The relationship between paying for Recording and paying for Promotion

PaulBrewer

This post has come from ideas sprung up on the Music Production Forum.

I'm a while in the business and have a seen a zillion bands come and, mostly, go.

One of the (many) inexplicable things bands do is gladly pay 3 or 5 or 7 Grand for 'promotion', but rarely spend that sort of money on recording.

What's that about? - is it unclear how idiotic that is?

What IS the thought process behind it I wonder?

all the stars

not sure how relevant but:

even the most talentless pug's can do great if heavily and well promoted///

im sure we all know many examples of this...

Savman

Careful Paul...venturing outside of MP can result in nosebleeds :pac:

Answer to the question: bands are silly.

PaulBrewer

all the stars wrote: »

not sure how relevant but:

even the most talentless pug's can do great if heavily and well promoted///

im sure we all know many examples of this...

I know what you mean - but 3/5/7K isn't 'heavily' promoted.

PaulBrewer

Savman wrote: »

Careful Paul...venturing outside of MP can result in nosebleeds :pac:

I'll take me beating!:pac:

Neo#

Just out of curiosity, in your experience how much do bands usually pay for recording, say a 4 track EP? And how much would it cost to do it properly? And what is involved in say 7 grands worth of promotion? I know myself that if you do any sort of recording on the cheap and fast then youre just going to get crap. SO you are basically wasting the small amount you spent!

af_thefragile

all the stars wrote: »

not sure how relevant but:

even the most talentless pug's can do great if heavily and well promoted///

im sure we all know many examples of this...

Yup, just make people believe that your music is brilliant and you're the new coolest band in town. A few pics of you on the front covers of music magazines, a few 5-start totally "unbiased" reviews of you in a few music magazines and there you go. You're the next big thing with zero talent!!

But yeah, artists don't seem to see the importance of a good production lately. As they focus more on playing live than on producing a good album to sell. They're mostly hoping some AnR guy seeing their live performance might get impressed and sign then up to a label n then the label will take care of the recording n production for them...

hexagramer

........and then decide to become complete assholes and think that they really trully AREE the best in town lol

and the amazing bit: this is the way of MANY MANY bands. tsk tsk.

well im glad i got myself out of that hole, im glad to say i spent over about 2 grands worth on a protools maudio projectmix, hs80 speakers and a well capable powerfull self built computer, aswell as great mics of course.

this may be worth NOT going to the studio cause then u can do all sorts of stuff to your music if you want it sounding great

all the stars

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I know what you mean - but 3/5/7K isn't 'heavily' promoted.

well, 7 grand is a lot when you don't have the price of few pints

i'd like 7 grand. Maybe i'll start busking. :cool:

all the stars

hexagramer wrote: »

........and then decide to become complete assholes and think that they really trully AREE the best in town lol

and the amazing bit: this is the way of MANY MANY bands. tsk tsk.

well im glad i got myself out of that hole, im glad to say i spent over about 2 grands worth on a protools maudio projectmix, hs80 speakers and a well capable powerfull self built computer, aswell as great mics of course.

this may be worth NOT going to the studio cause then u can do all sorts of stuff to your music if you want it sounding great

Yup, have all my own stuff too at home - pity i cant use it properly :rolleyes: Now i just need to become a sound engineer/ producer / computery person and im all set!

PaulBrewer

all the stars wrote: »

well, 7 grand is a lot when you don't have the price of few pints

i'd like 7 grand. Maybe i'll start busking. :cool:

7 grand IS a lot - but not in terms of promotion.
My point is , don't promote unless you've something worthwhile promoting i.e. a few nicely recorded tunes!

PaulBrewer

Neo# wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, in your experience how much do bands usually pay for recording, say a 4 track EP? And how much would it cost to do it properly? And what is involved in say 7 grands worth of promotion? I know myself that if you do any sort of recording on the cheap and fast then youre just going to get crap. SO you are basically wasting the small amount you spent!

Well there are SO many variables - there's no 'usually' .

My experience with promotion is just seeing a few local bands humming and haahing about a couple of grand bill and not paying the bill for 2 months - and then lashing 4 grand on Promotion upfront for, as far as I could see - nothing resultswise.

Not myself you understand, my studio owning days are over!

all the stars

PaulBrewer wrote: »

7 grand IS a lot - but not in terms of promotion.
My point is , don't promote unless you've something worthwhile promoting i.e. a few nicely recorded tunes!

your right...


www.myspace.com/oraclegurl

jtsuited

I genuinely see where you are coming from Paul, but I can't really think of any great bands that have been let down significantly by a poorly recorded demo.

Most bands are still sort of living in the 'make an EP, get a record deal, make records in posh expensive studios paid by the label' mindset.

And the phenomenon you speak of here is a result of that mindset IMO.

Unsigned bands are on limited budgets and can justify (perhaps incorrectly) recording cheaply and spending the saved money on a ridiculous amount of promotion.
It's part of an ego thing I guess, because if they spend all their money on recording in good studios, they won't be able to think they're the next big thing because they get a good review in HotPress.

It's a trade-off that unfortunately we have to live with, what with there being no '****-filter' in the form of independent labels willing to put money behind bands to record nice records.

The absence of strong independent labels in Irish rock music that can afford to have their bands record in top-quality studios is the real problem here.

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

Most bands are still sort of living in the 'make an EP, get a record deal, make records in posh expensive studios paid by the label' mindset.

And the phenomenon you speak of here is a result of that mindset IMO.

What ? Excuse me ??
Myself and JT agreeing on something?
Must be something to do with the Olympics .....

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Must be something to do with the Olympics .....

lol,

but on a more serious note, I think that the problem here is born out of bands being more focused on 'making it' than making good records.

The figures you have pointed out really emphasise that.

Unfortunately, if a band are doing it 'to make it' in a careerist sense, they are of course going to do silly things like badly record their stuff and spend all the money on promotion.

So I think that the problem you speak of is really a by-product of people having more interest in playing Slane, than on producing good art.

A while ago, myself and yourself had a disagreement (surprisingly enough!) about musicians producing music as a vehicle to their career as opposed to making it for music's sake (or something along those lines).
You said there was nothing wrong with ambition (which is true). but it's when the ambition is more about 'becoming famous' than making good records with careful detail and beautiful nuances, that ambition is the mother of all feck-ups.

I am sick of getting various bands' EP's (long story about why i get them) and receiving with it a big fancy 'presspack' all about how they're going to be huge etc.
Then on goes the record and not only is the music decidedly average, the recording sounds cheap, flat and bland (which while having something to do with the equipment, comes more down to the level of talent in the studio).

And the reason for all this? Because the bands are not artists. They are attempted rockstars.
And then

Seziertisch

First up, a lot bands aren't aware of the potential of a decent recording and don't understand why you would spend the time/money on achieving it.

It really involves a lot of work and effort on the micro level for the macro to succeed. A great sounding record (ignoring the quality of the songs or musicianship or whatever) generally requires decent gear on both a band and studio level as well as individuals who know what they are looking for out of said gear, and how to achieve it.

I have heard recordings done by music technology students using a desk that was worth a couple of hundred grand new and some top quality mics in a decent environment. The recordings were fine but the fact that the gear being recorded was kind of s*#t was really apparent. All that body and presence and air and fidelity and whatever made it hideously obvious that the sound was flawed at the source (and not in a charming way). this situation wasn't helped by the fact that in most cases the material being recorded didn't do much to offset sonic short comings. In such cases a modest bedroom setup would have been able to produce similar enough results.

Presuming that someone involved has the foresight and awareness to see what might be problematic about a particular sound, rectifying this requires a share of experimenting and a share of troubleshooting to iron it out (unless someone is very experienced) It could be the the cables being used, it could be an amp setting, it could be a mic position (where it might be only centimetre(s) out), it could be a certain mic/preamp combination, it could be the position of the player/instrument/amp in the room, it could be the room fundamentally... The list is endless. Someone needs to be aware of all this and know how to potentially fix it, and more importantly they need to have the focus and time to pursue these details. This is a very costly activity on studio time, and one which requires the support of the person paying for the time or else someone in the studio who really has it together and can sort out this stuff almost instantly.

This person who really has it together is not there a lot of times and the band are unwilling to pay for someone to spend half-a-day sorting out little things, so these things never get sorted, which means that in many cases a well-executed home recording with modest gear, the right people and more importantly enough time to get it right can exceed a studio production.

It is also the case that there isn't an abundance of great (and affordable) producers/studios in Ireland. By affordable, I mean if a band are paying for the recordings themselves. The cost versus quality of the recording (particularly considering the above) doesn't make sense a lot of the time.

For $1250 if we were in Chicago you could get Electrical Audio with Steve Albini producing/engineering for a day. Going by the current exchange rate that would work out at around €800.

I would imagine that Steve Albini has his craft down in terms of getting great sounds. There would be far less time lost in diagnosing and solving little issues with the sound etc. He has experimented extensively in recording techniques and would know what would and wouldn't work.What an engineer/producer at his level could decide upon based on intuition/experience, with a lesser engineer/producer this might take a couple of hours.

Whatever about getting you a similar quality recording studio in Dublin (there are a few places that would be almost as well equipped) there is no way you would get a producer of Steve Albini's level and a great studio for that money. Also, in terms of producers/engineers around town there is nobody of Steve Albini's quality available really for almost any money and if there is/are (I can't think of anyone) they are probably going to cost a hell of a lot more. I would imagine that going into the studio with Steve Albini for the day with reasonable gear and a well rehearsed band would mean at the end of the day you would have a great sounding recording. In Dublin, you might have a decent sounding recording for the money but that is in no way guaranteed. Another downside to this situation is that engineers/producers won't improve/develop their craft unless they take the time to do so, and it seems that in a lot of cases for this to happen the band would be expected to pay for it (which they probably don't want to) so engineers/producers get better at the things they know already, pick up little things along the way, but don't necessarily push themselves to be real contenders.

This situation is reflected in the fact that most bands that get signed in Ireland and get a bit of cash behind them go abroad to make their record or get someone in from abroad to make it here.

af_thefragile

Hitting the nail right on the head there jtsuited!

This is exactly the problem right now. Music has become an occupation. Lately i've been seeing more and more bands/musicians filling their occupation as "musician". Its all bout making it big. Chasing the big rockstar dream. Becoming famous, getting laid, living the rock n roll lifestyle!

And in the midst of all of this the key element is missing. Art.
Music is no longer a form of art to express your ideas and emotions. Its a vehicle to gain success. There's no heart involved anymore. There is no personal touch of an artists expression. Its like a cheap imitation of Jack Vettriano's "The Singing Butler". One that you could buy in a store for a few quid. It lacks the million dollar authenticity, intensity and innovation of the original piece.
I see my music as art. The way it should be. Immaculate, precise, spectacular, innovative and perfect. The complete artistic package with heart and soul. Thats art. As a piece of art is meant to be sole and not have any other purpose than art itself.
No drive for money, no motivation for fame. Just a picturesque scene flowing out through the artist's desire. A perfect harmony of color, diagrams, ideas, feelings and emotions. A human instinct of harmony, balance and rhythm. From mysterious to the imaginative, from real to the symbolic. Whether it be something from the obscene or the contemporary. It need to be thought provoking and awe inspiring. Thats the true essence of art and thats how music should be. A form of art.

This has been the problem with most modern day musicians lately. They don't understand the concept of music as art. The essence what made composers like Mozart, Beethoven and Rachmaninov spend their whole lifetime trying to put together the perfect blend of harmony, emotion and rhythm. Music is not just about some rhythm, notes and lyrics. Its about creation.

And you're right when you say most people aren't artists anymore. They're just attempted rockstars. Trying to put together something vague that might sell. It sure does sell but just like a postcard from the local news agent, thats all it does. It does the job.
A mere pathetic attempt to create something in the name of music. Ends up with a lousy postcard to show off to their peers and mates.
Its not Van Gough, its not Dali. Its just a cheap 50c postcard which will have its share for a while and wither away in the sea of ordinary. While maybe there will remain one which is rather a painting that will stand the test of time and be amazed and admired by generations to come.

So its all not bad news. Its just nature's way of separating the extraordinary from the rest. The true from the imitation. The Mozart, Beethoven, Rachmaninov, Elvis, Beatles, David Bowie, Aphex Twin, Nine Inch Nails, Tool, Radiohead and Thrice from the rest*. People who like to step out of the ordinary and try out something of their own. Pushing boundaries, pushing creativity, creating art.

Wow, i really did get a lot carried away there...!

*thats just my opinions. Many of you may beg to differ but i'm just stating an expression.


Oh and one thing i'ld like to add about crap and cheap low quality gear. If you're creative enough. You can create something absolutely amazing out of the most basic equipment.

Think how punk music developed. A bunch of half decent musicians with ****ty gear trying to make some noise and get themselves herd. They made those simple cord structure songs, ****ty guitar tones and lo-fi production their signature and defining tone. A tone that would be herd everywhere and evolve a whole new music culture for the next two decades! So you don't need to be recording in million dollar studios to creating the perfect tracks. A true artist makes use of whatever resources he's got to create something amazing out of it.
Thrice recorded and produced their latest 4 disk experimental album "The Alchemy Index" completely by themselves in the vocalists home on a Pro Tools system. And that album is absolutely breath taking if you give it a listen...

PaulBrewer

Seziertisch wrote: »

Another downside to this situation is that engineers/producers won't improve/develop their craft unless they take the time to do so, and it seems that in a lot of cases for this to happen the band would be expected to pay for it (which they probably don't want to) so engineers/producers get better at the things they know already, pick up little things along the way, but don't necessarily push themselves to be real contenders.

.

Good point !

Though I know of 2 bands who went on the Albini Holiday - the
head spent most of the time on the phone! ( or so I was told - I wasn't there)

Ya gets what ya pays for!

Seziertisch

af_thefragile wrote: »

Oh and one thing i'ld like to add about crap and cheap low quality gear. If you're creative enough. You can create something absolutely amazing out of the most basic equipment.

Think how punk music developed. A bunch of half decent musicians with ****ty gear trying to make some noise and get themselves herd. They made those simple cord structure songs, ****ty guitar tones and lo-fi production their signature and defining tone. A tone that would be herd everywhere and evolve a whole new music culture for the next two decades!

... ahhh, no. Which punk bands are you talking about exactly? They generally had good bordering on great gear. It might have been pawnshop or whatever at the time but that self same gear is in a lot of cases nowadays highly prized vintage equipment, and not just for its age or collectability of whatever but for the sheer quality of it.

The Stooges - with Ron Asheton on guitar, somewhat cheaper department store guitars (in the early days at any rate) Teisco Del Ray or the likes through late 60's/early 70's Marshall stacks. With James Williamson, a Les Paul Custom into Marshall stacks or a Vox AC 30. I've played some of those "cheaper" guitars and asides from them not being exactly super cheap nowadays, they definitely have a good bordering on great sound, infinitely better than the cheapest new guitar you'll buy today.

The New York Dolls - Les Paul's, Gretsches through Marshall stacks.

The Sex Pistols - stole all their gear, just look at the Filth and the Fury documentary. Really good stuff. Steve Jones, a Les Paul into a Fender Twin.

The Ramones - The cheapest it got was a Mosrite Ventures guitar, really nice, into Marshall stacks again.

I could go on. Even up to 80's hardcore punk Greg Ginn might have used some what were essentially P.A amps with his Dan Armstrong Lucite guitar but there was nothing particularly cheap about it, unconventional yes, cheap no.

All of this was recorded to tape. Studios were expensive at the time. They had expensive gear which couldn't be afforded by a home recordist. They had compressors/eqs etc. which if new today would cost many, many times what the cheapest digital compressor or eq would. A maintenance of this tradition is the principle behind Toe Rag studios in London (Elephant by the White Stripes was recorded there). The gear may be all vintage, and it may be limited because of its age, but it was by no means "cheap" at the time and indeed to buy it now second hand, you would be looking at a not insubstantial sum.

Interestingly a lot of the other bands you mention use and are known for using good bordering on amazing gear. Radiohead and Tool definitely stand out in this.

In the past, "cheap" gear was in a lot of cases actually some of the best ever made. When punk started you could buy a lot of gear (instruments, microphones etc.) for a couple of thousand dollars which would cost a couple of hundred thousand today. Don't get caught up in the romance of the notion of recording with all cheap gear, it will sound cheap. Particularly, if the source you are recording is not up to scratch nowadays no amount of plug-ins or cheap outboard gear or whatever will get it sounding right or beyond just about acceptable.

The Strokes first e.p. was recorded in their rehearsal studio directly from the p.a there. People said this sounds great, goes to show you don't need expensive gear... well not if a load of post production (sorting out frequencies and removing noise etc.) and the mastering are done in The Record Plant, a multi-million dollar studio and mastering house.

all the stars

af_thefragile wrote: »

Hitting the nail right on the head there jtsuited!

This is exactly the problem right now. Music has become an occupation. Lately i've been seeing more and more bands/musicians filling their occupation as "musician". Its all bout making it big. Chasing the big rockstar dream. Becoming famous, getting laid, living the rock n roll lifestyle!

And in the midst of all of this the key element is missing. Art.
Music is no longer a form of art to express your ideas and emotions. Its a vehicle to gain success.

i kinda disagree..
we are on differant levels here i think - em, jt, paul & u sound like you are involved in this industry , if so you see things i do not.

but, music is pretty much one of my only ways of communication, explaining emotions and whats with me,. . i find it difficult to get my words right while talking. Song, poem is easier for me. Its my outlet. Its what i love, and wish (whole heartedly) i could have as my "job" if you will. Dedicate my days to this thing that i love. Isn't that what everyone wants?
I haven't the desire to be famous, i mean plenty of musicians are only known for their music and aren't treated like em, paris hilton/britney - just famous people.

But, its difficult to get into the music industry. I sing, i write all my own material. However, i live in the midlands and there is no outlet for me (i work 6 days so its hard to travel far)
Nobody wants you up at an open mic unless
1) you play guitar
2) you do covers and crowd pleasers ( and i have little interest in doing that, even the covers i would do would not be mainstream)

I do my music and put it up for the world to hear - i go to auditions, usually get far but never far enough. I enter competitions, all that. im ambitious. But if i got selected for x factor - i'd be happy as i just love to sing, but everyone would call you talentless or a product, sellout etc.

there is no winning really.

Its a really difficult one..
*lifts glass of vino*

www.myspace.com/oraclegurl

all the stars

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Good point !

Ya gets what ya pays for!

yup...

miju

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I know what you mean - but 3/5/7K isn't 'heavily' promoted.

out of curiosity OP what would you define as sufficient spend on recording? I know a band who spent an obscene amount of money for an unsigned band for recording for an average sounding album.

I also know of another band who recorded in Sun and spent no more than 3k in total on their album and it sounds miles better than the recording that was many , many multiples of it.

PaulBrewer

af_thefragile wrote: »

Think how punk music developed. So you don't need to be recording in million dollar studios to creating the perfect tracks. A true artist makes use of whatever resources he's got to create something amazing out of it.

Most of the Punk music remembered from punks first foray was nearly ALL recorded in
'million dollar' studios!

Sex Pistols and Clash in Wessex Studios,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wessex_Sound_Studios

and I know The Jam recorded in The Townhouse a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townhouse_Studios

PaulBrewer

miju wrote: »

out of curiosity OP what would you define as sufficient spend on recording? I know a band who spent an obscene amount of money for an unsigned band for recording for an average sounding album.

I also know of another band who recorded in Sun and spent no more than 3k in total on their album and it sounds miles better than the recording that was many , many multiples of it.

The 'Sufficient spend' is when the job's done right......otherwise it can be 'Pointless Spend'

The idea behind this post is there's no point in producing Shyt and expecting anyone to be interested.

Seems quite obvious to me!

PaulBrewer

all the stars wrote: »

But, its difficult to get into the music industry. However, i live in the midlands and there is no outlet for me (i work 6 days so its hard to travel far)

I do my music and put it up for the world to hear - i go to auditions, usually get far but never far enough. I enter competitions, all that. im ambitious.

there is no winning really.

Its a really difficult one..
]

Ha ! It's easy compared to how it was!!!

Excuse me while I get my Pipe and Slippers ....

I too am from the Midlands.

Fado, Fado when I started (not too long after punk!)

I not only didn't know anyone in the business I didn't know anyone who played rock music AT ALL - No one! I didn't even know anyone who knew anyone ...

There were no gigs outside of Dublin, no annual festivals, no rock radio shows apart from Dave Fanning on RTE.

There were no studios in the country at all apart from Dublin and one in Monaghan and whatever RTE had locally.

There were no local rock record labels.

There were no music equipment shops in Tullamore where I lived and one badly stocked record shop.

Naturally there was no Internet.

I bought my first guitar a 'Pearl' SG copy in Waltons (the only shop in Dublin!) for 162 old £s earned working in Dunne's Stores.

However, that was my last 'proper' job. Since then I've managed to make a good living from the Music Biz (mostly!)

It's EASY now. If you're good , you're half way there. That wasn't always the case.

Harumph ......:rolleyes:

af_thefragile

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Most of the Punk music remembered from punks first foray was nearly ALL recorded in
'million dollar' studios!

Sex Pistols and Clash in Wessex Studios,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wessex_Sound_Studios

and I know The Jam recorded in The Townhouse a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townhouse_Studios

I was talking about the whole NY/LA Hardcore scene with Minor Threat, Bad Brains, Black Flag and bands like that and the whole DIY attitude that went along with the genre and all the many many bands to come over the next two decades. Lo-Fi production was their signature. And there are loads of bands with lo-fi production that i love cuz of their music. Bands like Atari Teenage Riot and all those hardcore punk bands who didn't spend a few hundred thousands to produce their album. Most of them recorded and produced their albums themselves. In the underground you can get away with a half decent production job. As i say there's 3 types of productions. The good one, the bad one which sounds good and the crap one which always sounds crap.

My point is you don't need to sound like Coldplay in your first demo recording. We don't need an amazing production job. Just something decent that can show what the band is capable of. For my last band, we recorded two songs in this little box like music room in my college. Guitars and bass went through guitar rig and the drums were BFD, we picked a good spot in the room to record the vocals and it was all recorded and mixed on Pro Tools LE through an mbox on a laptop. We ended up with a track that sounded pretty damn decent in the level of production (much much better than all the other unsigned bands on myspace). The guitars were sharp, the drums had their depth, the vocals were powerful, quite a good job for an mbox and a box room.

So my point here is if you know what you're doing and your music is tight enough, you don't need a million dollar studio to sound upto your potential. You could sound pretty damn good on a laptop recording and production too. Its the quality that matters and it doesn't matter how you achieve it. You could shell out a couple of grand in a recording studio to achieve it or you could be creative and ingenious and achieve it on your laptop. Cuz again your first demo doesn't need to sound like Coldplay.

In case of unsigned bands i jude them on the basis of their music and composition cuz i know they can't afford good production and majority of musicians don't know a thing about production. I only judge signed bands on the basis of their production cuz production brings out what a band is truly capable of. For unsigned bands, just like to see what a band is potentially capable of. I like to see potential in the music of all these new bands. Too bad thats the one thing i can't find lately. All these new bands are just trying to rip off their influences. I can hardly see any innovation and originality. Just similar sounding bands one after the other. And thats what i say is missing. Musicians now days aren't artists. And if they are artists, too bad they're pretty crap!

Work on your art mate. Work on perfecting what your do. Make you bands music sound as tight as you can. Work on the composition, work on finding that uniqueness to your band. Work on innovation, work on doing things no band has done before. You've gotta be bold, you've gotta be more expressive with your music. And most importantly you've gotta make sure you don't sound like a band that already out there! If i want to listen to a good metal band, i'll listen to Metallica. If i want to listen to a good alternative band, i'll listen to Coldplay or Radiohead. I don't want to listen to any cheap imitations of these bands.

af_thefragile

all the stars wrote: »

i kinda disagree..
we are on differant levels here i think - em, jt, paul & u sound like you are involved in this industry , if so you see things i do not.

but, music is pretty much one of my only ways of communication, explaining emotions and whats with me,. . i find it difficult to get my words right while talking. Song, poem is easier for me. Its my outlet. Its what i love, and wish (whole heartedly) i could have as my "job" if you will. Dedicate my days to this thing that i love. Isn't that what everyone wants?
I haven't the desire to be famous, i mean plenty of musicians are only known for their music and aren't treated like em, paris hilton/britney - just famous people.

But, its difficult to get into the music industry. I sing, i write all my own material. However, i live in the midlands and there is no outlet for me (i work 6 days so its hard to travel far)
Nobody wants you up at an open mic unless
1) you play guitar
2) you do covers and crowd pleasers ( and i have little interest in doing that, even the covers i would do would not be mainstream)

I do my music and put it up for the world to hear - i go to auditions, usually get far but never far enough. I enter competitions, all that. im ambitious. But if i got selected for x factor - i'd be happy as i just love to sing, but everyone would call you talentless or a product, sellout etc.

there is no winning really.

Its a really difficult one..
*lifts glass of vino*

www.myspace.com/oraclegurl

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular there. Just a general theme to what i hear around lately.

And i checked your myspace, gotta say you do have quite a nice voice. What you need is a good producer to collaborate with.
But to point out a few things i herd in the tracks, there's nothing much innovative. If you're going for the rnb/hip hop thing, its not gonna work unless you're Rihanna or Leona Lewis. I like this one quote from the movie Be Cool where the producer goes bout Christina Milian having a great voice but what she needs is a good producer where he goes like "All the music is produced and processed so much, even i could be Jenny from the block!". Not exact quote but thats so true about the industry! Sure Rihanna has a great voice but even you could be singing Umbrella if that much production work would have had gone into your music.

So one thing about looking for that mainstream rnb sound is that its not gonna be easy. You're chasing something generic here, you've gotta be absolutely amazing, not saying you're not good but unless you can manage to win the x-factor or have some seriously good contacts in the industry, its not gonna be easy!

But its not all so dull and grey. Again you don't need to sound like Rihanna to make it. As i said what you need is a good producer to collaborate with and if you can't find any then hell learn some production yourself! Look at all these Dance tracks with female vocalists. Like cascada, DJ Rap, Everything But the Girl and all (don't know many cuz i'm not into that much). All you need is a groovy dance track, throw some of your vocals over it and you've got a great track! You don't need a million dollar studio for that. Just good production skill which if you're lucky to can find a good producer or if you're not as lucky, you've gotta try to learn it properly and do it all yourself!
The mainstream is clogged up but there's a lot of room in the underground!!

And it doesn't need to be all dance. You can certainly do something with your rnb influences, something new n innovative. Or you could do something like Frou Frou. You just need the right production job. And once you've got a few good tracks on an album, its an upward curve of doing gigs n promotion. But first, get a few solid tracks on an EP!

all the stars

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Ha ! It's easy compared to how it was!!!

Excuse me while I get my Pipe and Slippers ....

I too am from the Midlands.

Fado, Fado when I started (not too long after punk!)

I not only didn't know anyone in the business I didn't know anyone who played rock music AT ALL - No one! I didn't even know anyone who knew anyone ...

There were no gigs outside of Dublin, no annual festivals, no rock radio shows apart from Dave Fanning on RTE.

There were no studios in the country at all apart from Dublin and one in Monaghan and whatever RTE had locally.

There were no local rock record labels.

There were no music equipment shops in Tullamore where I lived and one badly stocked record shop.

Naturally there was no Internet.

I bought my first guitar a 'Pearl' SG copy in Waltons (the only shop in Dublin!) for 162 old £s earned working in Dunne's Stores.

However, that was my last 'proper' job. Since then I've managed to make a good living from the Music Biz (mostly!)

It's EASY now. If you're good , you're half way there. That wasn't always the case.

Harumph ......:rolleyes:

point taken. it is easier now, but...

all the stars

af_thefragile wrote: »

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular there. Just a general theme to what i hear around lately.

And i checked your myspace, gotta say you do have quite a nice voice. What you need is a good producer to collaborate with.
But to point out a few things i herd in the tracks, there's nothing much innovative. If you're going for the rnb/hip hop thing, its not gonna work unless you're Rihanna or Leona Lewis. I like this one quote from the movie Be Cool where the producer goes bout Christina Milian having a great voice but what she needs is a good producer where he goes like "All the music is produced and processed so much, even i could be Jenny from the block!". Not exact quote but thats so true about the industry! Sure Rihanna has a great voice but even you could be singing Umbrella if that much production work would have had gone into your music.

So one thing about looking for that mainstream rnb sound is that its not gonna be easy. You're chasing something generic here, you've gotta be absolutely amazing, not saying you're not good but unless you can manage to win the x-factor or have some seriously good contacts in the industry, its not gonna be easy!

But its not all so dull and grey. Again you don't need to sound like Rihanna to make it. As i said what you need is a good producer to collaborate with and if you can't find any then hell learn some production yourself! Look at all these Dance tracks with female vocalists. Like cascada, DJ Rap, Everything But the Girl and all (don't know many cuz i'm not into that much). All you need is a groovy dance track, throw some of your vocals over it and you've got a great track! You don't need a million dollar studio for that. Just good production skill which if you're lucky to can find a good producer or if you're not as lucky, you've gotta try to learn it properly and do it all yourself!
The mainstream is clogged up but there's a lot of room in the underground!!

And it doesn't need to be all dance. You can certainly do something with your rnb influences, something new n innovative. Or you could do something like Frou Frou. You just need the right production job. And once you've got a few good tracks on an album, its an upward curve of doing gigs n promotion. But first, get a few solid tracks on an EP!

im not into leona or Rihanna really, im far more interested in the lines of Gemma Fox / Ny (for starters), and will be going that direction if possible..
And as for learning yourself - i am trying, im terraible with computers, they generally break when im about- but i did 4 of those tracks on the myspace pretty much myself. So i'm getting there..
Was just making the point that its not all as simple as people say. Its still a closed shop in a way.

I got up in a local public house and did 5 r'n'b tracks... and people didnt seems to understand..
I got up and did a bjork track, same thing...
I got up and did my own tracks, same thing....
if you dont do covers and break out the acoustic here, you hardly get received. Its fairly small minded (apart from fellow musicially inclined who would always give anything original a bit of a cheer) These are just things i see, as someone in the crowd- or as on stage.

And i know a lot of musicians, and all of them say that. Round these parts originals aren't exactly welcome, unless they know your chorus already. Now i mean, "unknown" musicians... not talking about people who have original stuff in charts and all that..
Anyhow... we struggle on! And continue to do what we love, and feic em all :cool: (not being 2 serious about that)

www.myspace.com/oraclegurl

PaulBrewer

I was talking about the whole NY/LA Hardcore scene In the underground you can get away with a half decent production job.

Ah, when I think of Punk I think PUNK!

I disagree with your following points completely. I'm not talking about Art which is a given but your attitude to presenting it.

My point is you don't need to sound like Coldplay in your first demo recording. We don't need an amazing production job. Just something decent that can show what the band is capable of.

That's a very flawed attitude - your recording is what 'the band is capable of' no one cares how it's made, only how it sounds TO THEM. You're relying on listeners making allowances. Listeners don't, especially in the music biz.

(much much better than all the other unsigned bands on myspace).

Who cares? That's like saying you're the best footballer in your school - are you as good as whatsis face Rooney? That's the bar you should be measuring your work against. To top, not the bottom.

Cuz again your first demo doesn't need to sound like Coldplay.

But you should want it to, and do everything you can to make it so.

For unsigned bands, just like to see what a band is potentially capable of.

No one gives you leeway, nor should you look for it. No music fan listens to a band and says 'Oh, they recorded that badly but it could be good' People only go 'Like' or 'Dislike' or worse still 'Don't care'

I don't want to listen to any cheap imitations of these bands.

You said it Bro, but what you're describing Recording wise, is EXACTLY that.

af_thefragile

Yeah, but c'mon you've gotta be real here.
Like an unsigned band can't reach Coldplay's level of production. They're spending a good part of a million there to produce their album and because of that they're Coldplay!

But i do get your point. And i do drift off topic and from my points a lot of times.
I should have had completed that by saying you don't need to sound like Coldplay but you've got to do your best to try to sound as close to them production wise as you possibly can.

This dude once told me this really good thing once. He said when you record/produce a song, you should always be able to play it after a similar song which is on the charts and see that your song can be able to stand against the song from the charts.
Like if you've just produced a song for a Metal band, you should play it after something like Master of Puppets and see how well you song can be compared to Metallica's and stand against it.

A decent production job is not hard to achieve (not too expensive either) and will make your music sound good. A better production job will make your music sound better. But if you're just starting off a decent one will still make you sound pretty damn good.
And by decent i mean spend atleast a couple of grand worth studio time on a 6 track EP. Or if you know production and can do it at home on your computer, then great! Now days computers are powerful enough and you've got all these brilliant softwares, you can achieve a pretty good production job on your comp.

Like again i guess you all seem to be underestimating my level of a decent production. I value production really highly so to my ears a decent production job is basically something you can listen to and enjoy and not something that will make you go wow!, or if it does its only cuz of the music. Just a production where all the instruments are where they should be in the mix with the right amount of reverb n dynamics and all the instruments have been played and recorded flawlessly.
And to give an example of it i mean something like these guys: http://www.myspace.com/slackstring

Its a pretty simple and straightforward production, not very expensive and does all the right things. Focuses on the music more than anything else bringing out the true potential of the band. No need to spend tens of thousands.

And then I like to focus of putting up a powerful and tight act at a gig more than anything else. If people can like you, dance around to your tunes and enjoy you music at your gigs, they're gonna like you and will not care much about the level of production of your album as long as its above decent. And when the people like your music, you're gonna have no problem selling it!
The days of chasing record labels is long gone. You can bypass the AnR guy scrutinizing your music. Make use of the internet, go independent, sell your music online or sell your CD's at your gigs, make money through gigs. People don't buy CD's anymore anyway unless they're dirt cheap in a sale or they really really like the band. Then after you get big enough when you're doing big gigs or playing at big music festivals, people can recognise you and you're earning decent money through the gigs, then spend that money getting your album produced in a million dollar studio. Till then try to do the best job with what you can afford.

af_thefragile

all the stars wrote: »

I got up in a local public house and did 5 r'n'b tracks... and people didnt seems to understand..
I got up and did a bjork track, same thing...
I got up and did my own tracks, same thing....
if you dont do covers and break out the acoustic here, you hardly get received. Its fairly small minded (apart from fellow musicially inclined who would always give anything original a bit of a cheer) These are just things i see, as someone in the crowd- or as on stage.

And i know a lot of musicians, and all of them say that. Round these parts originals aren't exactly welcome, unless they know your chorus already. Now i mean, "unknown" musicians... not talking about people who have original stuff in charts and all that..
Anyhow... we struggle on! And continue to do what we love, and feic em all :cool: (not being 2 serious about that)

And to you i'll say you've just not gotta give up!
The people in the pub are most probably not there to listen to your songs. They just wanna have a good time. Playing in a pub is different from playing a gig. I do understand what you mean by people not caring about songs you play on stage at parties/pubs n all. I've felt it many times when i played a song for my college gig or something. They all love it when some bloke goes up to the stage n plays coldplay. Then i go up and play a song by Thrice and no one bothers. But they're not your target audience anyway. You don't need to get disappointed by them.

You've gotta first get a few solid tracks on a little EP. Put them up on Myspace, put them for a free download too if you want. You're promoting yourself here and you've gotta do everything you can to promote yourself. Try to get more and more people listen to your tracks, spread the cd among your friends or give it away after gigs, get a good fanbase going on your myspace, keep looking for gigs. Do gigs, keep doing gigs, keep looking for the bigger gigs all the time. Making sure your live act is tight and exciting and people are enjoying it (if they don't you've gotta change your act till you hit the spot where they start to enjoy it). Its all an uphill drive. Most people just stay at the bottom or are stuck midway. You've gotta keep constantly pushing ahead to reach the top or else gravity will pull you back down! The first few miles and the last few are the steepest.

PaulBrewer

af_thefragile wrote: »

Yeah, but c'mon you've gotta be real here.
Like an unsigned band can't reach Coldplay's level of production.

On the current album I'd agree - but on the first album? That technical quality is easily obtainable in Ireland.

all the stars

af_thefragile wrote: »

And to you i'll say you've just not gotta give up!
The people in the pub are most probably not there to listen to your songs. They just wanna have a good time. Playing in a pub is different from playing a gig. I do understand what you mean by people not caring about songs you play on stage at parties/pubs n all. I've felt it many times when i played a song for my college gig or something. They all love it when some bloke goes up to the stage n plays coldplay. Then i go up and play a song by Thrice and no one bothers. But they're not your target audience anyway. You don't need to get disappointed by them.

You've gotta first get a few solid tracks on a little EP. Put them up on Myspace, put them for a free download too if you want. You're promoting yourself here and you've gotta do everything you can to promote yourself. Try to get more and more people listen to your tracks, spread the cd among your friends or give it away after gigs, get a good fanbase going on your myspace, keep looking for gigs. Do gigs, keep doing gigs, keep looking for the bigger gigs all the time. Making sure your live act is tight and exciting and people are enjoying it (if they don't you've gotta change your act till you hit the spot where they start to enjoy it). Its all an uphill drive. Most people just stay at the bottom or are stuck midway. You've gotta keep constantly pushing ahead to reach the top or else gravity will pull you back down! The first few miles and the last few are the steepest.

Absoloutey.
thank you for just being open to my em, view i guess is the word?

I felt the need to em, expain what lots of people face - that unwilling audience, and you right, perserverance is key.

Also, back on point- good production is also a big thing, and to be honest, quality music & lyrics, an honest approach should be more important than the marketing.
Lots of bands are just mediocre, but well marketed, and the amazing bands dont always get the recognition they deserve.

spannerotoole

Aslan for one, A Band whos music is solely based on the same musical formula to the point that there is no creativity anywhere in the music. Example : Crazy World has been released how many times? This is has been released twice, given that the backing is exactly the same for both songs, could it be said that they released the same song 10 times?

el_tiddlero

um in answer to your original question OP - bands spend money on promoting their live shows because that's where they make their money.

there's no cash in recorded music no more, or have you not noticed the ever increasing amount of free downloading going on..

Andy Huxley (80s matchbox, vile imbeciles) would disagree with you re: quality, he believes that you should record your songs first, before you've even really practiced them as a live band - then, when people have heard the record and come to the live show, they get to see those same songs played BETTER than the recording... he views the album as a sampler, and the live show as where the music comes to life (see art waffle from numerous posters above).. pretty damn good philosophy imo..