4 out of 5 clears cross country! Our dressage is terrible obviously we have to take into consideration that things happen for example at the olympics Geoffs and Patricias horses spooking at the Tvs. Geoff was a real contender for a medel after his fantastic display at Tatts. Dressage training is definitely needed over her, improve that and the medals will start coming in....hopefully Denis Lynch will be bringing somrthing home

Alibear

Alibear wrote: »

I should also add that the Olympics is only a 3* level event.

Olympics is a 4* event.

A_M101

IMO it's just that we're taking a while to catch up. Dressage is only starting to catch on in Ireland in the last few decades. The structure isn't really in place to support it.

Alibear

Deleted User wrote: »

Olympics is a 4* event.

No, it isn't. It USED to be a 4* event up until a couple of years ago when they changed it to 3* level to allow other nations who may not have 4* eventers the opportunity to compete.

napoles

Alibear wrote: »

No, it isn't. It USED to be a 4* event up until a couple of years ago when they changed it to 3* level to allow other nations who may not have 4* eventers the opportunity to compete.

She's right - Olympic eventing is 3*.
With regard to the argument that Ireland not having a 4* event causing them to be at a disadvantage, I'm sorry but I have to disagree. As Togster pointed out, many of the Scottish eventers probably have to travel further to compete at Badminton than the Irish riders and it never stopped Ian Stark. Also, you don't use an event like Badminton to train on - you don't go there unless you are able for it - it is a pinacle to aim for, not to use as a training ground. Also, balloting will keep out those horses who are not experienced enough for it.
It is the training at grass roots level that needs to be addressed with regard to the flatwork. I know Eventing Ireland and Ginny are working very hard to improve this, but it's not going to happen overnight. We are way behind the rest of the top eventing nations in our dressage and that has to be addressed. As has been pointed out, we have the best horses in the world AND I believe some of the best riders - we just need to really work on the training.
Mind you - in Bejing, the dressage arenas were VERY spooky - apparently William Fox Pitt came down his first centre line on three tracks.

Kamili

fits wrote: »

I would actually like to hear peoples thoughts as to why we are so poor at dressage. Is this a problem that goes right down to pony club level? Is that where we should be looking to improve it?

I think it would stem back to pony club as show jumping is something I always remember being pushed more and dressage didn't really feature at all!

I only really learned of dressage as I got older, and although I enjoy it, its not something that I would be very good at at all, whereas I feel I've been show jumping for years and am waaaay more confident at it.

I did compete for Ireland years ago at the SNRC, on a student level and it was actually embarrassing how crap the Irish team was at Dressage, yet we were fantastic at the showjumping!
After all flatwork is the basis of jumping!

I think alot of people would be more aware of the SJAI competitions too and Dressage Ireland isn't as well subscribed to, although I think that is slowly changing.

napoles

Kamili wrote: »

I think it would stem back to pony club as show jumping is something I always remember being pushed more and dressage didn't really feature at all!

I only really learned of dressage as I got older, and although I enjoy it, its not something that I would be very good at at all, whereas I feel I've been show jumping for years and am waaaay more confident at it.

I did compete for Ireland years ago at the SNRC, on a student level and it was actually embarrassing how crap the Irish team was at Dressage, yet we were fantastic at the showjumping!
After all flatwork is the basis of jumping!

I think alot of people would be more aware of the SJAI competitions too and Dressage Ireland isn't as well subscribed to, although I think that is slowly changing.

I wouldn't use Student competitions as a yardstick though... I have competed at Student Intervarsities and my mum has judged Student Nations Cups and from our experience they are not taken in the same light as affiliated dressage competitions - they are more fun events and a chance for students from different countries to meet up. Correct me if I'm wrong here - but that was my experience.

I have competed for Ireland in young rider dressage and done some training in Holland, Belgium and the UK. I would certainly agree that Ireland has a long way to go and in my opinion, dressage in this country is going through a real slump at the moment with very little competitions taking place and low numbers of competitors. It will always be a hard sport to market as you need to know what you are looking for to watch it with any understanding, as opposed to showjumping where it's easy to understand the rules.

Alibear

Alibear wrote: »

No, it isn't. It USED to be a 4* event up until a couple of years ago when they changed it to 3* level to allow other nations who may not have 4* eventers the opportunity to compete.

http://www.eventingireland.com/about_eventing/?itemid=528 says otherwise, however they could be wrong.

napoles

napoles wrote: »

She's right - Olympic eventing is 3*.
With regard to the argument that Ireland not having a 4* event causing them to be at a disadvantage, I'm sorry but I have to disagree. As Togster pointed out, many of the Scottish eventers probably have to travel further to compete at Badminton than the Irish riders and it never stopped Ian Stark. Also, you don't use an event like Badminton to train on - you don't go there unless you are able for it - it is a pinacle to aim for, not to use as a training ground. Also, balloting will keep out those horses who are not experienced enough for it.
It is the training at grass roots level that needs to be addressed with regard to the flatwork. I know Eventing Ireland and Ginny are working very hard to improve this, but it's not going to happen overnight. We are way behind the rest of the top eventing nations in our dressage and that has to be addressed. As has been pointed out, we have the best horses in the world AND I believe some of the best riders - we just need to really work on the training.
Mind you - in Bejing, the dressage arenas were VERY spooky - apparently William Fox Pitt came down his first centre line on three tracks.

Any rider who has competed at a 4* level and done well will have an advantage over one which has competed only at a 3* level. I am not saying that this is the first thing which needs to change (improving dressage would be number 1) however the higher the level which Irish athletes are able to compete at, the higher the bar will be raised.

napoles

Deleted User wrote: »

Any rider who has competed at a 4* level and done well will have an advantage over one which has competed only at a 3* level. I am not saying that this is the first thing which needs to change (improving dressage would be number 1) however the higher the level which Irish athletes are able to compete at, the higher the bar will be raised.

Of course - I agree completely with that. But that is not stopping the Irish riders competing at 4* events. Most of our top eventers pop over to the UK regularly to compete anyway, so (logistically speaking) to go to Badminton is not that big a trek.

My argument is that I don't think a lack of a 4* in this country is holding them back, because the UK is so close and has two 4*'s in Badminton and Burghley. We are actually at a bit of an advantage over some other countries, geographically speaking, when you consider that those two events are actually so close to us.

Kamili

napoles wrote: »

I wouldn't use Student competitions as a yardstick though... I have competed at Student Intervarsities and my mum has judged Student Nations Cups and from our experience they are not taken in the same light as affiliated dressage competitions - they are more fun events and a chance for students from different countries to meet up. Correct me if I'm wrong here - but that was my experience.

Yes you are correct, and I was in no way using it as a yardstick, simply just saying that is was embarrassing how utterly useless the irish team was at dressage compared to the standard of the other riders from other countries.

Having also competed at Student intervarsities the standard of dressage is greatly improving, especially since I first started, I did notice a huge difference in the standard between my first year and my final year, alot of the good dressage riders were foreign at first and then it changed as time went on.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

Seifer

Just from casually watching the olympics, what does the rider actually do that anyone with a few months training couldn't do?
And do equestrian folk think that the nationality should apply to both horse and rider, i.e. Irish rider riding Irish horse? Surely in a sport where at the very least it's 50/50 in terms of responsibility, both competitiors should be of the nation they're representing. If not, why not?

togster

Seifer wrote: »

Just from casually watching the olympics, what does the rider actually do that anyone with a few months training couldn't do?

Alot.

Seifer wrote: »

And do equestrian folk think that the nationality should apply to both horse and rider, i.e. Irish rider riding Irish horse? Surely in a sport where at the very least it's 50/50 in terms of responsibility, both competitiors should be of the nation they're representing. If not, why not?

Because it's not the animal olympics.

MDFM

Seifer wrote: »

Just from casually watching the olympics, what does the rider actually do that anyone with a few months training couldn't do?
And do equestrian folk think that the nationality should apply to both horse and rider, i.e. Irish rider riding Irish horse? Surely in a sport where at the very least it's 50/50 in terms of responsibility, both competitiors should be of the nation they're representing. If not, why not?

As with all disciplines in the Olympics, it takes a hell of a lot more time than a 'few months' training before anyone can reach Olympic standards or be good enough to be considered for selection. Or maybe you think otherwise?

fits

Seifer wrote: »

Just from casually watching the olympics, what does the rider actually do that anyone with a few months training couldn't do?

Oh dear...:( I dont even know where to start with that.

Take showjumping for example. The rider will spend years training the horse to respond to subtle commands. The rider can dictate exactly the horses speed and length of stride. Also the athletic ability of a horse needs to be trained much like that of a gymnast.

Riding a horse may look easy, but it is deceptively so. You need to be really strong in the core and legs to ride properly. Riders actually control the horse a lot with their 'seat' or core. It is very physical indeed. Definitely not just 'sitting there'.

And do equestrian folk think that the nationality should apply to both horse and rider, i.e. Irish rider riding Irish horse? Surely in a sport where at the very least it's 50/50 in terms of responsibility, both competitiors should be of the nation they're representing. If not, why not?

Its not 50/50 in terms of responsibility. The riding and training of a horse is 90% of the reason why it can get to a top level. Plus, medals are only awarded to humans.

Seifer

MDFM wrote:

Or maybe you think otherwise?

I don't think anything. Just from looking at it it doesn't look like the rider does a whole lot. They steer the horse and tell it to speed up / slow down but the horse does all the actual physical stuff i.e. jumping the giant fences.
So was wondering if someone could give me a basic overview of what makes it difficult?

MDFM wrote:

Because it's not the animal olympics.

I'd like to see them jump those fences without their animal.

fits

Seifer, questions about the sport are welcome here, but be careful of your tone.

If just a few months training could get you an olympic medal then everyone would be at it. Use your head.

Seifer

Ok fits got in and answered a lot of my questions.
I always thought the horse's trainer and rider were different people. So that's not the case?

fits

Seifer wrote: »

Ok fits got in and answered a lot of my questions.
I always thought the horse's trainer and rider were different people. So that's not the case?

That would be true in horse racing in most cases (which is more a test of fitness than anything else).

In showjumping and dressage the rider would do all the training (completely different skillset), with occasional help from expert eyes on the ground.

Seifer

fits wrote:

Take showjumping for example. The rider will spend years training the horse to respond to subtle commands.

Would these commands be universal or unique to the personal trainer? Like could one rider ride a horse someone else had trained?

fits wrote:

You need to be really strong in the core and legs to ride properly. ... It is very physical indeed.

So do they do gym work and other fitness training on top of actual riding?

fits

Seifer wrote: »

Would these commands be universal or unique to the personal trainer? Like could one rider ride a horse someone else had trained?

Pretty unique really. There would be a crossover to a certain extent, but every horse and rider combo have their own intricacies and styles.

So do they do gym work and other fitness training on top of actual riding?

yes. But riding itself is fitness training. functional training I believe they call it.

AngelicRaindrop

Seifer wrote: »

Would these commands be universal or unique to the personal trainer? Like could one rider ride a horse someone else had trained?


So do they do gym work and other fitness training on top of actual riding?

It really depends on the horse, i trained my mare from the beginning, she got to grade B with me ( the highest grade is A), i had an injury and a friend jumped her in 90cm competition, she got eliminated for refusing to jump. she jumped for me because the bond was there, i could read her like the back of my hand

i have a gelding here that would jump the moon for anyone uncomplicated as hell

most of the training riders do is riding, you have to remember the riders at top level could be riding 8hrs a day, on different horses. some do gym work on top of it but the riding its self is great for keeping fit

Seifer

fits wrote:

Its not 50/50 in terms of responsibility. The riding and training of a horse is 90% of the reason why it can get to a top level.

To come at this from another angle, why do Irish riders continue to drug their horses when from what your saying it would be more beneficial to drug themselves? [/tongue firmly in cheek]
Hope they cut the funding to zero for this disgrace of an event.

fits

Nothing has been proven and noone found guilty yet.

jhegarty

fits wrote: »

Nothing has been proven and noone found guilty yet.

what does happen if they are later cleared after not been able to compete ?


is it tough luck ?

fits

Who knows? It doesnt look good for them at the moment anyway.

Even if it was accidental, its still a breach of the rules.

k_d

Report posts if you are unhappy with them rather than getting into it on thread.

Fits

Arion Online

If we could just send our horses to rehab and keep them away from drugs everything would be ok

byhookorbycrook

as to why..well, look at the eventing horses that were in the medals.A huge percentage of them are Irish-bred, there is not the money in eventing in Ireland to keep them here. Our show-jumpers spend lots of time travelling with lesser grade horses to lesser shows, just to make ends meet.