Is there really a God?

johndaman66

My answer is I just don't know. I would really hope there is life after death but reason and logic is telling me otherwise...its just all too far-fetched for me to buy into it. Also whos to say one religion is wrong and the next is right or that any of them are right? Finally a question about the Irish catholic church as opposed to religion...How come in catholic Ireland not too many years back it was considered that you were on a highway to hell if you ate red meat on a Friday but now its pretty much acceptable?...What has God said or changed since?...How does religion tie into God in such an instance?

Oryx

To use a computer analogy, god is the internet, and religion is the browser religion to me is simply a man made framework by which we access our spirituality and god in whichever way you understand a god figure. As it is man made it has human flaws and misunderstandings.

Burial

johndaman66 wrote: »

My answer is I just don't know. I would really hope there is life after death but reason and logic is telling me otherwise...its just all too far-fetched for me to buy into it. Also whos to say one religion is wrong and the next is right or that any of them are right? Finally a question about the Irish catholic church as opposed to religion...How come in catholic Ireland not too many years back it was considered that you were on a highway to hell if you ate red meat on a Friday but now its pretty much acceptable?...What has God said or changed since?...How does religion tie into God in such an instance?

Why would you care if you found out if there was or wasn't a god? You'd still be you. Religion is influenced by society at the time. Just because there is other religions, doesn't mean their basic message still isn't the same. Yes, the idea of a God is far-fetched. Yes, how could God make virus' ,etc. (Presuming there is one) At the end of the day, if we all knew we were living to 100, would we really appreciate the life we had?

johndaman66

Oryx wrote: »

To use a computer analogy, god is the internet, and religion is the browser religion to me is simply a man made framework by which we access our spirituality and god in whichever way you understand a god figure. As it is man made it has human flaws and misunderstandings.

Thanks for reply Oryx but with all due respect it doesn't really attempt to answer my question. Appreciated all the same though.

Burial wrote: »

Why would you care if you found out if there was or wasn't a god? You'd still be you. Religion is influenced by society at the time. Just because there is other religions, doesn't mean their basic message still isn't the same. Yes, the idea of a God is far-fetched. Yes, how could God make virus' ,etc. (Presuming there is one) At the end of the day, if we all knew we were living to 100, would we really appreciate the life we had?

Thanks Burial. It would definately be nice to know if there was or wasn't a God all the same though. For one thing if there wasn't, lots of people would be spared an awful lot of time preparing for the next life by going to Mass and the like. I'm just totally at odds to the way religion works...being a lifestyle choice more than anything and the basic fundamentals changing as society changes. Should religion not be adhered to (again assuming there is a God) on the basis of Christs, the Saints and Apostles preachings and scriptures as opossed to society changes and demands?

MysticalSoul

I believe in God, but not the God that religion lead me to believe. For me, God is energy. God is neither male or female, but encompasses both in a way. I also believe we live many lifetimes. I do not believe that God is how I was lead to believe growing up, which was a God which used fear, guilt and shame to get us to abide by certain "rules". For me, the God I believe in is about love, however the only hell which exists is the hell which we create in this life.

okgirl

I also think that there is a God like Irishamethyst, not what we were preached about when growing up. As a young teenager I started to question my faith but more my religion I eventually decided that God was in me and every one. God was my conscience.

God is everywhere, it is the energy within us and the energy around us in the universe. I like to think that God is your own moral understanding and our inner belief system centred around love and respect for others and all living things. The proof for me is in believing. Like atracts like, therefore when I am good to others, positive in my outlook and grateful for what I have, I recieve all this back.

God is not religion which has been created by society in order to create power and control on society.

johndaman66

Very nice thoughts Irishamethyst and okgirl. Can to a certain extent agree with certain elements of yer point of view or at least recognise the approach ye are taking. Not sure would I agree with the following though okgirl.

okgirl wrote: »

Like atracts like, therefore when I am good to others, positive in my outlook and grateful for what I have, I recieve all this back.

To be fair some folk constantly get away with wrong doing while others are constantly wronged or lead very tough lifes and are never rewarded. Perhaps you mean in the next life (again, if there is one) though which is a different story.

I would however, agree that we have a duty to be good to our neighbour and the world in general though regardless of whether there is a God or not and think most atheists may well agree with me on that one.

I would certainly agree that religion is a means of controlling society though and it is a very recent phenomenon indeed when put in perspective... Man has being around for very very little time.... Most studies would suggest between 3 and 6 million years while the earth is estimated to be circa 4.6 billion years old. Are we likely to be around in 10 million years time I ask or if we are we likely to be following the preachings of Jesus Christ who only surfaced in the last 2,200 years. Will the species who follow on from us believe in God? When looked at this way religion looks very incredible indeed. Perhaps getting away from the initial point you may suggest. Albeit I think it is relevant all the same.

thebaldsoprano

Just the t'pence of a firm agnostic.

I think there's evidence to base arguments on both for and against the existence of God. This evidence falls well short of making a convincing argument for either side though.

Likewise, if there is a God, there's evidence that could be used to support both sides on whether this God gives a damn about us or not.

If this God does exist and gets a bit miffed at me around death time, I'll have no problem saying something along the lines of "hey, you gave me the faculties to question your existence and I used them, what's the problem?".

Also, on a personal level, I do quite like the uncertainty of the whole thing. This kind of uncertainty is what make life so damn interesting!

studiorat

Does it matter?

Oryx

studiorat wrote: »

Does it matter?

To some, yes.

IrishKnight

To me the idea of a god/gods/an god like energy is silly. God is used to explain away the unexplainable or what we think is unexplainable. God might offer hope to some, but to me it is a false hope.

I would really hope there is life after death

Why do you hope there is life after death? It is not as if there is life before well life...

thebaldsoprano

studiorat wrote: »

Does it matter?

Yes. It affects how you see the world and therefore your actions. For evidence of this look at the religious wars waged by every group from Atheists to Christians.

johndaman66

IrishKnight wrote: »

Why do you hope there is life after death?

As much as I try to live my life for the day thats in it and all that its a morbid thought that ones remains are left under the ground to rot and thats it... game over. Then again you may argue once you are dead it won't make any difference to you in the slightest what happens next but would be a nice thought to have in this life that something special will happen.

studiorat

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Yes. It affects how you see the world and therefore your actions. For evidence of this look at the religious wars waged by every group from Atheists to Christians.

I don't think does matter, other than the fact that it's such a big deal to so many people. Unless of course that you truly believe your actions are based on the expectancy of an after life. That's a poor basis for living primarily because it's entirely possible to have a God and no afterlife.

Belief in God assumes that the correct god is worshiped firstly and that God rewards this belief. If there is a God I hardly think it's particularly important to him that we believe in his existance or not.

Or maybe if we don't believe he ceases to exist? What then existed before our existance? And why did God hang around so long before we actually did exist?

If we do use Pascal's Wager ie it's better to believe as insurance, surely then such an omnipresent would see through this and therefore see it it as the lie that it is. No entry to paradise again?

I do however believe in a true altrusim and a natural empathy for each other, as soon as there is even a small self awareness there is that empathy. We all know what it's like to be human so we naturally feel for each other. I believe that this is our own internal God our sense of right and wrong as it were. All Religions would seem to have a common conception of what is right and wrong, they may differ, but essentially outside of traditional norms they are pretty similar in their outlook.

Religious wars are not evidence to this fact either and are irrelevant since most religious wars take place between people who actually believe in God or those who don't and fear religion. A common mis-belief of believers is that Athestists are afraid of religion. My fear is what Religion can lead to not peoples actual belief in a God or not. I'd wager that most "Religious" wars are more tribal and based around aquisition of territory and wealth.

Why would one religious group wage war on another group other than taking their land and natural resources, killing people in-order to convert them? Why bother? Religion in this case is used purely to rally the troops!!

To sum up if there is a God and an afterlife at least when my time comes I'll end up with like minded people and not the pious bunch. Which is your idea of heaven and hell?

thebaldsoprano

studiorat wrote: »

I don't think does matter, other than the fact that it's such a big deal to so many people. Unless of course that you truly believe your actions are based on the expectancy of an after life. That's a poor basis for living primarily because it's entirely possible to have a God and no afterlife.

I think you'll find that most good practicioners of the major faiths base their actions as much on their consequences in this life as the next one.

studiorat wrote: »

Belief in God assumes that the correct god is worshiped firstly and that God rewards this belief.

No it doesn't. God and the afterlife are two separate things.

studiorat wrote: »

If there is a God I hardly think it's particularly important to him that we believe in his existance or not.

There are plenty of people who'd disagree with that, assuming God is indeed a 'him' of course

studiorat wrote: »

Or maybe if we don't believe he ceases to exist? What then existed before our existance?

Darren Brown has tried this one already. Needless to say, he still exists.

studiorat wrote: »

And why did God hang around so long before we actually did exist?

I don't know. I really can't see any way of finding out short of asking him.

studiorat wrote: »

If we do use Pascal's Wager ie it's better to believe as insurance, surely then such an omnipresent would see through this and therefore see it it as the lie that it is. No entry to paradise again?

I dunno. I think again you might need to ask him.

studiorat wrote: »

I do however believe in a true altrusim and a natural empathy for each other, as soon as there is even a small self awareness there is that empathy. We all know what it's like to be human so we naturally feel for each other.

Yeah, same here. I believe people are basically good natured.

studiorat wrote: »

I believe that this is our own internal God our sense of right and wrong as it were.

Hmmm, not sure what an 'internal God' is but it sounds something like a conscience

studiorat wrote: »

All Religions would seem to have a common conception of what is right and wrong, they may differ, but essentially outside of traditional norms they are pretty similar in their outlook.

Yeah agreed on this, personally I'd out it down to us being good natured, but I'd be the first to admit I might be wrong on this.

studiorat wrote: »

Religious wars are not evidence to this fact either and are irrelevant since most religious wars take place between people who actually believe in God or those who don't and fear religion.

Yeah, fair enough. I guess the question I was answering was 'is religion important' rather than the one you asked which is 'is belief in God important'. It's perfectly possible to believe in God without having a religion.

I should've explained my point a bit better here.

studiorat wrote: »

A common mis-belief of believers is that Athestists are afraid of religion. My fear is what Religion can lead to not peoples actual belief in a God or not.

Given the lack of evidence either way, I don't think Atheism falls that short of being a religion.

studiorat wrote: »

I'd wager that most "Religious" wars are more tribal and based around aquisition of territory and wealth.

Aye, such an acquisition by Atheists against Bhuddists is currently under way in Tibet, I believe.

studiorat wrote: »

Why would one religious group wage war on another group other than taking their land and natural resources, killing people in-order to convert them? Why bother? Religion in this case is used purely to rally the troops!!

I'd agree with this, but let's not forget to include Atheism here aswell.

studiorat wrote: »

To sum up if there is a God and an afterlife at least when my time comes I'll end up with like minded people and not the pious bunch. Which is your idea of heaven and hell?

Actually, I believe both can pretty much happen in this life, but I really haven't thought about the afterlife that much tbh.

studiorat

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

I think you'll find that most good practicioners of the major faiths base their actions as much on their consequences in this life as the next one.

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

No it doesn't. God and the afterlife are two separate things.

I don't see your point. Why does this make it important for god to exist? I did state that it could be possible to have one without the other (god/afterlife). Again if there is no afterlife why then is it important whether god exists or not?

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

There are plenty of people who'd disagree with that, assuming God is indeed a 'him' of course

Yeah four or five. major religions for a start

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Darren Brown has tried this one already. Needless to say, he still exists.

So did Douglas Adams in a way, I know nothing of Darren Brown but I'm sure he does exist if you say so... Or are you telling me god exists?

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

I don't know. I really can't see any way of finding out short of asking him.

I believe he's dead, anyway my french wouldn't be good enough!

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

I dunno. I think again you might need to ask him.

I don't think I'll get an answer some how.

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Yeah, same here. I believe people are basically good natured.

Indeed

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Hmmm, not sure what an 'internal God' is but it sounds something like a conscience

My point being we are driven by this conscience

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Yeah agreed on this, personally I'd out it down to us being good natured, but I'd be the first to admit I might be wrong on this.

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Yeah, fair enough. I guess the question I was answering was 'is religion important' rather than the one you asked which is 'is belief in God important'. It's perfectly possible to believe in God without having a religion.

What like your own personal religion? Or believing in all religions?

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Given the lack of evidence either way, I don't think Atheism falls that short of being a religion.

Any organized belief system could be called a religion.

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Aye, such an acquisition by Atheists against Bhuddists is currently under way in Tibet, I believe.

Don't believe the hype!
A person should be free to practice religion if they so choose. But we are talking about political system that picked it's leader because they think he is reincarnated!!! They are plenty of people in Tibet who would prefer a less theocratic state, really. The Dalai Lama should disassemble his government-in-exile first if he is really interested in the peace in Tibet.

to quote...


" Before 1951, Tibet was under a feudal serfdom characterized by the dictatorship of upper-class monks and nobles. The feudal lords who constituted only five percent of the population possessed 95 percent of the means of production. Tibet was at that time not peaceful at all because the struggles between the slaves and their lords were very fierce.

Before 1951, there were no other religions allowed in Tibet. There is evidences that missionarys were killed in Tibet in the past.

Tibetans now enjoy their freedom of religions and are liberated from the feudal serfdom system. They live in a much better society than before.

It is obvious that British and America support to Tibet's independence movement is not for freedom or human right. It is purely a political game. It shows again and again their ambitious in taking over China and their continuous anti-Chinese sentiment, which has been exercised for a few hundred years."

I for one have serious reservations about so called liberals that would claim to support the Dali Llama.

again quoting from the Times this time, in relation to the arrests in Lhasa this week...

"The search for those involved has gathered momentum with the expiry at midnight yesterday of a deadline for the Tibetan protesters, who on Friday stabbed and hacked ethnic Han Chinese, hurled rocks and set fire to offices, shops and schools."

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

I'd agree with this, but let's not forget to include Atheism here aswell.

Am I starting to sense a touch of religious intolerance here. A spot of Pluralism (religious) is what's required. Don't lets start blaming Atheists on the past actions of communist and dictatorial regimes either. That's getting into "all Muslims are terrorists" territory...

Like I've stated already any organized belief system is a religion, personally I think atheism is a point of view rather than a religion. And again if there is no afterlife then why does it matter if God exists or not?

thebaldsoprano

studiorat wrote: »

I don't see your point. Why does this make it important for god to exist? I did state that it could be possible to have one without the other (god/afterlife). Again if there is no afterlife why then is it important whether god exists or not?

My point is that your statement "belief in God assumes belief in the afterlife" is incorrect. It's possible to believe in the following God/afterlife combinations:

a) believe in God and believe in the afterlife
b) believe in God and not in the afterlife
c) don't believe in God but believe in the afterlie
d) believe in neither God or the afterlife.

Combination b breaks your statement.

studiorat wrote: »

So did Douglas Adams in a way, I know nothing of Darren Brown but I'm sure he does exist if you say so... Or are you telling me god exists?

And I haven't read the hitchhikers guide and the like unfortunately.
Darren Brown's deadly. He's a 'mentalist' magician and plays a lot on peoples suggestibility. He's made people think he doesn't exist, and a lot more interesting stuff besides. One of his stunts was to 'convert' a bunch of non believers into believing in God. He did 'unconvert' them afterwards though

He reckons that a lot of the major faiths use similar methods to his to both convert people and keep them locked in a particular belief system.

His book 'Tricks of the Mind' is a brilliant read.

studiorat wrote: »

I believe he's dead, anyway my french wouldn't be good enough!

Jeepers. I respect that, but that'd be a particularly tough one to see from the perspective of a firm agnostic. Given that I don't reckon there's nearly enough evidence on that matter either way, getting enough to show that God both was alive at some point and is now no longer alive would be a very tough proposition.

studiorat wrote: »

What like your own personal religion? Or believing in all religions?

Dunno if it's possible to believe in all religions, a lot of them contradict each other in a lot of areas.

studiorat wrote: »

Any organized belief system could be called a religion.

Aye, agreed on that. Agnosticism is the only true church of course

studiorat wrote: »

Don't believe the hype!
...

Ah, in fairness now... Making assumptions about belief systems is one thing, but if you're going to make assumptions about the person you're debating with, at least be nice and make good assumptions

The reason I chose this particular example is that I did some traveling around Tibet and China a few years back, chatted with people from both sides and saw some less than pleasant stuff.

studiorat wrote: »

I for one have serious reservations about so called liberals that would claim to support the Dali Llama.

And I for one have serious reservations about discriminating against people based on their political views.

studiorat wrote: »

Am I starting to sense a touch of religious intolerance here. A spot of Pluralism (religious) is what's required. Don't lets start blaming Atheists on the past actions of communist and dictatorial regimes either. That's getting into "all Muslims are terrorists" territory...

Nope, just trying to drive the point that Atheists are just as susceptible to religious incitement as Theists. The propaganda used tends to be slightly different, but the effect is the same. If this came across as intorlerant, apologies. Agnostics are just as susceptible of course, but I'm not aware of any examples of Agnostics being incited in this manner.

studiorat wrote: »

Like I've stated already any organized belief system is a religion, personally I think atheism is a point of view rather than a religion. And again if there is no afterlife then why does it matter if God exists or not?

Well if God has some influence on or personal affairs, then it would matter.
To use an example, a farmer might pray for suitable weather for his crops. He mightn't be that bothered about the afterlife.

studiorat

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

My point is that your statement "belief in God assumes belief in the afterlife" is incorrect. It's possible to believe in the following God/afterlife combinations:

a) believe in God and believe in the afterlife
b) believe in God and not in the afterlife
c) don't believe in God but believe in the afterlie
d) believe in neither God or the afterlife.

Combination b breaks your statement.




Well if God has some influence on or personal affairs, then it would matter.
To use an example, a farmer might pray for suitable weather for his crops. He mightn't be that bothered about the afterlife.

I'm a bit confused here, I've stated twice already that god and afterlife are different didn't I? I mean my very first paragraph states this quite clearly...

"That's a poor basis for living primarily because it's entirely possible to have a God and no afterlife."


A farmer might Hope for suitable weather, if he gets out and does a rain dance, it's pretty certain that he's going to believe in some sort afterlife.

So we have another list of answers possible...
God exists and makes it rain
God exists and it just rains anyway
God doesnt exist and it rains etc...

The important answer here if our farmer doesn't believe in an afterlife is that it rains period. As long as the weather stays good it doesn't matter where it comes from...

So we have a situation that if our farmer prays for good weather god returns the favor of these prayers by making it rain, thus god is rewarding belief!

If God has no actual interaction with us (afterlife, divine intervention, etc.) then his existance is irrelevant.

thebaldsoprano

studiorat wrote: »

So we have a situation that if our farmer prays for good weather god returns the favor of these prayers by making it rain, thus god is rewarding belief!

This is the original point I was trying to make.

Our farmer's believe in God affects how he sees the world and therefore his actions.

These actions could be prayer, a raindance or killing people who believe in a different God to his one.

Hence the answer to your original question of "does it matter?" would be 'yes'.

studiorat

Obviously peoples actions are important. But don't confuse this with the actual question of does God exist? And how important is that fact. The truth of his existence or non existence is still irrelevant. Unless of course you actually believe in the existence of a supreme being then it becomes important to you that he does exist.

Whether he exists or not people who actually believe in a god will do as they see fit. Jews will do as Jews do, Christians will behave like Christians and so on. They will behave in the manner of their tradition obviously believing in god.

My point again is it still doesn't matter if he exists or not. Believers will do what they do believing that they are right regardless or whether they actually are or not.

I think you are confusing the importance of peoples actions with the importance of the existence of god.

thebaldsoprano

studiorat wrote: »

I think you are confusing the importance of peoples actions with the importance of the existence of god.

I've made more than a little effort at this point trying to highlight how someone's beliefs might affect their actions.

If our farmer's belief in God causes him to kill someone then both the belief and the action are important.

To use an analogy (not to be taken for a logical equivalence), if a paranoid schizophrenic kills someone then both his state of mind and his action of killing someone are important.

thebaldsoprano

Actually, just thinking about this, we may be going along two slightly different lines here, correct me if I'm wrong.

a) Is the matter of whether God exists or not important?
b) Is it of any importance whether God exists or not?

For me, given my line of argument above, the answer to question a would be 'yes'.
Given the lack of evidence on the matter, the answer to question b would be 'no'.

thebaldsoprano

Hmmm, a nicer way of putting the above post would be:

The question is what is important, not the answer.

Dave!

No, there's no god. It's an idea that has been made up by most/all civilizations throughout history to serve certain psychological purposes. As scientific knowledge advances, god recedes further from the physical world, hence why there's no longer any gods of thunder or rain or fire, etc. Now it's the intangible god of morality and consciousness and creation. Science will carry on doing its work and probably explain morality through evolution (this is already making sense), and consciousness through neuroscience. I can't see us explaining the creation of the universe convincingly enough for a long time, so that's where god will stay.

There's also the god of the ignorant -- those people too lazy to try to understand, or too stubborn to accept, evolution by natural selection -- and this is the god that creationists worship.

Dagon

When talking about this concept of God, it's so easy to get caught up in so many endless questions about religion, politics, whether he exists, whether god matters, what happened in the past and so on.

Usually we are trying to understand this concept of a supreme being based on what we have seen in the past, what we have read, what other intelligent, educated people have uncovered or researched, and all that stuff...

But how about this; leave behind everything you know for one moment. Everything you've read. Forget about this concept of god. Forget about all these organised religions who have created all these images and ideas about what god is, and what he stands for. Forget the books, the politics, history... and let the mind grow more silent. Go into those spaces between the thoughts... make them bigger. You will find out the truth for youself

I'm not going to say whether there is a god, or there is not. But I will say one thing; I've had some unreal experiences that have changed my life, warmed my heart and made me truly believe in the power of love, and of peace. I don't want to label all that, but I will say this - there isn't smoke without a fire...

So find out the truth for yourself! Don't believe anybody else. Experiment, experience, leave the thinking mind behind... just open up. And you can find find out why there is so much history and confusion behind this word "God".

Don't believe any man who tells you that there is a God.

Don't believe any man who tells you there isn't.

They're both fools, and neither of them want you to grow, open up, experience, or discover the truth for yourself... not somebody else truth, your own truth

Dave!

^
Well that's all well and good, but I (personally) am interested in the objective truth rather than my own subjective truth! Not everyone is though, which is fair enough really

thebaldsoprano

Dagon wrote: »

Don't believe any man who tells you that there is a God.

Don't believe any man who tells you there isn't.

Agreed with this, but debating the matter is an excellent way to explore the subject aswell.

Dagon

Yes I agree, there is no harm in talking about it. But it's a universal yet subjective thing. It's beyond thought, beyond concept, and I don't know if it's possible to get anywhere close to understanding it through words, books, ideas, concepts, thoughts. So much damage has been done by all of those things... The saintly people who spoke about god or spiritual states / visions in the past went into very silent, spiritual states of mind to do that. They were quite likely to have been very enlightened people, and wanted to share their experience. Their words or deeds were misinterpreted by various organisations with vested interests (power and money mainly) who tried to grasp a particular persons experience with words or doctrines...

So all I was saying is, we can still have a dialogue on it.. and I often do with friends, and it often gets very interesting... but it can't really lead anywhere, because what we're discussing is a state beyond thought, so it's actually a contradiction.. you're trying to understand a state that is beyond thought.. by thinking about it and conceptualising That's what we humans like to do... and we do it all the time. I think the discussion related to the human relationship with God is interesting in itself...

thebaldsoprano

Dagon wrote: »

Yes I agree, there is no harm in talking about it. But it's a universal yet subjective thing.
...

Yeah, it depends on the person I guess, some prefer an introspective approach while some, like myself, like a good hard debate. Nothing right or wrong with either of these approaches.

Interestingly the four main schools of Buddhism in Tibet place a lot of emphasis on both meditation and debate. Their debates are meant to be very lively and vigorous indeed, so much so that it's often translated as 'jousting' rather than debating. I'd have loved to have seen one of these while there but it's rather difficult for a silly westener

Dunno what else to say really, but I can recommend two really good books on the introspective approach:

Tricks of the Mind - Derren Brown
Third time I've recommended this one on boards, looks at the scientific approach to the matter. Derren Brown is a very interesting chap.

The Inner Experience - Thomas Merton
This guy is a Trappist monk who writes very well about Christian mysticism. It's a bit strange really how Buddhism seems to be taking a hold while Christian mysticism is getting overlooked - I find this approach much easier to understand than Buddhist concepts.

cue

johndaman66 wrote: »

My answer is I just don't know. I would really hope there is life after death but reason and logic is telling me otherwise...

Not sure about life after death. It seems very unnecessary.

I have tried not to believe in a god for as long as I can remember. I can manage about 30 seconds and my mind gives in to the belief. It bugs the hell out of me.

thebaldsoprano

cue wrote: »

I have tried not to believe in a god for as long as I can remember. I can manage about 30 seconds and my mind gives in to the belief. It bugs the hell out of me.

Interesting, I tried that one aswell and couldn't manage it either. Neither could I manage the belief bit

Timara

I believe there is a God and I was quite religious in my younger days. But eventually I began to feel that the term 'God' came with just too much baggage. So now I use the term 'Power of the Universe' as it a lot less specific (and I always had a problem with the 'God as male' bit anyway) and can be used to express the underlying power that is in everything. Maybe it isn't so personal? But you can always read the writins of the great teachers to get some idea of God and spirtiuality. I'm currently reading The Power of New' which I find helpful.

hiorta

God, Allah, Jehovah, Jesus, Buddha, The Great Spirit, The Source of All. Love and many more.
All trying unsuccessfully to describe the Supreme Being.

As we grow, names become less and less important, until the Spirit within all Life awakens the Soul.
Then there is no need for names.

Dave!

hiorta wrote: »

God, Allah, Jehovah, Jesus, Buddha, The Great Spirit, The Source of All. Love and many more.
All trying unsuccessfully to describe the Supreme Being.

As we grow, names become less and less important, until the Spirit within all Life awakens the Soul.
Then there is no need for names.

Woah. Deep.

studiorat

I frequently order from the Universal Catalogue. Sometimes it arrives sometimes it doesn't.

Dagon

hiorta wrote: »

God, Allah, Jehovah, Jesus, Buddha, The Great Spirit, The Source of All. Love and many more.
All trying unsuccessfully to describe the Supreme Being.

As we grow, names become less and less important, until the Spirit within all Life awakens the Soul.
Then there is no need for names.

That is basically what I was trying to say earlier, but I think you've put it even better :cool:

As for the comments on Christian Mysticism - if you look at the works of Anthony De Mello, you will find a man who brought together christian mysticism and buddhism. He worked in both areas, and discovered many similarities... so much so, that he doesn't really make much of a distinction between buddhism, christianity, etc. it's all the same source, as hiorta has said [much to the distate of the catholic church whom employed De Mello!].

kelly1

johndaman66 wrote: »

Finally a question about the Irish catholic church as opposed to religion...How come in catholic Ireland not too many years back it was considered that you were on a highway to hell if you ate red meat on a Friday but now its pretty much acceptable?...What has God said or changed since?...How does religion tie into God in such an instance?

Hello John, I haven't read all the replies so sorry if this has been answered already. The answer is that the Church has the God-given power to bind and loose i.e. to decide what is morally acceptable and what isn't. This has a scriptural basis and can be found here:-

Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Matthew 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

The first was addresses to Peter alone and then to the apostles collectively.

As regards the existence of God, scripture has this to say:

Luke 11:9 And I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. 10 For every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

Hope this helps.

God bless,
Noel.

ironingbored

cue wrote: »

I have tried not to believe in a god for as long as I can remember. I can manage about 30 seconds and my mind gives in to the belief. It bugs the hell out of me.

Get over it!

ironingbored

Answer: No

1. Who wants to live forever worshipping the egomaniacal control freak so insecure as to crave perpetual adoration? As Hitchen's puts it, "at least you can fcuking die in North Korea". Whereas the celestial dictatorship is really hell forever.

2. Even if there is a god (0.0000000000000000001%), he/she/it surely will not resemble the misogynistic and cruel individuals of the three main abrahamic monotheistic religions.

3. Let's all live our present lives to the fullest now and make it our goal in life to better understand the world we live in without silly recourse to magic and the supernatural. (As in the above post! he said, she said, where, there, everywhere....)

ironingbored

kelly1 wrote: »

As regards the existence of God, scripture has this to say:

Luke 11:9 And I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. 10 For every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

Are you seriously trying to say that the above proves anything about the existence of a supernatural deity?

kelly1 wrote: »

Hope this helps.

It doesn't.

kelly1

ironingbored wrote: »

Answer: No

1. Who wants to live forever worshipping the egomaniacal control freak so insecure as to crave perpetual adoration? As Hitchen's puts it, "at least you can fcuking die in North Korea". Whereas the celestial dictatorship is really hell forever.

2. Even if there is a god (0.0000000000000000001%), he/she/it surely will not resemble the misogynistic and cruel individuals of the three main abrahamic monotheistic religions.

3. Let's all live our present lives to the fullest now and make it our goal in life to better understand the world we live in without silly recourse to magic and the supernatural. (As in the above post! he said, she said, where, there, everywhere....)

Were your spitting venom when you wrote this? That is such a twisted post!

ironingbored

kelly1 wrote: »

Were your spitting venom when you wrote this? That is such a twisted post!

Absolutely not. I was actually quite serene especially on point three.

What are your opinions on points 1 & 2?

I believe the god of the old testament is exactly how is described above.

Poloman

My opinion:

There is no God.

It is the greatest story ever told. It is a way of keeping kids good and humanity. "If you are bold you will spend forever burning in flames and in pain". Come on.. seriously.. think about it.

There are so many different gods in so many parts of the world. indians pray to cows that we chomp on every day. Whats Holy about a cow? Just an example.

Why are rules being changed in Catholic society.. eg.. before you werent allowed even eat meat every friday, now you can, contreception.. women priests etc.. the list is endless. Things change as they need to keep crowds coming to churches to get our money at the plate collection. The church had this country on its knees for years abusing people, naming how much the donate to the church every week on the pulpit. And these are the people involved in spreading the word of the lord? (Yes most are good)

I am a complete non-believer. I believe that there could be life elsewhere in this universe but no god. How did things come into existence? I have no idea. one thing is for sure. People are afraid of what they dont know/understand. And being told to believe in God makes people do so rather than risk the fear of going to something called Hell. Its rubbish. Complete fabrication.

I dont laugh at anyone who believes though. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that.

kelly1

ironingbored wrote: »

Absolutely not. I was actually quite serene especially on point three.

What are your opinions on points 1 & 2?

I believe the god of the old testament is exactly how is described above.

My opinion is that God doesn't change but that His people have been changing like unruly children being chastized and formed into mature adults. The istuate has also changed since His Son died on the cross to atone for our sins.

The bible is essentially the story of how God leads His people towards the ideal that is His Son Jesus.

I believe that God is loving and corrects us like any good father would correct unruly children. God wants us to mature spiritually so we reach the point where we leave all selfishness behind and live to love God alone. God is the only true good since all goodness comes from God directly and through others.

kelly1

Poloman wrote: »

It is the greatest story ever told. It is a way of keeping kids good and humanity. "If you are bold you will spend forever burning in flames and in pain". Come on.. seriously.. think about it.

The primary pain in hell, you should know, is separation from God. All good comes from God so separation from God means eternal loss/evil/remorse etc. Clearly natural fire can have no effect on a soul so the fire must be supernatural.

Poloman wrote: »

Why are rules being changed in Catholic society.. eg.. before you werent allowed even eat meat every friday, now you can, contreception.. women priests etc.. the list is endless. Things change as they need to keep crowds coming to churches to get our money at the plate collection. The church had this country on its knees for years abusing people, naming how much the donate to the church every week on the pulpit. And these are the people involved in spreading the word of the lord? (Yes most are good)

OK so the Church has relaxed the rules on fasting but it still encourages it. The Church has the power to bind and loose which you'll find it in the bible (Matthew 16:16 and 18:18). But I'm not aware of any changes as regards women priests and contraception? Please tell me what else has changed? I think you'll find there's very little!

Poloman wrote: »

I am a complete non-believer. I believe that there could be life elsewhere in this universe but no god. How did things come into existence? I have no idea.

I really think you should think about it! Something that has a beginning must have a cause. So you either have an infinite chain of cause and effect or you have a chain which begins with something which has always existed and has no creator. Which in all honesty do you think is more likely?

Dagon

Poloman, how do you know there is no God? You seem very convinced about that, but don't believe it because "The God Dellusion" told you... find the proof for yourself, and then believe it. Can you prove there is no god?

"If you are bold you will spend forever burning in flames and in pain". Come on.. seriously.. think about it.

You don't need to wait. A lot of people on this planet are already burning in flames... just look around you. The human body contains all the elements, fire being one of them. We condemn ourselves to this fire through our actions, and you can actually feel it, right here, right now. The burning is inside, and we multiply it, and we continue on the deep suffering. You don't need to wait for an afterlife, you can go very far into hell and far from the light right here, right now...

Dave!

Dagon wrote: »

You don't need to wait. A lot of people on this planet are already burning in flames... just look around you. The human body contains all the elements, fire being one of them. We condemn ourselves to this fire through our actions, and you can actually feel it, right here, right now. The burning is inside, and we multiply it, and we continue on the deep suffering. You don't need to wait for an afterlife, you can go very far into hell and far from the light right here, right now...

What the hell are you talking about?