Problem with friend/tenant

paulac

Hi,

I just wanted to get people's opinion on this. I'm finding it a bit awkward and I'm not sure what to do. Basically, my mam dies a few years ago, left me and my bro the house in trust. I was 17, he was 21. Money was in account to pay bills etc. Bro went travelling 2 years ago and I took a girl in that I was studying with from college for 380 a month including bills. She has her own single room, there's broadband, all mod etc. Ten minutes from O'Connell st and beside bout 10 bus routes. She's a nice girl, felt sorry for her cos she seemed to have had a rough time when she came here and she had a baby here about 5 years ago before I met her. The child is living back in Russia with her parents and her intention was to bring her over here to live once she got settled so thats why I thought it'd be good if she stayed with me, it'd be cheaper and comfy than where she was and saved her money so she could get a house and bring her daughter over. She's been working full time for two yaers, I was still in college and only started working 5 months ago full time.

I was told a few days ago that the trust is now finished and all direct debits for the bills have been cancelled and basically its all on me now which is fine. My bro is moving home in 3 weeks and he is going to college so he won't be able to contribute that much to bills etc.

My housemate has been going down in my estimation over the past 6-12 months because I find her to be extremely selfish but I don't think she even realsies it or is doing it on purpose, I think its just the culture. She gets her hair done every 2-3 weeks, spends a fortune on make up, shops in Karen Millen, crashes her car every month and gets it fixed, I'd buy food and because she's constantly on a diet says she won't eat anything, then the food is gone and she wouldn't put money towards it, especially if I get chinese and she says she'll pick!

Anyways, I'm ranting! I asked her if from October she would mind paying 25 a week towards bills, bringing her rent to 480 a month. I said that I would be putting 100 a week, my bro would be hopefully 50 a week, and her 25 a week. That way I would have 700 a month in an account to cover all bills and if we need to get carpets or if fridge breaks etc we would be fine. She pointed out to me that it was completly up to me and she had no choice but that I should remember that for the past 3 months she has been working in a different county and has only been in the house 2 nights a week (this is a 5 star hotel, 1st class trains, all meals paid for + expenses). She also asked if I was sure I needed that much a montha s it seemed like an awful lot and she never had to put aside 700 a month in her old place.

It feels really awkward, I thought I'd been helping her out the past two years, I beleived she wanted her daughter over here (i know now she doesn't have any intention in doing that even though she is getting child benfit and family income supplement) Her job thinks her daughter is in the country so they don't question her if she needs to leave for emergencies (hair!). I'm really getting frustrated, especially when she complians that her family expects her to spend time with her child when she goes home for a few weeks. A part of me wants to report her for benefit fraud but I know I won't!

Am I out of line asking for 25 euro a week towards bills. I think she'll argue about it and I don't know what to do. we do have a more personal than business relationship and she's quite hard to handle when the woe me hand is played. Is 480 a month for a single room including bills 10 mins from town too much?

Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanks

dr.bollocko

Get a new tenant IMO.

jon1981

give her a months notice and get someone else in on a proper arrangement, your not a charity stop acting like one...problem sorted.

Slow Motion

I agree with both posts above. This is a business arragement treat it as such, rent is going up because of inflation etc. You are giving her plenty of notice, if she doesn't like it tell her she can move on, BTW has she even given you a deposit?

Edit: Re the food, seperate cupboards and shelves in the fridge should sort that out!

beth-lou

Get a new tenant. Simple as. She wouldn't get a deal that good anywhere.
She is taking advantage. You sound like a lovely girl. Tell her that what you are asking for is very reasonable and if she has a problem withit you can find a new tenant who is willing to pay more.

Jack Sheehan

Find someone who wont take advantage of you as your tenant.

Gone West

Split the bills with her 50/50
And if the fridge breaks down, carpets need replacing, then the onus is on you as landlord.
Thats the only way to do it.

Doop

To look at it from a different side, in terms of letting out rooms, €480 a month for a single room isnt excatly cheap. Depending on where your living. Some of my friends pay the same for doubles or €500 with an ensuite, again though this is in the suburbs. Why not split the difference.. €420 .. (i think!).

Theres no way you should pay for her food tho, that is odd, clear out 2 presses one is yours one is hers.
"especially if I get chinese and she says she'll pick!"
^^ id tell anyone even my friends to f*ck right off if they said that!

Or if shes wrecking your head just get rid!
Also if you do get someone new.. you dont have to be there friend, (seems like this might be part of the problem)
Civil? yes
Friends? only if you want to be.

Wurly

Oh come on OP. This one is completely taking you for a ride. And why wouldn't she? You are making this so easy for her.

The bloody cheek - give her her months notice and get a new tenant who treats you with a bit of common decency and respect.

It concerned me that you thought you may be out of line to ask her for more money. Re-read your post - who does it appear is out of line here??

Best of luck with your new tenant. Fresh starts are always good.:)

Miss Fluff

€480pm, 10 minutes walk from O'Connell Street is more than reasonable. I don't understand why you aren't asking for a bigger contribution to the bills however, regardless of how much time in the house, bills should be divided equally between all tenants. You have been more than generous with her and you would have the room snapped up within a matter of hours. Shape up or ship out imo.

Mad Dog

I have to agree here with the previous posts, while you feel you are in a delicate situation here you owe her no debt of gratitude and I feel it is her who should be thanking you for your generosity.

Like the above said, tell her that the rent is going up in line with cost of living and if that is not good enough give her notice to leave and you will find a more reliable tenant at that price so close to town.

beth-lou

Doop wrote: »

To look at it from a different side, in terms of letting out rooms, €480 a month for a single room isnt excatly cheap. Depending on where your living. !

I think it's extremly cheap, considering the location, bills are included and she doesn't buy food.

bangersandmash

beth-lou wrote: »

Get a new tenant. Simple as. She wouldn't get a deal that good anywhere.
She is taking advantage. You sound like a lovely girl. Tell her that what you are asking for is very reasonable and if she has a problem withit you can find a new tenant who is willing to pay more.

Indeed, I couldn't agree more. It sounds like this girl is comfortable in her current situation, where she is taking advantage of your kind nature. As others have said, this is your financial future we're talking about - it's a business, not a charity.

I can't actually understand why she hasn't been paying bills for the last two years, instead of using up your trust money. Providing a flat rental figure including bills is quite unusual.

Also, how did you arrive at the figure of €25 a week for bills for her? In shared rented accommodation it is almost always the case that bills are divided equally between all parties. Take every bill (ESB, gas, eircom etc) and split it equally between the two of you - that's how much she should be paying. Given that electricity and gas bills are going to increase substantially this winter (30-40%), you really need to sort this out sooner rather than later. It's possible that she might take offence at your suggestion, so be prepared for the fact that you may need to look for a new tenant. Best of luck.

bangersandmash

Doop wrote: »

To look at it from a different side, in terms of letting out rooms, €480 a month for a single room isnt excatly cheap. Depending on where your living. Some of my friends pay the same for doubles or €500 with an ensuite, again though this is in the suburbs. Why not split the difference.. €420 .. (i think!).

As you say it completely depends on the location, and the quality of the accommodation. It's very difficult to say that the rent isn't reasonable without knowing the details, especially since bills are included. And comparing a city centre location to a superb is generally not useful.

OP, I would at also suggest looking on Daft to see what asking rents are for similar properties in your area, in case she decides to argue that her current rent is unreasonable.

Jigsaw

Tell her there's gonna be a bit of perestroika in your house whether she likes it or not!

Seriously though, don't become a mug. I learned the hard way in the past and now make sure it doesn't happen again. If she can afford to be shopping in Karen Millen and getting her hair done every couple of weeks, she can well afford to give you a fair contribution towards utilities.

Irishcrx

Given the location being so close to town and buses it's not really excessive, the bills should be split 50/50 anyway so she shouldn'y be counting that as rent what so ever that's the way it is in every house share, give her notice and get somebody who can act properly in an arrangement. I'm about to rent out two rooms in my house and there's no way I would stand for that.

kmick

Just split the bills down the middle. If she is the kind of person you describe and you charge her a set amount she will abuse leccy/gas/etc just to get back at you.

BC

I don't think you should be charging her 25 a week for the bills.
Charge her a flat monthly rate for the room and tell her she needs to pay her share of the bills, specifying exactly what bills you mean. It sounds like her share is 1/3 of the bills though not half. If your brother is moving in then the tenant should not have to cover your brothers bills. If you want to cover your brothers share then you pay 2/3 and the tenant pays 1/3.

Edited to add, i also meant to say - if she is away for a few nights thats her issue not yours. She still has to pay the same rent and the same bills.

dellas1979

Yea, you know I have to agree a little with the "against" crowd.

I think that €25 per week more is a little steep.

What would be a rough estimate be at the moment for bills per month

i.e what is she paying for?

Cable/digital
Broadband
Gas
Electricity

What are ye roughly paying per month for these?

seamus

BC wrote: »

I don't think you should be charging her 25 a week for the bills.
Charge her a flat monthly rate for the room and tell her she needs to pay her share of the bills, specifying exactly what bills you mean. It sounds like her share is 1/3 of the bills though not half. If your brother is moving in then the tenant should not have to cover your brothers bills. If you want to cover your brothers share then you pay 2/3 and the tenant pays 1/3.

Edited to add, i also meant to say - if she is away for a few nights thats her issue not yours. She still has to pay the same rent and the same bills.

+1 here.

While you're not a charity, neither is she - if your brother can't cover his costs, that's a problem for you and your brother, not for her.

She has no obligation to provide for "just in case" moments like replacing the carpets or fridge or TV or whatever. As landlord, responsibility for these items is yours, and she should not be expected to contribute towards their upkeep/replacement.

In fact, that's what her rent is for. As a landlord, you don't need to justify your expenses/outgoings to her. You tell her what the rent is and if she doesn't like it, you give her the months' notice. Assuming that the room isn't tiny and the house is a decent size, then €480 a month sounds reasonable. If she asks why, you say because you need to. You don't need to say any more than that.

Don't put a set figure on the bills. Split them three ways. That's fairest.

trio

In shared rented accommodation it is almost always the case that bills are divided equally between all parties. Take every bill (ESB, gas, eircom etc) and split it equally between the two of you - that's how much she should be paying.

Completely agree - this is the only way to do it to make it fair. But yes, everything would have to be split in three, not split in two.

But it does seem like you've created a bit of a monster. Could you brother (who knows her less) come to your aid? Once he moves in could he start "playing the landlord" for a bit?

In other words, would he mind being the bad guy and laying down the law? It's not ideal, but this is going to be an embarressing situation regardless - perhaps it's the lesser of two evils.

Victor

paulac wrote: »

She pointed out to me that it was completly up to me and she had no choice but that I should remember that for the past 3 months she has been working in a different county and has only been in the house 2 nights a week (this is a 5 star hotel, 1st class trains, all meals paid for + expenses).

It is little of your business that she is only there 2 nights a week, her room is still there for her.

Are you saying you include her food in the €380?

bangersandmash

seamus wrote: »

While you're not a charity, neither is she - if your brother can't cover his costs, that's a problem for you and your brother, not for her.

To be fair, she said her brother would be contributing €50 per week for "bills". The problem here that the OP's definition of "bills" is incorrect.

Just to spell it out again OP:

• When an actual bill (e.g. from ESB) arrives, each person living in the household should pay an equal share toward that bill. In my experience trying to estimate how much electricity each person uses will simply lead to petty arguments.
• Maintenance of the household is entirely the responsibility of the landlord (i.e. you and your brother). When a fridge or kettle breaks, or when you decide you want new carpets or curtains, it is up to you two only to pay for this. You can't expect your tenant to pay for a contingency fund, that's your job.
• It doesn't matter whether your tenant is there 7 nights a week, or whether she is away for months at a time. If she wants to pay by the night, she can book into a B&B or hotel. Remember she has the security of a guaranteed room and storage, even if she's not there.
• If she prefers not to share grocery bills, then keep your food entirely separate. Otherwise she'll take advantage.

Remember that you're effectively taking part in a "rent a room scheme", so your rent is tax free up to €10k, although it doesn't sound like that would be an issue here.

pickarooney

I would consider an overnight rent increase of 26% to be extortionate and would at the very least want a proper breakdown of what I was expected to pay so much extra money for. And I would refuse to pay for fixing a fridge in my rented accommosation, moreso to pay money in case something breaks - that's what rent money is for. What else she does with her money or where she gets it from should be no concern of yours, even if you were friends as opposed to landlord and tenant.

You should really stop letting her eat all your food though, that might be the first step in asserting yourself - if you can't get her to pay a few euros for dinner, good luck getting a rent increase, if it turns out to be merited. I guess utility bills have gone up there recently (still, by 400 euros a month?) and she might not be aware of it, so it would be better to split the bills according to some properly worked-out system than just asking her for more cash for no apparent reason.

I don't know what the legal minimum is in Ireland or whether you have a lease signed, but a month's notice is extremely short and seems highly unfair given that she hasn't done anything to merit eviction - she pays her rent, doesn't damage the house, isn't disruptive from your description of her.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how exactly you've been 'helping her out'. You've no rent to pay, are getting 380 euros a month in your pocket and a law-abiding (possible benefit fraud aside) tenant. It's hardly charity on your behalf, is it?

beth-lou

A breakdown? It is of no importance the fact that there is no mortgage. If she wants to charge €600 for the room she can. The rent is the rent and €380 is well below the average for the city centre. I think €480 is very reasonable.

bored and tired

why dont you look around some of the sites that advertise rooms for rent, you can check what others are charging for a house in similar location and similar standard, ie ensuite, modern house,

Then make a list of bills,
esb
gas
oil,
phone
broadband,
satellite

each one of these has to be paid 1/3 by the tenant on top of her rent.

other bills such as
insurance,
maintenance
repairs
renewals

each one of these has to be looked after by you and your brother as the landlords.

i would have thought for city centre location, you would be paying minimum €500 per month, plus bills, but thats why you should check other houses in your area to compare to.

bangersandmash

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't know what the legal minimum is in Ireland or whether you have a lease signed, but a month's notice is extremely short and seems highly unfair given that she hasn't done anything to merit eviction - she pays her rent, doesn't damage the house, isn't disruptive from your description of her.

This is a rent a room situation, so a lease doesn't apply and the protection for a tenant is negligible. From the government's own info site:
- You are not covered by landlord/tenant legislation in Ireland
- This also means that private tenants living in your principal home are living under a "Licensee Agreement" not a tenancy agreement and are really only entitled to "reasonable notice" if you choose to terminate the agreement.

Also I don't think the OP is threatening to kick her out as of yet, but rather restructuring the terms of the rent. An unreasonable increase would of course be unfair - choosing a figure based on equivalent rent levels would be appropriate, with actual bills treated separately.

pickarooney wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how exactly you've been 'helping her out'. You've no rent to pay, are getting 380 euros a month in your pocket and a law-abiding (possible benefit fraud aside) tenant. It's hardly charity on your behalf, is it?

It doesn't matter whether she's living mortgage free or indebted to the hilt, it's completely irrelevant. This is a business transaction. The current rent, including all bills over the last two years, sounds more than reasonable. Paying for her food, however, is certainly crossing the line into charity.

miss_shadow

To be honest, you cant mix business with pleasure. if its more personal than business, have a good talk to her. don't be scared to air your view on her situation. after all its you that has to live with her and your home is where you want to feel safe and get away from the hustle and bustle of the outside world, not to bring it in there.
I do feel that if she was a kindred spirit then you would not be feeling this way toward her. she does indeed seem really selfish as a woman myself with a child I cannot imagine EVER leaving my child in another country, even if i left my child to my parents , and for this many years ? seems like she is not a mother at all. a mother takes care of her child.
maybe you do not know all the facts though, I'm not sure . how do you know her family always ask her to spend time with her child?
you seem like a good person to take her in because of her said situation, Im sure there are plenty of women out there who deserve a landlord/friend like yourself.
Even if it did mean she had to leave, after you start talking and come to an arrangement,bet you will feel better about it after.


I think 25 euro a week is a bit steep though... what bills, electric and...gas...and food...and...on top of her rent??? :eek:

miss_shadow

bangersandmash wrote: »

It doesn't matter whether she's living mortgage free or indebted to the hilt, it's completely irrelevant. This is a business transaction. The current rent, including all bills over the last two years, sounds more than reasonable. Paying for her food, however, is certainly crossing the line into charity.

uh he did say they were more personal than business though.

the GALL

Charge her what you want. It's a buisness not a charity. If she starts to act up show her the door, it sounds like the 'friendship' has gone stale.
As another poster has said get your brother to play bad cop €480 for the city centre incl bills and food is for nothing. Imo she's taking the P1ss
on another note if she's not there 5 night's a week that not your problem

the_syco

paulac wrote: »

Am I out of line asking for 25 euro a week towards bills

Yes. Split Bills 3 ways. It may be more than €25 And if she's using an electrical radiator in her bedroom, the bills may go through the roof.

=-=

Re the food: put a lock on your cupboard. Tell her that you think mice are stealing the food.

You're a landlord occupier. She gives any grief about the month being too short, lessen it to two weeks. Try waiting for the bro to come back, though. He may be more inclined to lay down the law.

Oh, and report her for fraud. She nicks your food, steals from the government, takes your chinese... she sounds like a leech.

Victor

the_syco wrote: »

She ... steals from the government

Where does it say that?

If you mean the child benefit, that follows the worker, not the child.

the_syco

Victor wrote: »

Where does it say that?

If you mean the child benefit, that follows the worker, not the child.

Ah. Ok, my bad. How do you mean "follows the worker", btw? It's an odd phrase

LegacyUser

Hi Op ,reading between the lines would you prefere if she moved out alltogether and you had a fresh start with your brother coming back-maybe if your parents have passed away it would be nice to have the home to yourselves for a while,its just a suggestion because you seem to be fed up with the tennant,im someone who hates to share my comfort zone home with anyone but my OH,if you can find a way to afford it you could say that your brother is moving back and you want to have the house to yourselves and she needs to move out,you are not responsible for her and you deserve to live happy.

I dont think you are the kind of person to put a lock on your cupboards because you sound like it would be more uncomfortable to explain that,but if you are keeping her on try and discuss a fair deal,split bills,separate foods,washing powder etc look up some info on being a landlord for some tips and rules. xxx

BizzyLizzy

OP she's a user. Dump her AND report her for defrauding the system. It is the tax payers money she is scamming as well as yours!

In addition, have you considered the fact you are harbouring a criminal? :eek:

StormWarrior

Get a new tenant. Advertise somewhere that sensible/well-off people will see it. Get someone who will contribute an equal share towards the bills. If they have all mod cons at your place, maybe even charge a bit extra for yourself. If someone was constantly eating my food and not paying towards it, I would be furious. It's not your duty to subsidise this woman.

btw it doesn't matter whether she's in the house every night, or 1 night a month. You are not a charity, if she objects to paying an equal share, she can leave! I bet she won't find anywhere that charges her less for being out some of the time.

wasper

the_syco wrote: »

Yes. Split Bills 3 ways. It may be more than €25 And if she's using an electrical radiator in her bedroom, the bills may go through the roof.

=-=

Re the food: put a lock on your cupboard. Tell her that you think mice are stealing the food.

You're a landlord occupier. She gives any grief about the month being too short, lessen it to two weeks. Try waiting for the bro to come back, though. He may be more inclined to lay down the law.

Oh, and report her for fraud. She nicks your food, steals from the government, takes your chinese... she sounds like a leech.

If you have GF let her loose on the girl & she will set her straight.

mrsdewinter

Okay, don't report her for defrauding the system. The welfare will catch up with her soon enough, and there's no point helping the hand of karma out of a spirit of spite. And you can't exactly expect her to chip into a slush fund to cover eventualities like the fridge breaking down. It's your house, your fridge, so you should be prepared for those crises.
However, she should be contributing to the bills - simply split the ESB, the gas, the cable, the broadband by three. Phone is slightly different, but with itemised billing it's no problem ticking off who owes what.
And she certainly shouldn't be eating your food. You're not her mum, it's not your job to make sure she has provisions to dip into.
What about freshstart's suggestion? It gives you the option to leave this situation with your head held high. Gives her the opportunity for a graceful exit too...

Mrs OBumble

Agree that it's "fairest" to split the utility bills three ways.

But sometimes it's not practical, and it can mean that you all get the utility cut off just because one person refused to pay their share. Or that you send up paying the debts left by such a person. I got stuck that way once, and since then, I've made sure that I'm the lease-holder and have the bills in my name, estimated what bills were likely to be, then worked out what the weekly payment should be. You can use historical bills to see what the figures are likely to be. I usually put in a safety margin, and if the kitty gets a bit high, use it to pay for the food shopping or suchlike once.

As others have said, just the utilities are just power, gas, phone, broadband, cable, water if you're paying for this, TV licence.

Food, IMHO, should be all or nothing: ie you pay equal shares of every shop, or you have separate cupboards. I've always left takeaways and restaurant meals out of this though, because they're very optional.

If you are doing separate cupboards, you might want to include cleaning products, toilet paper and light-bulbs in the utilities. They add up.

OP: I am a little concerned by your statement that you've recently been told that the trust is over. Did you really not know when it was going to end? Have you got someone (financially wise family friend or relative, accountant ...) who can help you work out a budget for managing the house. As others have said, property-maintenance is your responsibility, and is indeed what the rent is meant to cover. You need to budget for it, and this needs some planning. You and your brother might also benefit from some long-term financial planning - presumably one of your will want to buy a house of your own one day, how does this affect the current house?

boomboombazza

when you kick her out, give me a shout, i'll pay alot more than her;)

NewFrockTuesday

She doesnt sound like much of a friend tbh. She sounds like shes taking full advantage of you. She might not even realise it seeing as a precedent was set by you, but I dont think Id like to live with her. You sound like a really nice person to live with but theres a line that you have to draw.

€480 for a single room in the city centre is about average I would have thought. If she doesnt want to pay the bills with you, then maybe she should look for a room further out. And then when she lives with people who dont molly coddle her, she might cop on a bit.

I think you should report her and I dont care if I get lambasted for saying it.

Lollipops23

report that wagon and kick her out right after!!!480 quid for city centre is peanuts,under no circumstances should she be eating your food-it's the unwritten rule of house share that you don't!!!she's no mate-kick her to the curb!!

MJOR

put an ad on daft and get her out!

I made the same mistake in similar circumstance and trust me get her out on your terms.

Then the next person that moves in charge them rent and bill as they arise.


A much better solution all round